I'm beginning to doubt the depth of your salvation

[tadoflamb]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

 

[“Paisios”]

I constantly doubt the depth of my salvation, until I realize that my salvation is entirely dependent on Him. Then I no longer doubt because He is so great.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

Well said, Tad. Great post. Speaking on a personal level, I grew tired of the guilt trip and doubt I use to feel when evangelical Christians would question my salvation and unfairly judge me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

How many people that JESUS spoke to did this apply to ?
Later, likewise, how many people that His disciples preached the GOOD NEWS to, (all through the New Testament, perhaps)...
They proclaimed the GOOD NEWS to individuals and to crowds, in and out of synagogues, by pools of water and by rivers, in towns and in the country,
who were not saved. Were they supposed to say something else instead of what they preached as Jesus directed them ?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Well I have to admit I am anxious about my salvation. Not as much as some who expressed the same recently. As Catholics, its not a given is it? We still have to show we love thy neighbour through good works, don't we?
Am I confusing concepts here already?

 

[High Fidelity]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

There's a right way and wrong way about proclaiming what that Pastor did. If this instance was ever to be justified(and even if it was the end of the road, it's still pretty unnecessary), it would have to have been after the Pastor personally went to the member to rebuke them, failing that returned with a witness to rebuke again, etc. Even if that was the case, this still seems unnecessary.

It is not judgemental to state that, though, so long as the proclamation is grounded in Scripture. We can, in fact, know that the majority of professing Christians are not saved; Scripture tells us this(the many and the few), so it is not an unknown concept to consider but at the same time as Christians we are expected to rebuke our brothers and sisters so that we may allow God to work through us as "iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"(Proverbs 27:17).

Rebuke? Depending on the circumstances that I don't think any of us know, by all means if it's grounded in Scripture. But this... it just seems unnecessary.

 

[Arsenios]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

I agree - It is a VERY wierd thing to say...
And telling, I should add...
Who takes his confession, I might ask...
But it won't help, I fear...

And it IS a stumbling block...

Sticking your finger in the OTHER guy's eye is just wrong...

Arsenios

 

[HereIStand]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

It would depend on the circumstances. If a pastor met privately with someone, and the individual attempted to justify a carnal life, then there might be grounds for lowering the boom, as it were. If though, as is more commonly the case, an individual in spiritual doubt went to a pastor, then the pastor should try to offer reassurance, not grounds for more doubt.

 

[Halbhh]

I heard an evangelical pastor say that on the radio once in regards to one of his congregants. I thought it was a weird thing for a pastor to say. As Catholics, we don't get into the business of judging the status of peoples souls. I wonder how this pastor was given that grace.

A couple of things. This kind of attitude is one of those stumbling blocks I was talking about on another thread. The evangelical message of "I'm saved, you're not" never worked for me.

The other thing is that Christians, Catholics included, seem to be overly sensitive about what others think about the status of their salvation. Personally, I couldn't care less. As a Catholic I know that I am saved, (Eph.2:4-5) I am being saved, (1 Cor. 1:18) and if I persevere, like the apostle Paul, I hope to be saved (2 Tim. 2:11-12). There's really not much to despair about there.

Nice summary of being saved (present tense).

 

[HoleyHermit]

You didn't read the Secret Gospel of Demokritos where it turns out that your final destination is decided by popular vote? Neither did I.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

This guy (a Catholic theologian)talks about how we (cats and prots)have more in common than it may appear.

 

[Halbhh]

This guy (a Catholic theologian)talks about how we (cats and prots)have more in common than it may appear.

Even before watching, which I think I will, I discovered we are about 97% or something the same in my view (but I am currently in a Lutheran church), or if you count just the crucial things, like you'd read in the Nicene Creed, Apostles' Creed, it's really more like 99.99% or 100% among the believers (those not merely attending only for tradition alone, but who actually believe in their hearts).

 

[tadoflamb]

How many people that JESUS spoke to did this apply to ?
Later, likewise, how many people that His disciples preached the GOOD NEWS to, (all through the New Testament, perhaps)...
They proclaimed the GOOD NEWS to individuals and to crowds, in and out of synagogues, by pools of water and by rivers, in towns and in the country,
who were not saved. Were they supposed to say something else instead of what they preached as Jesus directed them ?

This pastor isn't Jesus and he isn't even an authentic teacher of Jesus. How can I tell? He's preaching a false gospel of salvation. If I'm going to read the bible for myself and apply it to my daily life, this pastor represents the Pharisee with his love of his self-righteousness, his modern day phylactery and his spirit of condemnation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well I have to admit I am anxious about my salvation. Not as much as some who expressed the same recently. As Catholics, its not a given is it? We still have to show we love thy neighbour through good works, don't we?
Am I confusing concepts here already?

Yes,
but we cannot go into details nor depth on this site.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This pastor isn't Jesus and he isn't even an authentic teacher of Jesus. How can I tell? He's preaching a false gospel of salvation. If I'm going to read the bible for myself and apply it to my daily life, this pastor represents the Pharisee with his love of his self-righteousness, his modern day phylactery and his spirit of condemnation.

All the followers of Jesus in the New Testament and later,
whenever they were preaching to unsaved crowds, would always basically let the crowd they were preaching to know that
they -the crowd- were not saved : the whole world /society was not saved- so that was a given -
and tell them how to be saved the same as all the followers of Jesus were saved; including their own testimony how they themselves were once not saved and now are saved-
that is the GOOD NEWS - the MESSAGE of the GOSPEL OF JESUS,
isn't it ?
Very straightforward, honest, truthful, and in line with all of God's Word, as Jesus taught and trained all His disciples.

 

[tadoflamb]

This guy (a Catholic theologian)talks about how we (cats and prots)have more in common than it may appear.

I watched the video. I wasn't that impressed. As PK says at the beginning of the video, there are over 9000 protestant denominations and over 22,000 non-denominational protestant denominations. He forgot to mention those ecclesial assemblies which are too small to be noticed as well as individual protestants who's beliefs are either too unique or their personalities to strong to allow them to belong to a concrete faith community. I don't see how you compare any of this Catholicism and it's 2000 year teaching magisterum.

PK makes the appeal that we should try to talk to each other, to listen to each other and to try to understand one another. Let me get this right. I'm supposed to come to an understanding of over 9000 protestant denominations, over 22,000 non-denominational denominations, as well as all their residual adherents?

To me, Christianity isn't supposed to be individualized like that and I don't find any protestants personal relationship with Jesus to be so compelling that I'm willing to listen to over the witness of over 30,000 versions of protestantism. I guess when you come from the protestant tradition, it's not that daunting, but I'm not and I have neither the time, the energy nor the interest to take on such an endeavor.

Me? I'm not that special. I'm just one of 1.2 billion. If anyone wants to know what I believe, they can pick up a catechism, or better yet, go to mass.

I also found it laughable that PK says Catholics and protestants have learned to love each other. Has he ever been to CF? I've had my fill of protestant love.


Of course, CF is regrettably the only place where I interface with protestants. Maybe it's better in IRL however, here in Catholicville the Lord has found it fit to keep them largely out of sight. When I was in StVdeP I thought that would give me an opportunity to work with them in serving our poor neighbors, but unfortunately, the dozen or so protestant denominations in my parish weren't doing anything like that. I'm confident that if the Lord wanted some protestants in my life, He'd provide them to me.

But, let's cut to the chase. If there is some Truth taught within the tradition of protestantism which they didn't receive from the Catholic Church, I'd like to hear about it. I don't believe there is.

 

[Halbhh]

PK makes the appeal that we should try to talk to each other, to listen to each other and to try to understand one another. Let me get this right. I'm supposed to come to an understanding of over 9000 protestant denominations, over 22,000 non-denominational denominations, as well as all their residual adherents?

:=)

It's good enough to tell any and all anywhere that say they are 'Christian' that you are too, because you believe this way --

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[Halbhh]

Of course, CF is regrettably the only place where I interface with protestants.

If you lived next door, you'd likely get to know me, and find we are having almost every belief the same. (Even though I don't think of myself as 'Lutheran', but simply as Christian, only, it was interesting to recently learn that Lutherans (the church we're attending in the last few years) and Catholics have completely agreed now on Justification, which was the big one, in my view. And that's one of 32 agree doctrines so far, including some striking agreements in those 32. The simple fact is we are about 98% the same, and identical in every salvific question so far as I know. I have a close Catholic friend who is very highly educated in history and theology and we talk for hours at a time.)

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I also found it laughable that PK says Catholics and protestants have learned to love each other. Has he ever been to CF? I've had my fill of protestant love.

But we Catholics aren't one united bunch here either.
The main divide I see on CF is Conservative versus Liberal, whether it be Catholic or Prot.. Politics is bigger than religion in seems.

 

[tansy]

Well I have to admit I am anxious about my salvation. Not as much as some who expressed the same recently. As Catholics, its not a given is it? We still have to show we love thy neighbour through good works, don't we?
Am I confusing concepts here already?

As long as one doesn't think 'good works' in themselves saves one - good works should come out of the fact that one is saved...from what God puts into you (not sure I've put that very well I'm afraid)