I'm lost..

[JulieB67]

Me thinks that somewhere along the line you were seduced by some posttrib commentators/influence... and did not come up with all that rationale on your own.

Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

I was "taught" seduced if you will about the rapture in the church I grew up in. It wasn't until the early 2000's that someone said it wasn't biblical. I chose at that time really study for "myself" to show myself approved as we are taught to do so. I only had to read Matthew 24 and Paul's teachings in both of his letters to the Thessalonians on the subject in the simplicity that they are written to see that Christ comes back only once at the last and 7th trump.

And when I read the rest of the word I didn't see anything that refutes that.

Why would I give up my life time beliefs if it wasn't true? I wouldn't. I choose to believe what is written.

In fact, a lot of my beliefs were not biblcial, that the 144,000 are only Jews, when in fact only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah and so on.....

Hell being eternal when Christ himself says that the second death is the death of the soul (Matthew 10: 28)

But those are just some of the false doctrines along with the rapture I had been taught, not learned from the written word.

If Christ taught a rapture I would certainly believe it, without a doubt.

 

[iamlamad]

Hi there I'm jamie from Blackburn Lancashire in the UK.. I have been a Christian for a few years now but I have got to admit that I don't understand all things eschatology. I have been reading some books and articles by Joel Richardson and a few other people. For example t issue regarding the return of Jesus.. What is the correct belief? I have read that Jesus will come back to Israel to rule for a thousand years. What I don't understand is what is true. Is that before the creation of a new heaven and earth. And if everyone sees his return in the clouds will we be able to speak with him like a regular man. And what about the rapture. Who believes what and why.. Do different denominations share different ideas about this.. Can anyone tell me what they know about it all.. I feel like I'm a bit silly for even asking this like i should know it all already but I don't.. Thanks anyway Jamie

My friend, try reading the scriptures with an open mind! In Revelation, what comes before what? God was not trying to hide things, but to reveal them. In Rev. 20 the 1000 years comes before the white throne judgment where the old heaven and earth disappear. BELIEVE John and His chronology!

In General, anything written in a given chapter will happen in real life before the events in a later chapter and after the events written in a previous chapter. You can pretty much take that to the bank, so to speak. just be aware that John did use some parentheses. And be aware that from chapter 13 on, there are 5 parallel countdowns to the end of the week going on at the same time - and then John's narrative also at the same time.

Finally, know this: if you lined up 100 preachers that teach on Revelation and ask them any given question on Revelation, you are likely to get 110 different answers. You see, some will not give their answer, but say what others think. My suggestion is to read and read and read, pray in the Spirit, and ask God. Then WAIT for Him to answer.

I will give you some helps in your study: The 70th week is "marked" by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it.

DON'T MISS the importances of the BOOK in chapter 5. It is my believe that the book actually contains the 70th week. But it cannot be opened unless someone is found worthy (chapter 5). John is giving us the context of the first seal and that context is the time of Jesus ascending and sending the Holy Spirit down: around 32 AD. That is when Jesus got the book into HIS hands and began opening the seals. What then was righteous on earth in 32 AD? (the white horse)

When all seals are opened, just KNOW: the BOOK is opened. John does not mention it.

Where are we NOW in the book? It is not difficult: the 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age. They must wait for the final martyr. The 6th seal is future: the start of the Day of the Lord. We, the church, have been waiting at the 5th seal for around 2000 years now!

 

[Adamina]

Hi there I'm jamie from Blackburn Lancashire in the UK.. I have been a Christian for a few years now but I have got to admit that I don't understand all things eschatology. I have been reading some books and articles by Joel Richardson and a few other people. For example t issue regarding the return of Jesus.. What is the correct belief? I have read that Jesus will come back to Israel to rule for a thousand years. What I don't understand is what is true. Is that before the creation of a new heaven and earth. And if everyone sees his return in the clouds will we be able to speak with him like a regular man. And what about the rapture. Who believes what and why.. Do different denominations share different ideas about this.. Can anyone tell me what they know about it all.. I feel like I'm a bit silly for even asking this like i should know it all already but I don't.. Thanks anyway Jamie

I recommend reading "the Book of the life of the Lamb".
Preston Eby is a favorite commentator of mine but he is not well know among most Christians today. Some of his commentaries are quite lengthy and even I have yet to read thru all of them. I also look at dozens of other commentators.

Here are the links of you and/or others are interested:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1
THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads the names of blasphemy. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:1,8).

According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death.

But God is also producing a book – a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.

There is a branch of literature known as biography. Biographies are the histories of individual lives, an account of a person's life, written or told by another. If the author of the book is the person about whom it is written it is called an autobiography – the story of one's own life written by oneself. The Book of Life is called "The Book of The Life of The Lamb."
If I were to give you a book entitled THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF GEORGE WASHINGTON, you would understand at once that it is a biography or an autobiography of the life of the first president of the United States, George Washington.................................
=====================

JulieB67 said: ↑
Hi Jamie, I'm a newbie at this forum but I agree with Davy's post. First and foremost read and study for yourself.

Douggg said: ↑ Me thinks that somewhere along the line you were seduced by some posttrib commentators/influence... and did not come up with all that rationale on your own.

Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

I was "taught" seduced if you will about the rapture in the church I grew up in. It wasn't until the early 2000's that someone said it wasn't biblical. I chose at that time really study for "myself" to show myself approved as we are taught to do so. I only had to read Matthew 24 and Paul's teachings in both of his letters to the Thessalonians on the subject in the simplicity that they are written to see that Christ comes back only once at the last and 7th trump.

And when I read the rest of the word I didn't see anything that refutes that.

Why would I give up my life time beliefs if it wasn't true? I wouldn't. I choose to believe what is written.

In fact, a lot of my beliefs were not biblcial, that the 144,000 are only Jews, when in fact only 10,000 are from the tribe of Judah and so on.....

Hell being eternal when Christ himself says that the second death is the death of the soul (Matthew 10: 28)

But those are just some of the false doctrines along with the rapture I had been taught, not learned from the written word.

If Christ taught a rapture I would certainly believe it, without a doubt.

Well said.........

 

[Adamina]

lsorry, double post....my internet is laggy.........

 

[iamlamad]

Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

I was "taught" seduced if you will about the rapture in the church I grew up in. It wasn't until the early 2000's that someone said it wasn't biblical. I chose at that time really study for "myself" to show myself approved as we are taught to do so. I only had to read Matthew 24 and Paul's teachings in both of his letters to the Thessalonians on the subject in the simplicity that they are written to see that Christ comes back only once at the last and 7th trump.

And when I read the rest of the word I didn't see anything that refutes that.

Why would I give up my life time beliefs if it wasn't true? I wouldn't. I choose to believe what is written.

In fact, a lot of my beliefs were not biblcial, that the 144,000 are only Jews, when in fact only 10,000 are from the tribe of Judah and so on.....

Hell being eternal when Christ himself says that the second death is the death of the soul (Matthew 10: 28)

But those are just some of the false doctrines along with the rapture I had been taught, not learned from the written word.

If Christ taught a rapture I would certainly believe it, without a doubt.

Julie, Which Jesus was alive, it was OLD COVENANT time. He was teaching Jews. He was sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, NOT to Gentiles. After His resurrection He gave ample time for Israel to accept Him as their Messiah, which they refused. (Of course God knew this ahead of time, but He always gives men the right of choice.) Finally, He sent Paul to the Gentiles, and the 11 to the lost sheep of Israel.

Since this is true, the Gentile church of today should be spending most of their study time in the Pauline Epistles: they are written to the Gentile church of today.

In fact, the rapture verses are written pointed straight at the Gentile church. It was a SECRET known only to God until revealed to Paul. Therefore, you are not going to find much rapture knowledge ANYWHERE in scripture but in what is written by Paul. John 14 is an exception.

Did you just not know that the "gathering" in the Olivet discourse gathers from both heaven and earth? How then could it possibly be Paul's gathering? It could not! Paul's gathering gathers ONLY FROM EARTH. Did you just not understand Paul, that his rapture will come a moment before the start of Wrath? In REvelation that is at the 6th seal, chapter 6, NOT after the days of GT that end in chapter 16!

I am challenging you to take a closer look.

By the way, as a postrib believer, HOW are you going to get to heaven for the marriage and supper?

 

[iamlamad]

Me thinks that somewhere along the line you were seduced by some posttrib commentators/influence... and did not come up with all that rationale on your own.

I think this is HIGHLY likely!

 

[iamlamad]

Christ says he has foretold us all things and he indeed has. I suggest studying

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Christ lays out everything perfectly about the end times. If Christ had taught a secret rapture it would be there but it's not.

The rapture was secret hidden in Father God until Paul finally got born again. It was then revealed to Paul AFTER Paul, instructed by God, turned to the Gentiles. Therefore it would be impossible for Jesus to mention it during His life. Why? Because Paul tells us it was a secret. You have been led astray. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus is answer the question asked by Jewish men about the end of THEIR age. This is absolutely proven when Jesus spoke of the abomination. That is the event that will divide the 70th week. And Daniel made it clear, that period of time is for DANIEL'S people, not the Gentile church of today.

You are right, Jesus DID lay everything out perfectly FOR THE JEWS and Hebrews who will be living through the 70th week.

I challenge you to study Paul in 1 Thes chapter 5. There He gives us timing information. Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord, just three verses after his rapture verse unless that DAY FOLLOWED the rapture? Why would Paul mention wrath unless Wrath followed hard after the rapture?

There is only ONE PLACE in Revelation that we can place Paul's rapture: that is just before the 6th seal that begins the Day of His wrath.

 

[jgr]

Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

I was "taught" seduced if you will about the rapture in the church I grew up in. It wasn't until the early 2000's that someone said it wasn't biblical. I chose at that time really study for "myself" to show myself approved as we are taught to do so. I only had to read Matthew 24 and Paul's teachings in both of his letters to the Thessalonians on the subject in the simplicity that they are written to see that Christ comes back only once at the last and 7th trump.

And when I read the rest of the word I didn't see anything that refutes that.

Why would I give up my life time beliefs if it wasn't true? I wouldn't. I choose to believe what is written.

In fact, a lot of my beliefs were not biblcial, that the 144,000 are only Jews, when in fact only 10,000 are from the tribe of Judah and so on.....

Hell being eternal when Christ himself says that the second death is the death of the soul (Matthew 10: 28)

But those are just some of the false doctrines along with the rapture I had been taught, not learned from the written word.

If Christ taught a rapture I would certainly believe it, without a doubt.

Your independent study led you to the same conclusions as those of the historical true Church for over 17 centuries.

Pretrib rapture is a figment of modernist dispensational futurism unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the historical true Church before the 19th century.

You're in great company.

Blessings in your continued discovery of the truth in Jesus. (Ephesians 4:21)

 

[iamlamad]

Paul is a second witness to Christ's teachings. Both give out strict warnings to not be deceived on this subject. So it is very important.

Christ says he immediatly comes back "after" the tribulation and as a Christian it is my duty to believe him. Paul names this event in 1st Thes chapter 5 (the subject hasn't changed from chapter 4) the Day of the Lord. This day has been talked about all througout the bible. Old and new.
And since the Thessalonians were confused themselves on the timing after his first letter he had to write a second letter and tells them not to be confused or shaken in mind (even with his first letter) and proceeds to nails down the timing. 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. So he's telling them, don't even let 1st Thessalonians confuse you.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Falling away is apostasy in the Greek
...

Christ says he immediately comes back "after" the tribulation and as a Christian it is my duty to believe him. Paul names this event in 1st Thes chapter 5 (the subject hasn't changed from chapter 4) the Day of the Lord.
You are mixing up two comings: that always brings confusion. He WILL come right after the days of tribulation -to the Battle of ARmageddon WITH His church - it is truth. But He will also come before ANY days of tribulation FOR His church. This is also truth.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Question, Julie: at the end of this verse, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not?

I will wait for your answer before proceeding on this verse.

 

[Adamina]

JulieB67 said: ↑
Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

Your independent study led you to the same conclusions as those of the historical true Church for over 17 centuries.
Pretrib rapture is a figment of modernist dispensational futurism unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the historical true Church before the 19th century.
You're in great company.
Blessings in your continued discovery of the truth in Jesus. (Ephesians 4:21)

Agree.

From what I have seen on this board in the short time I have been on is that the majority of threads appear to be on the "rapture" [just do a forum thread title search].
From what I know, it is solidly entrenched in the dispensationalist doctrine, and one I was fortunate enough not to get caught up in that "spider web".

I found this site a good read on that:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Also see: Rapture refuted

Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

See: The Origin of Rapture Doctrine in 1830 AD (Inventor: John Darby)

See: 50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

Introduction:

1. Rapture doctrine is widely believed today, but it did not exist before it "popped" into John Darby's head in 1830 AD. If you believe in the Rapture, you probably wrongly assumed it was a historic Bible doctrine, when in fact it was born in the era of the cults (1830-1880 AD).

2. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

3. Rapture promoters usually claim to have inspiration, are prophets, apostles, "the Elijah", have special illumination from the Holy Spirit and that God has revealed new doctrines not previously known by anyone, including the apostle Paul himself. They believe in

4. There are two types of false teachers who promote Rapture: "Date setters" like Camping whose DATE is not the rapture but their own self-extinction on the world religious stage... if they are honest. "Date Teasers" like Jack Van Impe are cowards who promote the end as being VERY VERY soon, but never specific, in order to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars flowing.

5. Christians reject the rapture and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a

 

[timothyu]

Since this is true, the Gentile church of today should be spending most of their study time in the Pauline Epistles: they are written to the Gentile church of today.

Yet there is only three short references to the Gospel of the Kingdom which Paul spent much of his time teaching. Why? Because the teachings of Jesus regarding the good news of the Kingdom of God were the focal point. Paul's epistles served an entirely different purpose but were convenient to those later on focused on building their own kingdom.

 

[jgr]

Since this is true, the Gentile church of today should be spending most of their study time in the Pauline Epistles: they are written to the Gentile church of today.

The myth of "the Gentile church of today":

"Data from the Pew Research Center that as of 2013, about 1.6 million adult Americans of Jewish background identify themselves as Christians, most are Protestant."

And that's just Americans.

Another modernist dispensational fantasy and fallacy.

 

[Douggg]

Quite the opposite actually as my post claims. Christ and Paul are my teachers on the subject.

I was "taught" seduced if you will about the rapture in the church I grew up in. It wasn't until the early 2000's that someone said it wasn't biblical. I chose at that time really study for "myself" to show myself approved as we are taught to do so. I only had to read Matthew 24 and Paul's teachings in both of his letters to the Thessalonians on the subject in the simplicity that they are written to see that Christ comes back only once at the last and 7th trump.

And when I read the rest of the word I didn't see anything that refutes that.

Why would I give up my life time beliefs if it wasn't true? I wouldn't. I choose to believe what is written.

In fact, a lot of my beliefs were not biblcial, that the 144,000 are only Jews, when in fact only 10,000 are from the tribe of Judah and so on.....

Hell being eternal when Christ himself says that the second death is the death of the soul (Matthew 10: 28)

But those are just some of the false doctrines along with the rapture I had been taught, not learned from the written word.

If Christ taught a rapture I would certainly believe it, without a doubt.

Julie, when I read this in your post -

"I will give you a backstory on my experience. I'm 52 and was raised in a Baptist church that taught of a secret rapture all of my life."

That is terminology commonly used by commentators who argue the posttrib view against the pre-trib view.

...Mark 13 and Luke 21. Christ lays out everything perfectly about the end times. If Christ had taught a secret rapture it would be there but it's not.

More "secret" rapture, instead of just rapture. The rapture is in Luke 21:34-36. Try "anytime" rapture instead. (see my screen-name information to the left)

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

________________________________________________________________

The rapture is also in 1Thesslaonians5:9-11 before the Day of the Lord begins (shattering the peace and safety mode of them who will be caught unaware at the time)


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

____________________________________________________________________

The only thing the Baptists missed on was their thinking the timing of the rapture has to be (instead of may be) before the 7year 70th week starts. Which they also misnamed it "pre-trib", when in fact what they mean is pre-70th week.

The rapture could happen "anytime" between now and when it actually does. But it has to be before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood - triggering the beginning of the Day of the Lord (the Day of the Lord beginning is in 1Thesslaonians5, 2Thessalonians2).

 

[JulieB67]

Again Christ has foretold us all things. The disciples asks for signs of his coming (singular) and the signs for the end of the world. He lays it out perfectly and Paul is a second witness. He doesn't say this is only for the disciples and both him and Paul taught to the elect. And to say that Christ purposely omitted a rapture only to have God unfold it to Paul is not biblical. Especially when Paul backs him up in his teaching.

The mystery that Paul talks about is that we will "all" be changed at the last trump.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

He mentions nothing about going anywhere but that we will be changed at the last trump.

As for the wedding feast. Since it takes place on the temple mount as mentioned in Isaiah, I plan to take part.

Christ says he immediately comes back "after" the tribulation and as a Christian it is my duty to believe him. Paul names this event in 1st Thes chapter 5 (the subject hasn't changed from chapter 4) the Day of the Lord.
You are mixing up two comings: that always brings confusion. He WILL come right after the days of tribulation -to the Battle of ARmageddon WITH His church - it is truth. But He will also come before ANY days of tribulation FOR His church. This is also truth.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Question, Julie: at the end of this verse, is the man of sin revealed, or is he not?

I will wait for your answer before proceeding on this verse.

If you had read my earlier post you would see my thoughts on the Anitchrist. I gave scriptures, not my own opinions.

Because Paul tells us it was a secret

Please provide scipture stating Paul tells us the rapture was a secret.

I think people get confused when they split up the tribes. Revelation says only 10,000 will be from the tribe of Judah during the tribulation. The others sealed will be from the others scattered back in the day. Judah, Benjamin and Levites (some other scribes mixing in..) remained. Yet, people lump Jews into being the entire 144,000. That again is not biblical and can generate more confusion.


We need to let Christ and Paul do the teaching. When we insert our own opinions without scripture to back it up, it's just that, our own opinions.

The rapture was secret hidden in Father God until Paul finally got born again. It was then revealed to Paul AFTER Paul, instructed by God, turned to the Gentiles

I challenge you to study Paul in 1 Thes chapter 5. There He gives us timing information. Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord, just three verses after his rapture verse unless that DAY FOLLOWED the rapture? Why would Paul mention wrath unless Wrath followed hard after the rapture?

Not sure you're meaning here. Paul is continuing his thoughts on the subject of 1st Thes 4:17


I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

He's talking about the same event. And he goes on to say this,

Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I Thessalonians 5:4 "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

Peace and safety because the most of the world will be worshipping Antichrist and then bam, God's wrath. That's why we are to study so that day does not overtake us as a thief.

Just curious, what is your interpretation of this verse?

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

 

[JulieB67]

That is terminology commonly used by commentators who argue the posttrib view against the pre-trib view.

I used the terminology because of people saying it was a secret until it was given to Paul.

I'm not here to debate the subject really although I've been pulled in a little bit. (hard not to at times lol) But I've been there, done that over the years. Most of us are not going to change our minds but wanted to tell her that I actually did change my mind after studying for years. And just wanted to share that with Jaimie. She can read and decide for herself.

 

[Douggg]

I used the terminology because of people saying it was a secret until it was given to Paul

I am not trying to defend the phrase "secret" rapture, but the concept, and event of the rapture is in the bible.

One of the things that Paul spoke about in 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 and again in 1Thesslanians5:9-11, was the inclusion of a resurrection of them who have died in Christ up to that time, to take place at the same time as the translation of the living (the rapture).

Differently, in the gospels, Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 addressed the living, to escape the great tribulation (implied), and to be looking up when the great tribulation looks to be near, for our redemption (which would apply to them living at the time.) draws near.

So what Paul was revealing the combination of the changing of the living, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ up to the time the event takes place.

 

[JulieB67]

Well said.........

Thank you.

I too did some studying on John Darby back in the day and that was such an eye opener for me.

Blessings in your continued discovery of the truth in Jesus. (Ephesians 4:21)

Thank you!

 

[Davy]

Me thinks that somewhere along the line you were seduced by some posttrib commentators/influence... and did not come up with all that rationale on your own.

More than likely the direct opposite!

 

[Davy]

I am not trying to defend the phrase "secret" rapture, but the concept, and event of the rapture is in the bible.

One of the things that Paul spoke about in 1Thesslaonians4:15-18 and again in 1Thesslanians5:9-11, was the inclusion of a resurrection of them who have died in Christ up to that time, to take place at the same time as the translation of the living (the rapture).

Differently, in the gospels, Jesus in Luke 21:34-36 addressed the living, to escape the great tribulation (implied), and to be looking up when the great tribulation looks to be near, for our redemption (which would apply to them living at the time.) draws near.

So what Paul was revealing the combination of the changing of the living, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ up to the time the event takes place.

Looking through those doctrines of men of a pre-trib rapture again I see bro.

1 Thess.4 reveals the resurrection of life per John 5:28-29, which happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming. There is no 'secret' coming prior to that day, and that day is the last day of this world.

Your interpretation of 'escape' in Luke 21 implies a secret rapture when there is no such mention. Maybe you don't understand that His command to flee Judea when they see those armies surrounding Jerusalem is a last day event? (see Zephaniah 3:8-9)

 

[iamlamad]

Agree.

From what I have seen on this board in the short time I have been on is that the majority of threads appear to be on the "rapture" [just do a forum thread title search].
From what I know, it is solidly entrenched in the dispensationalist doctrine, and one I was fortunate enough not to get caught up in that "spider web".

I found this site a good read on that:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Also see: Rapture refuted

Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

See: The Origin of Rapture Doctrine in 1830 AD (Inventor: John Darby)

See: 50 ways Pre-millennialism contradicts the Bible

Introduction:

1. Rapture doctrine is widely believed today, but it did not exist before it "popped" into John Darby's head in 1830 AD. If you believe in the Rapture, you probably wrongly assumed it was a historic Bible doctrine, when in fact it was born in the era of the cults (1830-1880 AD).

2. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

3. Rapture promoters usually claim to have inspiration, are prophets, apostles, "the Elijah", have special illumination from the Holy Spirit and that God has revealed new doctrines not previously known by anyone, including the apostle Paul himself. They believe in

4. There are two types of false teachers who promote Rapture: "Date setters" like Camping whose DATE is not the rapture but their own self-extinction on the world religious stage... if they are honest. "Date Teasers" like Jack Van Impe are cowards who promote the end as being VERY VERY soon, but never specific, in order to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars flowing.

5. Christians reject the rapture and rely upon the pages of the Bible alone as a sole source of conduct and doctrine. . Find a church that exposes the Rapture as a

I never cease to be amazed that people reject what is written so clearly. Do you just tear out 1 Thes. 4 & 5 from your bible? Or perhaps just never read those chapters.