I'm Being Honest From the Start

[Undead]

When you get to know our God.. you will learn some fascinating truths about Him and His way of doing things.
1. "He has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise." Sometimes the smartest people among us have the hardest time believing the simplicity of the Gospel message--that God Himself would allow us to do to Him what has always been in our hearts to do (ever since Eve's decision to "be like Him") He allowed us to kill Him... and in doing so, has made a way for us to be freed from sin. It's totally ingenious if you consider it. He knows flesh is only flesh, and God is a Spirit, so He allows us to kill His flesh, but His Spirit descended into Hades and preached to the Old Testament Israelites who were patiently waiting for Messiah--and thus fulfilled the Scripture, "No man may come to the Father except through the Son." The Bible declares that when He arose on the third day, He led captives in His wake! What does this mean? Hades was once a holding place for souls, both good and bad, and there was a huge gulf that divided Hades into the paradise portion and the hellish portion. So when Jesus arose, this is when Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ascended to heaven to be with the Father. The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. They do not understand it--they are confounded by the simplicity.

2. Our God has once again chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise--this is why David, a short young man (teenager perhaps) defeated Goliath who stood about 9 feet tall and had a spear that was as large as a weaver's beam and could probably not even be lifted by someone like you or I. And yet, this God has also chosen to defeat Leviathan (the Devil) with an infant! LOL! Imagine that! The serpent who atheists claim has so much power over us puny humans--defeated by a baby in swaddling cloths.

3. Everyone dies. Our God is greater than a genius. He is the Master! He says "I will let you kill me, and then I will kill you" then after that, those who have my spirit within them will rise and be with me and we will both be defanged and can now be together.
How else could God create friends without us taking over heaven? If He creates equals, we could kill Him (spiritually), if he creates something less than equal, we accuse him of creating slaves. So He has worked out this masterful plan that will ultimately elicit praise and songs of devotion to Him! Loyalty, faithfulness, love!

"Revelation 19:5-7
Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, "Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns. "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready." And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."

========
Nehemiah 9:6

"You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.

Revelation 4:6-11
and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME."
Revelation 7:11

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Revelation 7:11-12
saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

Revelation 11:16

And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, "Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

1 Peter 2:9

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Isaiah 51:11

So the ransomed of the LORD will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting joy will be on their heads They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away.

Luke 2:13-14
And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."

Revelation 5:8-14
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 15:2-3
And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God. And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!

Revelation 14:3

And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Philippians 2:10-11
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Daniel 7:14

"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.


The point being-- we will WANT to worship Him, not out of compulsion (or being forced to) but because we love Him so much for ransoming His own life for us-- the torture He went through--He could have died an easy death, but they spat on Him and plucked out His beautiful beard while they mocked him---all this because He walked around healing people and saying strange things like "Love your enemies."

This is our God-- your and mine. Even if you are not born again, make no mistake, He is your God "All souls are mine saith the Lord" who else do you think created you? ..lol
Fall in love with the real Creator.. learn who He is in a personal way.
Your unsaved friends may think this is all foolishness-- a whale swallowing a man, etc.. let them lack belief-- invite them here if they want to talk about what atheism is and all it has to offer.
But nothing compares to what kind of Life Jesus wants to give you. He paid a King's ransom for your soul! Cvanwey!

 

[Undead]

Your Icon is funny because I had a friend that stole a Bible right after I got radically saved (I was witnessing to him and asked him if he had a Bible) then I saw him a few weeks later and was so proud, he was like "Hey, I went to the clubhouse at my apartment complex, and they had a Bible in there, so I took it!" then he sort of thought about it and was like "I guess that was wrong huh?"
I said "You know what--the fact that you stole a Bible, is almost proof that you needed it, isn't it?" and he was like "Yeah, I guess.. I never thought of it that way" and then I said "Let me give you a Bible so you can return that one.." lol
That cracked me up so bad--I will never forget it.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I was born and raised Christian. Believed wholeheartedly for decades.... Believed all asserted claims from the many I admire. Just recently, I decided to finally read the Bible for myself. Found many topics and claims which do not appear to jive with reality.

Some see fell upon the rocky places and among the thorns...

 

[Lukaris]

I think it was generally understood among the early Christians that the soul of a still born would go to heaven. See chapter 15 (XV) of the 2nd c. ( ca. 125 AD) of St. Aristides. I am not good with cut & paste on an iPhone. The chapters are only a couple paragraphs each so it is quick to scroll to. See: Apology of Aristides

 

[drich0150]

I was born and raised Christian. Believed wholeheartedly for decades.... Believed all asserted claims from the many I admire. Just recently, I decided to finally read the Bible for myself. Found many topics and claims which do not appear to jive with reality. I've asked many questions, to many people. They accuse me of being a troll, dishonest, avoid my questions, some seem to present intellectual dishonesty, some provide ad hominem attacks, some commit many logical fallacies in their defense, some assert their case and have no interest in any of my observations.... This is for starters.... I'm not saying all devout believers do this, however. I'm just saying, this appears to be a good half of my responses.

I'm asking some very direct questions, which I feel place the Bible to the test. I feel I must explore these concerns of mine, in a completely intellectually honest way. My delivery may seem somewhat harsh. However, I possess no ill will. It is undeniable that personal beliefs, in practically anything, can stir much emotion.

Anywho, I would love to present many questions to Christians. However, I want to be honest and state, that I am now very skeptical to Christianity, after reading many parts which do not appear to jive with reason and logic.

I will present a very small tickler question here, and go from there??? It seems somewhat morbid. However, I'm placing the logic and claims of the Bible to the test, to assure whether I can find truth within it, rather that simply using my own circular logic.

So here it goes....

Does a still born go to heaven or hell?

TY in advance!!!!

I work with many people who have question for a very long time. I don't claim to know everything. but do us logic the bible and reason to give approximations.

For example in order to answer your question we must look at the reason for life, not why we say we are here but the reason God put us here.

In short our reason for being is to make a singular choice. not a free will thing as that is not a biblical concept. as the bible tells us over and over we are slaves to sin. and have been appointed to life to decide whether or not we wis to atone for this sin or live in it, then we are to be trned over for judgement.

If the purpose for life is to decide where we want to spend eternity/Heaven or Hell then a still born has not made that choice, and I could contend is sent back around for another life/choice. we do have examples in the bible of people being sent back around for another turn. The two prophets/witnesses in the book of Revelation are often said to be Moses and Elisha. Jesus Himself said in mat 11:14 that john the baptist was Elijah

Many would point out that we are each given 1 life to live and then the judgement. I would point out a still born never lived.

That said no matter what happens God is not bound by loophole theologies like man is. Jesus Himself will make the choice. When have we any examples of Jesus making an unfair or unrighteous choice? whatever choice Jesus makes we can now to be the right one.

 

[drich0150]

Moohahahah I mean very interesting thoughts hope I can help...

Four possible justifications for morality exist... Which all either further prove subjectivity (by using A), B), and D), (or) circular reasoning, in option C)...


A) Opinion (the theist will assert we inherently 'know' right from wrong, because it was given to us by god.) By definition, this is the most subjective demonstration and offers absolutely no grounds for objectivity. Opinions differ culturally, geographically, spiritually, and sometimes merely by gender.


B) Consensus (many opinions, which agree, is still subjective. Slavery was considered acceptable by the majority a couple hundred years ago, but is more-so frowned upon today). Any counter argument for civil law (human invented law) versus moral law (god's law), still contradicts the claim presented by theists; and begs the question until the specific god is demonstrated to exist.


C) God (using claimed objective morality to prove god, and vise versa, is circular and does nothing to demonstrate the existence of a higher authority). All the theist is required to do is prove the claimed moral prescription was actually presented by a god, and the discussion can then start to begin coherently.


D) Consequentialism or cooperation. This position also does not claim objectivity, as morals are not objective by definition. Furthermore, it is the only position, of the four, to provide demonstrable evidence and justification for how morals arise. If a theist uses position D) to justify morality, the believer is contradicting theistic claimed morals, as they must then admit to taking a world view approach to moral values. The theist will then try their best not to use this approach. Thus, they will only use the first three (A), B), and C); which either all further prove subjectivity (in A) and B) or circular reasoning in option C).


Don't just assert your position of objective morals, prove it. Provide one moral absolute, and prove it is objective. Also try doing so effectively, logically, and coherently, without resorting to option D) as your premise for evidence and proof.


By default, all text is written by humans (New Testament, Qur'an, etc...). The burden of proof is applied to the theist, whom states this text was inspired by a higher power. Theists, please remember this if using position C) to support the moral argument, and is proven viciously circular.


Christians specifically might attempt to cop out, by asking “what standard of evidence is acceptable for the skeptic.” This response becomes quite simple and fairly self-explanatory... The theist would demand or require the very same standard of evidence the skeptic demands for any other claim of truth, in any subject, which includes all the opposing religious claims the Christian does not currently accept from other claimers of other beliefs. Furthermore, the Christian would also not accept the opposing position, especially if the opposing side used the following tactics Christians tend to use for their own justifications (i.e.) claimed faith, circular logic, using the fear of the unknown, blank assertions, belief preservation, conformation bias, appeals to religious authority, appeals to emotion, special pleading, a need for cognitive closure, repetition, and supporting many other logical fallacies. So why then are these tactics the most common ones used to justify the Christian's own religious position? Without evidence, this is all that is left.

In conclusion, Which God's claimed 'objective morals' are you asserting? And, can you prove it?

What if Morality is not a work from God?

What if 'morality' is the evil or level of sin in which man allows himself to partake in, in a given society and can still see himself as being 'good?'

The problem when you base your foundational theology on what a given religion says it often time will not even meet the base standards of the bible.

In truth God's morality is not 'moral.' What the bible describes as God's 'morality' can be called God's righteousness. The difference? many of the things man deem moral (women having the right to choose to kill an unborn baby being one example off the top of my head) would not be a righteous act before God. like wise the keeping of slaves is now no longer considered to be a 'moral' act among men. but as you point out 'morality' is an ever changing joke of a standard because it is based on the heart/desires of man. It pretends to be of god because unrighteous men in and out of the church no long can recognise the righteousness of God when it is staring them in the face. they confuse feeling and wanting right with God's righteousness especially when it conflicts with man's morality. That is because we no long know God well enough to know where his words stop and our 'good deeds' begin.

But here's the thing... "good" or good deeds, is not the gold standard in God's economy. Love is. Love is the reason we are supposed to follow God's law to the best of our ability. Heaven Hell have nothing to do with being good or being 'moral.' that is an ancient hebrew construct reworked by the dark ages church for the consumption of CHristian for the sake of control. IF you look at biblical christianity, love is the driving force for everything. love is freedom. freedom from man's morality freedom from works as the gold standard freedom from trying to reach a given bar. In fact we are love and are so free we are allowed to bind ourselves or live under the oppression of rules and moral clauses if we don't know any better.

So why do 'good things?' Because of our two greatest commands.. To love our lord God with all of our being and to love each other as we love ourselves. with in these two commands the whole book of rules have been met. Love for God Love for our brother is the reason for Heaven and Hell to want to be with God to serve God by serving each other. This is the face of biblical Christianity, not the moral mess spiritualist have made for us.

 

[cvanwey]

What if Morality is not a work from God?

Yes, what if 'morality' is nothing more than a 'label', actions, and thoughts grounded by homeostasis (Maslow's hierarchy), consequentialism, cooperation, game theory, empathy, evolution (tribalism), reciprocal altruism, humans being extremely altricial, and elders teaching the younger ones how to co-exist in society, which all keeps the anarchy at bay.

What then?

Seems as though to instead conclude that not only are the 'gut' feelings of 'good' and 'evil' God provided, one still must demonstrate WHICH God is providing such pronouncements? One then has no choice to use the Bible, to prove the Bible - just like any other ethnocentric religious claim. Furthermore, 'good' and 'evil' are subjective, even when asking a theist.

 

[drich0150]

Yes, what if 'morality' is nothing more than a 'label', actions, and thoughts grounded by homeostasis (Maslow's hierarchy), consequentialism, cooperation, game theory, empathy, evolution (tribalism), reciprocal altruism, humans being extremely altricial, and elders teaching the younger ones how to co-exist in society, which all keeps the anarchy at bay.

What then?

Seems as though to instead conclude that not only are the 'gut' feelings of 'good' and 'evil' God provided, one still must demonstrate WHICH God is providing such pronouncements? One then has no choice to use the Bible, to prove the Bible - just like any other ethnocentric religious claim. Furthermore, 'good' and 'evil' are subjective, even when asking a theist.

Kinda got ahead of yourself sport I hate to burst your bubble but my whole point is... The God of the bible has nothing to with 'morality.' The whole point of Christianity is to free one's self from right and wrong as a measure of worthiness before God.

Your whole diatribe loses it's bite when 'morality' becomes a tribal construct. This take God out of the 'right and wrong game.'

So who is God?

While the bible introduces and provides a road map the proof is not in the map but the final destination. Meaning the bible in this life time promises to place you before the living God/God the Holy Spirit. The 'proof' not the bible the proof in arriving where the bible/map takes you. At which point the bible becomes no different than any other document that guarantees to put you in front of a particular place person or thing.

Those who need youtube and other atheist to think for them would at this point try and double down again with your logical fallacy, but I would like to point out that when you seek 'proof' of your GPS do you follow it first to see if it is accurate? or do you always ensure accuracy with sources that the GPS would not have access to? (meaning you would use sources other than the following: maps, the internet, modern sat nav network?) What does that leave you? sexton compass dead reckoning maybe? No we say the proof in the instruction is being delivered where the source material promises. In the case of the bible we are told If we seek God on His terms the result would be contact with the Holy Spirit. I and every other christian who has purposely taken this quest up and FOLLOWED THROUGH with what the bible says do, can contest this promise is true.

A religion does not last long if it promises to put everyday people in front of it's main deity for very long if it is not true. That is why no other religion on the planet has EVER done this/made this promise. Inorder for Christianity to have stood the test of time making this particular promise scores upon scores of it's believers cashed in on this promise. Christianity/Biblical Christianity eliminates ALL need for prophets priests or any other intercessors before themselves and the living God. The only reason we need the bible is to ensure to whom we speak, because God's voice is not the only one who calls from the wilderness.

 

[cvanwey]

Kinda got ahead of yourself sport I hate to burst your bubble but my whole point is... The God of the bible has nothing to with 'morality.' The whole point of Christianity is to free one's self from right and wrong as a measure of worthiness before God.

Your whole diatribe loses it's bite when 'morality' becomes a tribal construct. This take God out of the 'right and wrong game.'

So who is God?

While the bible introduces and provides a road map the proof is not in the map but the final destination. Meaning the bible in this life time promises to place you before the living God/God the Holy Spirit. The 'proof' not the bible the proof in arriving where the bible/map takes you. At which point the bible becomes no different than any other document that guarantees to put you in front of a particular place person or thing.

Those who need youtube and other atheist to think for them would at this point try and double down again with your logical fallacy, but I would like to point out that when you seek 'proof' of your GPS do you follow it first to see if it is accurate? or do you always ensure accuracy with sources that the GPS would not have access to? (meaning you would use sources other than the following: maps, the internet, modern sat nav network?) What does that leave you? sexton compass dead reckoning maybe? No we say the proof in the instruction is being delivered where the source material promises. In the case of the bible we are told If we seek God on His terms the result would be contact with the Holy Spirit. I and every other christian who has purposely taken this quest up and FOLLOWED THROUGH with what the bible says do, can contest this promise is true.

A religion does not last long if it promises to put everyday people in front of it's main deity for very long if it is not true. That is why no other religion on the planet has EVER done this/made this promise. Inorder for Christianity to have stood the test of time making this particular promise scores upon scores of it's believers cashed in on this promise. Christianity/Biblical Christianity eliminates ALL need for prophets priests or any other intercessors before themselves and the living God. The only reason we need the bible is to ensure to whom we speak, because God's voice is not the only one who calls from the wilderness.

I honestly did not see my response as a forceful or bitter attack in any respect. But if you took it that way, my apologize.

So please let me clarify a bit further. My position, is that there really exists no 'moral absolutes' and that all morals imply a subjective human applied standard, whether it be the ones I mentioned above (not just tribalism, but many), or even if one is a hard core theist. My point is that morals are still not absolute for many reasons. First and foremost, there exists a difference between 'objective' and 'absolute' morals. Though it 'may' be possible to establish some type of 'objective' moral standards, it seems impossible to 'prove' 'absolute' moral values (either from a theist, atheist, agnostic, etc.).

Please also remember that if one wants to establish a moral framework, from a theistic perspective specifically, one must first demonstrate existence of their very specific claimed deity, at least for starters. And even if this specific entity is demonstrated demonstrably, still has work to do there-after.

Making fallacious statements such as 'A religion does not last long if it promises to put everyday people in front of it's main deity for very long if it is not true.' or 'That is why no other religion on the planet has EVER done this/made this promise.' or 'In order for Christianity to have stood the test of time making this particular promise scores upon scores of it's believers cashed in on this promise.' demonstrates nothing of value to your assertions.

Religions are older than Christianity. However, this presents no merit to being correct/incorrect. Humans beliefs of a submissive deity, placing humans above the deity, can and will most likely be believed by some for the existence of humans (true or false). Such a belief does not verify it's truth. How could it? To humans, other and/or older religions make promises as well. How might one know if they are true or not, since they have not come back to report their conclusion postmortem. Many believers of many religions claim to have 'cashed in' or will 'cash in' on their believed promises... And?

 

[Caliban]

g

Yes a still born would go to heaven.

And welcome to CF!

Good luck friend, you and I are in the same battleship.