Im confused about the "genesis" Sumerian, Epics of Gilgamesh, stuff

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Vance

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Don't forget, just because you don't think that Genesis was meant to be read as strict literal history does NOT mean you think it is unreliable.

I believe the Bible is accurate, inerrant, reliable and holy. And I think that God created using evolution over billions of years.
 
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indonesianpalmtree

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Yeah, but I didn't mean to say you're wrong... I'm just saying you could be wrong which basically means you probably don't know for sure... am I right? I don't know for sure either and I'm not saying I'm right either...

But if there are two possibilities, the one that seems most likely is defininately not the truth until proven. We know through experience that sometimes the most ridiculously improbable things happen in life. Since we can't prove anything in this field, I think we should move on.

Buuuut, if you want to continue, here's another bone we can chew on: What about the rest of Genesis, written in historical form? Where is the defininate separation (other than chapters)? Noah's flood is also unprobable as the creation account.

I think my Adam-made-mature argumant carries some weight, doesn't it? Come on, just think about it. It's not logical, I conflicts with the evidence, but maybe, just maybe, is could have happened that way. Why on earth would God want to send Jesus to die for us sinful little people? It's just as unprobable!

God bless! :)

-Pete
 
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SBG

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Vance said:
Biliskner, you create a bit of a quandry. Occasionally, in the past, atheists have come onto this board and the other one, and posed as YEC's in order to make YEC's look bad. The problem has been that it is often difficult to distinguish between someone trying to make YEC'ism look bad and some YEC's simply asserting their beliefs. In your case, I have been trying to decide which you really are, since one of the clues of an imposter is that they have very few posts under their belt (having created the account for the purpose). I am leaning toward assuming you are a true YEC, rather than an imposter, however.

Are you questioning whether he is a Christian or not??? Gee, Vance how hypocritically of you.

It is so good of you to add that last line in so you may not get a warning.

Seriously, if you think he is an atheist, call him out. You can at least be honest can't you?
 
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Biliskner

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Vance said:
Yes, evolution is absolutely the most convincing explanation of the data we have. That is why the vast majority of even Christian scientists accept it.

time will tell. as much as i want to see revival in creationism ministry, i'm not setting my hopes too high; still waiting on God's timing.

Vance said:
Yes, Genesis reads entirely as a figurative account (not strictly just poetry, since it uses typology, symbolism, etc, as well).

did you even look at the link i've given you in like 3 different threads?

Vance said:
I really have a hard time seeing how anyone reads that text as strict historical narrative.

that much IS clear.

Vance said:
I can assure you that if you took a nearly identical text with the same literary style from another ANE culture and asked 100 whether the writer of that text, or the original readers of that text, saw it as strict literal historical narrative, most would say no.

not true.
show me your evidence, 'cos i've shown you mine.
 
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Biliskner

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SBG said:
Are you questioning whether he is a Christian or not??? Gee, Vance how hypocritically of you.

It is so good of you to add that last line in so you may not get a warning.

Seriously, if you think he is an atheist, call him out. You can at least be honest can't you?

i take comfort in:

Col. 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Col. 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
:amen:
 
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indonesianpalmtree

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Vance,

the thing about taking lit from other cultures and asking folks to decide whether it's true or not is not really relevant. The Hebrew texts are monotheistic whereas, say Enuma Elish, is mythic polytheism and actually, COMPLETELY ubsurd. In the Gilgamesh version of Noah's flood, the Noah figure built a 200x200x200 cube! Note the peculiarity that both these cultures write about a great flood... could this mean that maybe there WAS a flood - even if people distorted the original tale?

But you have a point about it being symbolically interpretive,

HOWEVER,

this only shows how intricate the Bible could be if the Genesis account is both true and serves as a lesson as well!

God bless!
 
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Biliskner

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they (lol, "they") also forget that the Bible is transcultural, since ALL of mankind are of Adam & Eve (the 'mother of all the living') - the Bible applies no matter what culture we're in. re in the sci & tech culture, the information "superhighway" age - the Bible speaks to this culture too - but stuff like "women in ministry", "Genesis as literal history" etc. all become taboo subjects, only applicable to "that culture" etc.

...oh well - all the more to looooooooong for the Coming of our Lord and Savior.
 
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SBG

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Biliskner said:
i take comfort in:

Col. 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
Col. 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
:amen:


:amen:
 
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Vance

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The problem is that we have had imposters here before, and they tend to have the same traits as Biliskner has had in this forum since he got here. Their purpose is to make YEC'ists look foolish and ignorant, and dogmatically arrogant. The problem is that it is often difficult to tell the imposters from the real thing, so I thought I would feel him out to see if he could provide some better bonafides about his sincerity.

Biliskner, if you are indeed sincere, and are not just here to make YEC's look bad, I apologize.
 
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SBG

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[font=verdana,geneva,lucida,'lucida grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A[/font]h, that is so kind of you Vance to think that someone who professing being a Christian, is actually a Christian.

I do hope that when the same question is asked of you, you don't fly out of your seat and be upset.

BTW, those are some harsh judgments you deal out to a fellow Christian, nice touch! Don't be complaining when it has or will happen to you.
 
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Biliskner

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Vance said:
Yes, the problem is your tone is exactly the sarcastic, shallow, hostile and arrogant tone used by the imitators, along with links to sites that don't hold much weight. Still, given the overall view of your posts, I am inclined to think you are legit.

and yours isn't?? what a crack up!!! :doh:

you and your friend grmorton. what a crack up!!! (anyone seen grmorton's thread on karsts? and that poor guy 'dad' who's handling about 7 assaults on 7 different fronts? grmorton enlists the help of atheists to bag creationism - wow, and i thought i'd seen it all when i read Brother Yun's story in the Heavenly Man.)

if this were the "Alien/UFO/Creation/AiG Book-thread, you would NOT DARE TO CALL ME "exactly the sarcastic, shallow, hostile and arrogant tone used by the imitators" you hypocrite.

you make me sick. :sick:
 
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Vance

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Well, yes, I would say the same thing regardless of where your post was located. Look back at the tone of your posts since you got here. You came in with a definite attitude, hostile and attacking. Sarcastic and, yes, very much like "dad". (BTW, if you are using him as your role model, then that explains a lot).

Now, in that other thread, look and see how AiG speaks about Wyatt.

My point was that you act the same way imitators have done when they have come to these forums to make YEC's look bad, and that is the simple truth. I am not sure what else to say about that. I was explaining why I had some doubts about you, and that was the reason. If you found it offensive, I apologize. But that does not change the fact of the tenor of your posts.

As for having my Christianity attacked, that is a fairly regular occurance. Most of the regulars here have backed off of those attacks, but we TE's still get it from new YEC's, even more on the other forum.
 
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Vance

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Here is what I have written before on the Epic of Gilgamesh, since it deals with the OP:

In the post below, you will find the ancient Sumerian flood narrative [omitted here, unless someone wants it]. We don't know when it was first told, but it was first written down some time around 2000 B.C.. This not only predates the actual writing of the Genesis account, it predates Moses by and even Abraham by hundreds of years. Now, Abraham is actually very important to this development. Abraham was from Sumer. He would have grown up with this story, as would have Sarah and Lot, etc. This was part of THE major epic narrative of their past, and it is difficult to believe that this story would not have passed down among his line.

Now, many hundreds of years later, we have the Genesis account written down, with many, many striking similarities in details. Now, even hardcore literalists like ICR acknowledge that the Genesis account was almost assuredly based on an oral version being told by the Hebrews before it was written, and that it was not just dropped on the Genesis writer as a new revelation and I don't think anyone disputes this.

Further, even the hardcore literalists agree that the first civilizations grew up in Mesopotamia, in Sumer, and that Abraham and his descendants are derived from that culture. Even if one takes the genealogies as true, it would mean that everyone on the list up to Noah, and then from Shem to Abraham was from Mesopotamia. This is true because the literalists also assert that Eden was in Mesopotamia. So, I don't think anyone would dispute that Noah was from Mesopotamia as well.

This means that the person who was saved from the flood was from Mesopotamia and the earliest account of the flood, even by literalists standards, would have to have arisen in Mesopotamia. Now the Epic of Gilgamesh includes that story, and it became their major cultural story about their past. And, again, that is where Abraham eventually was born and raised.

So, lets consider the possibilities:

1. The Sumerian account was passed down among the descendents of Abraham and, over hundreds of years, it evolved into the account we have in Genesis.

2. The descendents of Abraham never heard the Sumerian story and, thus, their version could not have derived from or been influenced by the Sumerian flood narrative.

I just don't see number 2 as a viable option. If someone wants to make a case for number 2, feel free.

Assuming 1 for the moment, then, we have the Hebrews starting with the Sumerian version and then changing many of the details at some point to what we have in Genesis today. The question then remains whether all the details they changed was a process of converting it back into the historically accurate story. This is not the usual process for story development. It usually get further from historicity the further it gets from the source. By the time the Sumerian version was written down, the story had already grown from whatever event caused it's writing to a highly mythologized account.

I believe that God was definitely involved in this conversion process to some extent, but I do not think it most likely that He guided the conversion back to literal history. I have no reason to think that this would be necessary.

But what would this mean for Biblical veracity? I am with C.S. Lewis on this one:

I have therefore no difficulty in accepting, say, the view of those scholars who tell us that the account of Creation in Genesis is derived from earlier Semitic stories which were Pagan and mythical. We must of course be quite clear what "derived from" means. Stories do not reproduce their species like mice. They are told by men. Each re-teller either repeats exactly what his predecessor had told him or else changes it. He may change it unknowingly or deliberately. If he changes it deliberately, his invention, his sense of form, his ethics, his ideas of what is fit, or edifying, or merely interesting, all come in. If unknowingly, then his unconscious (which is so largely responsible for our forgettings) has been at work. Thus at every step in what is called--a little misleadingly--the "evolution" of a story, a man, all he is and all his attitudes, are involved. An no good work is done anywhere without aid from the Father of Lights. When a series of such retellings turns a creation story which at first had almost no religious or metaphysical significance into a story which achieves the idea of true Creation and of a transcendent Creator (as Genesis does), then nothing will make me believe that some of the re-tellers, or some one of them, has not been guided by God.

Thus something originally merely natural--the kind of myth that is found amongst most nations--will have been raised by God above itself, qualified by Him and compelled by Him to serve purposes which of itself would not have served.


God used this story, with which His people were very familiar, adopting it for His purposes, to convey great and important truths about His relationship with Mankind.
 
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Biliskner

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Vance said:
Well, yes, I would say the same thing regardless of where your post was located. Look back at the tone of your posts since you got here. You came in with a definite attitude, hostile and attacking. Sarcastic and, yes, very much like "dad". (BTW, if you are using him as your role model, then that explains a lot).

Now, in that other thread, look and see how AiG speaks about Wyatt.

My point was that you act the same way imitators have done when they have come to these forums to make YEC's look bad, and that is the simple truth. I am not sure what else to say about that. I was explaining why I had some doubts about you, and that was the reason. If you found it offensive, I apologize. But that does not change the fact of the tenor of your posts.

As for having my Christianity attacked, that is a fairly regular occurance. Most of the regulars here have backed off of those attacks, but we TE's still get it from new YEC's, even more on the other forum.

*cough* i see only OEC's posting topics that bring out "creation vs. evolution" *cough* you.

...and start the bagging of creationism as a 'science' that is 'built on lies'.

FYI, dad is not my role model. but whatever. :sleep:
 
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Biliskner

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Vance said:
Yes, the problem is your tone is exactly the sarcastic, shallow, hostile and arrogant tone used by the imitators, along with links to sites that don't hold much weight. Still, given the overall view of your posts, I am inclined to think you are legit.

links such as:
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/10mut10.htm
+
http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm
+
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/508.asp
+
etc.

don't hold much weight.

and you wonder why all you get is:
Vance said:
exactly the sarcastic, shallow, hostile and arrogant tone used by the imitators

LOL :doh:
 
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Vance

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No, they really don't hold much weight, and they have all been reviewed, and responded to in the past. Here is the best thing you can do: Go to this page and begin reviewing the past discussions so that you can see what has already been discussed and where we are in the generally state of discussion:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1161676-the-ce-thread-archive.html
 
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DemunHunter said:
its true.....but i think they attack subjects that are confusing to some christians to make it even more confusing....


like what is the sons of God? Why are there so many similarites? [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]no longer will you call me, 'My Ba'al.' [/font][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]For I will remove the names of the Ba'als from her mouth, and they shall be mentioned by name no more." <

what does that mean??

ohh well i still trust the word in faith.!!! just get worrried for a short time and have to fight it off....
[/font]
Baal is the same word as YHWH in Hebrew, if I remember correctly. They both mean "Lord" or "Master". So what? Who says the idea of Yahweh came from Baal because two words from two different languages have the same meaning? That is erroneous.

I might say that Jimmy worships "the lord" (let's say his lord is money), and it is his god; but that is vastly different from saying that George worships "the Lord", and He is his God.
 
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