Illumination and Conviction without Regeneration

[twin1954]

I think what Owen is saying is that although there must be a necessary work of the spirit illuminating and convicting it does not always follow that regeneration will take place. If you look at the scriptural examples given I think that is demonstrated. There are other examples in scripture like Balaam or King Saul of men who had a measure of spiritual knowledge and even anointing but fell short of regeneration.

I haven't gotten to Owen's scriptural examples but I am not yet convinced that having an providential experience of intellectual knowledge is a work of the Spirit. Balaam and Saul both were given some knowledge but it wasn't what I think the Scriptures intend when they speak of the work of the Spirit. I simply can't yet agree with Owen.

Actually I think Jesus makes the point here. You can be a teacher of Israel as Nicodemus was with all the external qualifications of office and yet remain spiritually dead

I am convinced that the Lord is showing us that having outward evidence is not being able to see. I would equate it as groping about in the dark. You can feel the walls and know that they are there but you can't see them until the light is turned on. The Spirit turns on the light and when He does you have not only a knowledge but understanding.

 

[twin1954]

I would say the following is pretty definitive

I am not sure that I would agree. I believe the passage is showing the impossibility of such a thing happening. Can one experience the saving grace of God by the Spirit and fall away?

 

[oworm]

I am not sure that I would agree. I believe the passage is showing the impossibility of such a thing happening. Can one experience the saving grace of God by the Spirit and fall away?

The passage isn't talking about those who have experienced the saving grace of God and fallen away. It's talking about those who have tasted and shared in some of the benefits of the Christian life.

 

[twin1954]

The passage isn't talking about those who have experienced the saving grace of God and fallen away. It's talking about those who have tasted and shared in some of the benefits of the Christian life.

I humbly disagree. Verse 9 puts it in context for me.

Still even so tasting and sharing some of the benifits of christian life is not necessarily being illuminated by the Spirit. Satan is a master deciever who can easily counterfit the experience of grace in the heart.

 

[oworm]

I humbly disagree. Verse 9 puts it in context for me.

Still even so tasting and sharing some of the benifits of christian life is not necessarily eing illuminated by the Spirit. Satan is a master deciever who can easily counterfit the experience of grace in the heart.

Verse 9 says (note my emphasis in bold)
" Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation"

" In your case" is over against "those who have once been enlightened" v4

There are two groups of people here. Those that have been enlightened but who have fallen away and those that have the things that pertain to salvation.

Read the part of the passage again and take not of the emphasis in bold

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised

 

[twin1954]

Verse 9 says (note my emphasis in bold)
" Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation"

" In your case" is over against "those who have once been enlightened" v4

I am not really interested in debating the interpretation of a passage of Scripture. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion.

 

[bricklayer]

Regeneration precedes faith ontologically; chronologically, they are simultaneous.

It is important to not confuse the ontological sequence of ideas with a chronological sequence.

 

[twin1954]

Verse 9 says (note my emphasis in bold)
" Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation"

" In your case" is over against "those who have once been enlightened" v4

There are two groups of people here. Those that have been enlightened but who have fallen away and those that have the things that pertain to salvation.

Read the part of the passage again and take not of the emphasis in bold

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case

The writer to the Hebrews is givng an illustration of the impossibility.

 

[oworm]

I am not really interested in debating the interpretation of a passage of Scripture. I was just trying to contribute to the discussion.

Well you did disagree I was responding to your disagreement.

 

[twin1954]

Well you did disagree I was responding to your disagreement.

I know. I love to debate but I am convinced that if you can debate what you believe then what you believe is debatable.

 

[oworm]

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case

The writer to the Hebrews is givng an illustration of the impossibility.

Impossibility of what?

 

[oworm]

I know. I love to debate but I am convinced that if you can debate what you believe then what you believe is debatable.

That is true. But truth is not debatable

 

[twin1954]

That is true. But truth is not debatable

That is why I no longer debate. Truth simply must be proclaimed and believed not debated.

 

[oworm]

That is why I no longer debate. Truth simply must be proclaimed and believed not debated.

Ok, so what is your response to post 31?

 

[twin1954]

Impossibility of what?

The impossibility of a believer falling away. He is saying that it is impossible for one to have tasted the gifts and been made a partaker of the Spirit to fall away. His reasons for such an impossibility is that to do so would crucify Christ afresh and put Him to an open shame.

 

[oworm]

The impossibility of a believer falling away. He is saying that it is impossible for one to have tasted the gifts and been made a partaker of the Spirit to fall away. His reasons for such an impossibility is that to do so would crucify Christ afresh and put Him to an open shame.

Is that what he is saying? Look at the text again

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Brother, it doesn't say anything about the impossibility of a believer falling away. It says that it is impossible in the case of those who have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit to be brought again to repentance if they have fallen away.

The those in the passage are not born again believers. They are tasters and sharers. it is only in verse 9 that he refers to believers when he says "But in your case"

 

[twin1954]

Is that what he is saying? Look at the text again



Brother, it doesn't say anything about the impossibility of a believer falling away. It says that it is impossible in the case of those who have been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the Holy Spirit to be brought again to repentance if they have fallen away.

The those in the passage are not born again believers. They are tasters and sharers. it is only in verse 9 that he refers to believers when he says "But in your case"

The word "for" in the beginning of verse 4 is a connecting word. It connects what he just said to what he is about to say. It is also a "because" word. You can substitute the word because in the place of the word for and it begins to make sense that he is laying an illustration of the impossibility for a believer to fall away and be restored. His point isn't that one can taste of the heavenly gifts and be a partaker of the Spirit and not be saved. He goes on to show the faithfulness of the promise of God to those who are true follwers of God. His point being that those who fall away are not believers because believers have experienced the things of the Spirit.

 

[twin1954]

Notice once again that he uses the word "for" as a connecting word in verse 10. The same rule applies. the "for" connects the promise of God to what he said about speaking in such a way as an illustration.

 

[oworm]

The following article by Sinclair Ferguson is hosted on RC Sproul's website. It will take no more than ten minutes to read
Apostasy and How it Happens by Sinclair Ferguson | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

 

[twin1954]

The following article by Sinclair Ferguson is hosted on RC Sproul's website. It will take no more than ten minutes to read
Apostasy and How it Happens by Sinclair Ferguson | Reformed Theology Articles at Ligonier.org

A fine application of the passage but I think he missed the point of the passage.