I'm looking into joining a Methodist church. Should I and why?

[seeking.IAM]

did your dad get a list of all the apostolic succession back to john Wesley?

Not that I know of.

 

[tulipbee]

is this true?:
-------------------
In the United Methodist Church, all Elders are Ordained by the bishop of their Annual Conference. At their Ordination service, they are given a Methodist Lineage of Ordination which goes back to John Wesley.
---------------------------
John Wesley was ordained within the Anglican church, right?

 

[Albion]

is this true?:
-------------------
In the United Methodist Church, all Elders are Ordained by the bishop of their Annual Conference. At their Ordination service, they are given a Methodist Lineage of Ordination which goes back to John Wesley.
---------------------------
John Wesley was ordained within the Anglican church, right?

Yes, he was; but according to the concept of Apostolic Succession that all the churches which have and value it agree to...

...a priest like Wesley was cannot pass it on by ordaining someone else. Only a bishop can make new bishops. Apostolic Succession believes that there is a line of bishops descending to the present from the original ones--the Apostles.

In Methodist history there is a theory that Wesley was made a bishop ("consecrate" is the word for that) in secret, so that's unproven and the church itself doesn't take a stand one way or the other about it.

 

[tulipbee]

Yes, he was; but according to the concept of Apostolic Succession that all the churches which have and value it agree to...

...a priest like Wesley was cannot pass it on by ordaining someone else. Only a bishop can make new bishops. Apostolic Succession believes that there is a line of bishops descending to the present from the original ones--the Apostles.

In Methodist history there is a theory that Wesley was made a bishop ("consecrate" is the word for that) in secret, so that's unproven and the church itself doesn't take a stand one way or the other about it.

were others ordained property to cover the start of Methodism?

do you believe in the secret? I see no reason to follow the ordination rules of rcc or was it orthodox.

 

[Willie T]

I'm from the Calvinist groups but I can't be too picky about theology especially when I learned from multiplies of different theologies. I'm sort of agreeing with the early church fathers and more towards the orthodox side. I had enough of rcc excuses.

You do know Methodists are not Calvinistic at all, don't you?

 

[tulipbee]

Yes, he was; but according to the concept of Apostolic Succession that all the churches which have and value it agree to...

...a priest like Wesley was cannot pass it on by ordaining someone else. Only a bishop can make new bishops. Apostolic Succession believes that there is a line of bishops descending to the present from the original ones--the Apostles.

In Methodist history there is a theory that Wesley was made a bishop ("consecrate" is the word for that) in secret, so that's unproven and the church itself doesn't take a stand one way or the other about it.

Who decides bishop to bishop rules?
I believe the laying of hands in the ordaining process is simple enough. that should work. it is said that Wesley was a priest in the Anglican church. how does this ordaining process work? so all bishops in Anglican church is apostolic succession-Ed, right?

 

[tulipbee]

You do know Methodists are not Calvinistic at all, don't you?

sort of. I'm both so there are too many blends of Calvinism and Arminianism in the same bowl. I have my own theology the combines them both along with oriental beliefs. for now , I might see "strangely warmed" to be similar to kundulini awakening. years ago I saw a chart of Pentecostals offsprung from Methodism.
I have two nearby local choices: Methodists or Baptists. neither are like Presbyterians like me. Which church should I choose?

 

[Willie T]

sort of. I'm both so there are too many blends of Calvinism and Arminianism in the same bowl. I have my own theology the combines them both along with oriental beliefs. for now , I might see "strangely warmed" to be similar to kundulini awakening. years ago I saw a chart of Pentecostals offsprung from Methodism.
I have two nearby local choices: Methodists or Baptists. neither are like Presbyterians like me. Which church should I choose?

I just wondered since you incorporated Calvinism into your screen name.

 

[Albion]

were others ordained property to cover the start of Methodism?

John Wesley raised up other ministers on his own authority. According to his own church (Church of England) he couldn't do that. But the early Methodists were not committed to Apostolic Succession, so the movement went ahead.

do you believe in the secret?

I neither believe in it nor disbelieve it. There is a possibility that Wesley was consecrated a bishop in secret, but there is apparently no evidence.

IF a person were to care a great deal about it, thinking that Apostolic Succession is essential for the validity of the ministers and sacraments...then it would matter a lot, but the United Methodist Church does not take that approach, which is why I said before that you shouldn't give it any particular thought when deciding whether or not to join the UMC.

 

[Albion]

Who decides bishop to bishop rules?

Customarily, there has to be some acceptance by the church of the candidate, such as though a church convention, although the Pope makes the choice in the RCC. However, it takes existing bishops to lay hands on the candidate if (s)he has been approved.

it is said that Wesley was a priest in the Anglican church. how does this ordaining process work? so all bishops in Anglican church is apostolic succession-Ed, right?

All priests in the Anglican Churches are ordained by bishops in Apostolic Succession themselves.

 

[tulipbee]

From a link:

A clergyman once asked Mr. Wesley, ‘Were you consecrated bishop by Erasmus?'

Wesley replied, 'Have you read the Praemunire Act?'

'Yes.'

'Would you have me answer you truly?'

' Yes, or not at all.'

'Then, under the circumstances, I cannot answer you.'

The penalty for violating the Statute of Praemunire was loss of all civil rights and all property. That was as close as Wesley could come to saying "Yes" without running afoul of the law.

 

[tulipbee]

In 1763, the Greek bishop, who was visiting London at the time, consecrated John Wesley a bishop, and ordained several Methodist lay preachers as priests, including John Jones and Thomas Bryant. However, Wesley could not openly announce his episcopal consecration without incurring the penalty of the Præmunire Act.
found at Erasmus of Arcadia - Wikipedia

 

[tulipbee]

I just wondered since you incorporated Calvinism into your screen name.

old name but tulip could be right. I read 'bondage of the will' by Luther. he debated Erasmus on free will. I was on Luther's side. recently I saw Erasmus name and learned he also ordain Wesley. I guess calvins not in apostolic succession, right? I like the Baptist view of local elders ordaining pastors. that made more sense. 2000 year old apostolic succession records is just crazy. we can't even get 200 year old records accurate enough

 

[hedrick]

The UMC and ECUSA have finalized an agreement for full communion. If it's approved by both parties, future ordinations and consecrations would involve people from both. If you accept that the ECUSA has apostolic succession, it would spread into the UMC. I believe the same is true of the ELCA, which adopted a similar agreement with the ECUSA in 2000.

I think in the long run the mainline churches will all have such agreements. The big problem in Presbyterian / Reformed churches is that we don't have a separate office of bishop, so recognizing each other's offices is complex. One proposal has been to treat PCUSA executive presbyters as bishops, but they are quite explicitly not intended to be that kind of office at the moment. That could change, of course.

Incidentally, from a Catholic point of view, the UMC has the same problem as the Anglicans. Apostolic succession requires not just a line of bishops, but that the churches involved intended to do what the catholic tradition does in consecrating bishops. I think that would be difficult to establish in the case of the consecration of Methodist bishops.

 

[circuitrider]

Incidentally, from a Catholic point of view, the UMC has the same problem as the Anglicans. Apostolic succession requires not just a line of bishops, but that the churches involved intended to do what the catholic tradition does in consecrating bishops. I think that would be difficult to establish in the case of the consecration of Methodist bishops.

If the Episcopal Church recognizes us as being in Apostolic Succession, all well and good. But to be honest I think the doctrine can easily be misused by the Roman Catholic Church to claim they are the only valid Church.

 

[Anto9us]

oops - I had wrong Erasmus!


oh, btw, I never in all my decades heard of Wesley's 'heart strangely warmed' linked to Kundalini -- most fascinating!

In the movie ANIMAL HOUSE, the Dean had the Deltas on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION

Maybe the deal with Wesley being ordained by Erasmus of Arcadia could be known as

DOUBLE SECRET APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

 

[Proud Bible Believer]

As a former Methodist for 50 years, I'd encourage you to visit more than one congregation. You will find variance in worship styles from traditional to contemporary to "Blended." If you visit only one church you may wander into the wrong type service for you and make too hasty a determination that Methodism is not for you. Visit some others and you might find one that suits you just fine. Methodists are good people, and I largely enjoyed my stay among them.

I agree 100% visit more than one congregation..... I finally found a stable home after being a Baptist for 20 years, I visited a couple of others to finally find a HOME...
Praying for you..

 

[tulipbee]

another reason to leave presbyterian churches is they don't want to try to be apostolic. they say they are in their creeds and then say they are not.
---------------------
Denominations that reject apostolic succession
Some Nonconformist Protestants, particularly those in the Calvinist tradition, deny the doctrine of apostolic succession, believing that it is neither taught in Scripture nor necessary for Christian teaching, life, and practice. Accordingly, these Protestants strip the notion of apostolic succession from the definition of "apostolic" or "apostolicity." For them, to be apostolic is simply to be in submission to the teachings of the original twelve apostles as recorded in Scripture.[164] This doctrinal stance reflects the Protestant view of authority, embodied in the doctrine known as Sola Scriptura. Apostolic succession - Wikipedia

 

[circuitrider]

I don't understand the obsession with apostolic success. It is the sharing the gospel that passing on the faith of Jesus Christ, not an unbroken succession of ordination. All the doctrine of Apostolic Succession does is protect institution over message.

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't understand the obsession with apostolic success. It is the sharing the gospel that passing on the faith of Jesus Christ, not an unbroken succession of ordination. All the doctrine of Apostolic Succession does is protect institution over message.

I don't get it either. In fact, I never even heard about it until I joined CF.

I grew up Southern Baptist and then later became United Methodist, and in both cases, the focus was on the gospel of Jesus Christ and not on some human-created hierarchical structure which seems to have very little positive effect. If we are joining a congregation based on "Apostolic Succession" rather than whether or not it is Christ-focused and proclaims the gospel, then something is wrong.