Illegally Downloading

I download regularly. Like a lot of people, I only download one or two songs because I don't like the rest and I really don't want to waste money on a whole CD that is not worth it.
I am really looking forward to when someone gets it right and allows people to easily and legally download songs from the Internet and pay for them. This way, you can buy a whole album or just one song, pay for it and not have to worry about any CDs lying about.

At the moment I am using the music program called iTunes, but they do not have the service avalible in Australia yet, so unfortunatlly I am unable to use it. Once it is up and running, I will spend the couple of hundred dollars to get my songs made legal. I can't wait.

Then I can pay for the music I enjoy, rather than stealing it from the artists.

I do it. a fair amount. I dont go downloading whole albums. i usually download things to see how they sound then go out and buy the album its on.

Its great business. A lot of professional Music artist encourage downloading of music. legal or not. Because people will find the odd thing they like, then go out and buy more (like me)

I used to download all the time. Not so much anymore. For a while I have just been collecting pepsi bottle caps for free songs on itunes.

well in my opinion programs like WINMX and kazzar are like borrowing a friends CD and copying it onto the computer. So i dont have a big problem with it

I think it is respectful to honor the wishes of the copyright holder, whoever that may be.

I think it comes down to submitting to your leaders. In the US, copyright laws make downloading without someone somewhere having paid a license fee illegal. It is not the same everywhere in the world.

While I think the record companies are playing a fast one that does not make it right to steal from them.

There is a grey area though, and that is in the realm of stream rippers for internet radio. Current US courts seem to indicate that it is legal to do so, not unlike taping broadcast tv or radio for personal use. The content providers pay for a license to provide such music. As it is legal, it is what I do to check out music. However, the quality is often times not all that good... Well actually, mp3's often times to be seriously lacking, but the convenience outweights the loss of fidelity in most cases.

As far as file sharing such as napster, kazaa, and livewire. They are pretty explicitly outside of the law for most content in the US. It is wrong before God, and in addition, I'd really hate to have an FBI guy show up at my place, nor would I want to pay a huge fine.

Ron

i dont download much these days. i dont even remember when the last time i download a track off the net. probably a couple years ago. now cds are becoming more frequent in my room. it feels nice to kno u hav the original and that you're supporting the artist and his/her music that you enjoy.

now for the issue of illegally downloading. i think the question that most of us are wondering (myself including) is illegal downloading a sin? you can easily argue that there's nothing in the bible about illegal downloads, or the internet-- electricity even. even though our technology and culture is continually changing- God's Word is something that remains constant- and forever stable. back to my point..
I cannot say whether or not illegal downloading is a sin- but i will let the bible speak for itself.. "Though shalt not steal"
If God convicts you that what you're doing is wrong, that's between you and God to sort out.

Breaking copyright laws is illegal in Canada /\

I use soulseek to download songs to see if I like them and if I do I buy the CD, If I don't, I delete the songs.

First off... isn't this the MUSICIAN'S forum?!?!?!?

How many of you who are downloading these songs have actually went through the money and time to write the songs, record them, have them mastered, and stamp them?

I'd venture to say not many. It costs a TON of money comparitively to buying a CD nowadays - even at "ripoff" prices such as your local department store. Try $75/hr for a CHEAP recording studio price. This isn't your major studios. And then the amount of hours? It can go ridiculously long! It's as much as you can afford and the quality you seek. It's not unusual to spend weeks in the recording studios.

Here's my beef:

1.)When has stealing EVER been an acceptable practice for arguing the price of a product? (I hope we all can see that infringing copyright IS stealing)

I think Porsche's are too expensive, so I commit Grand Theft Auto once a day to combat these unfair prices and monster companies.

Who would ever consider that RIGHT!?

2.) The comments like this -

soulfool said:

I use soulseek to download songs to see if I like them and if I do I buy the CD, If I don't, I delete the songs.

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1 - there is already a LEGAL way of doing this. This can be likened to trying on a shirt in a fitting room. Another good example is the sample food trays that some grocers or fast food chains utilize. Most bands and record companies either have streaming audio or mp3s that you can download to sample their music. Places like purevolume.com and myspace.com also do this. Basically, they are saying "Here is some of our music for you to listen to. You can do with it whatever you want (under legal restrictions) and if you like it enough, we hope you'll buy the rest of our music. If not, it's yours to trash or never listen to again."

2 - HOWEVER, what these people are doing is stealing the shirt, taking it home, trying it on, wearing it a few times around friends, and seeing what feedback they get. Or in the food instance, they are taking a prepared sandwich that's ready to be handed to someone and just taking a bite out of it for "sampling" reasons. THIS ISN'T RIGHT!

3.)GOD SAYS NO! For Christians, this should be the end all right here. Check out Romans 13:1-7. Here's some quotes "Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed" and "Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath [getting sued for illegal downloading], but because of conscience." philN, I'll have to disagree with you here. I think when God says obey the authorities that he has appointed, that's what it means. Of course, when it comes into direct conflict with God's law, we are exempt, but this is NOT coming in conflict. I am one who does his best to drive the speed limit, to argue your case, and I believe that's another things Christians do because its "socially acceptable." Likewise, when the authorities say no illegal downloading, I say fine, because it is like God saying it.

4.) EVEN IF we throw out the legality issues, we STILL have conflict with the Bible. I bet everyone has some friends that are handymen at certain things that we are not. Do we abuse these friends by constantly asking them to perform their specialities for us for free? No! That's not what Christ taught. Whether you agree or not, music IS a business in one of its facets and to make good music, musicians have to have money just like ANY OTHER JOB! How much good music could we make if we all had to work full-time at Wal-Mart while touring and recording and having relationships? THIS is what we're forcing the bands that can't make it "mainstream" into doing!

Christ said "love one another even as I have loved you" How sacrificial is taking another man's work for free?

a musician,
Josh

Umm I could fight you on this...First by the fact that what copied music is, in fact copied...your example about about taking a car doesnt really compare to this...If you could copy that car and keep it w/o taking anything from anyone, does that really hurt anyone, the car company really wont have money stolen from them, they are missing out on some money they could have earned, but they never owned your copy...What if someone reproduced it themselves very good, and people started downloading that for free (because they give it out for free) wouldnt that hurt the record company just as much, because the reproduction can be just as good, it might not be them, but people (at least some) would choose the reproduction...so is reproducing stuff a big sin also? because the big compay doesnt get the money that was never theres?

o and im not some big advocate of downloading, i am just debating for the heck of it =)

chickenfriedfish said:

they are missing out on some money they could have earned, but they never owned your copy...

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I disagree. In place of your ownership of an album or song, a transaction SHOULD have, by law, occurred somehow so that you are now in legal ownership of the content. However, by downloading it, you have bypassed that step of transaction and went straight to the ownership. We like to call that stealing. The companies are missing money that they SHOULD have had because there SHOULD be no way for you to obtain it otherwise. Just because technology provides a loophole for that does not make it legal.

I don't see what you are saying with the "reproducing" subject, please clarify if you would

reproducing would be like another band play it, just as well, just as good, maybe a lil different of a voice, maybe even a different version, cause people like different versions to...but either way people may like the reproduced version better am i right...

Hm i could also talk about somthing like production lines, i dont know everything about it but lets see, the ford guy invents it right, other people can copy it, yet he made it, are people complaining, plus he would be losing money when other people start using production lines because they get the edge he has in the car market...kinda the same thing isnt it? no one physicaly steals anything, they just copy it...you can apply that to anything somone invents or makes or w/e...

Now you might say a downloaded song (we will use a song as example) is a 'physical copy' but its really just some number the computer makes out to be music, so if i knew what those binary numbers were i could program it myself couldnt i, and i would have done the HARD WORK in creating that masterpeice.

The only reason people bring this stuff up is because of record companies and big corps, its not because of bands needing money, ya they like having money but the record company takes that away (diff sub), they can make the money lost of downloaded stuff at the concerts, because there fan base grows, more people hear them, people pass there music around and they gain fans, and then those fans buy there next record (or old ones they dont have)...so in fact wouldnt the BAND gain money?

But i will say once again i am not some crazy supporter of downloading, i am just debating

chickenfriedfish said:

reproducing would be like another band play it, just as well, just as good, maybe a lil different of a voice, maybe even a different version, cause people like different versions to...but either way people may like the reproduced version better am i right...

Hm i could also talk about somthing like production lines, i dont know everything about it but lets see, the ford guy invents it right, other people can copy it, yet he made it, are people complaining, plus he would be losing money when other people start using production lines because they get the edge he has in the car market...kinda the same thing isnt it? no one physicaly steals anything, they just copy it...you can apply that to anything somone invents or makes or w/e...

Now you might say a downloaded song (we will use a song as example) is a 'physical copy' but its really just some number the computer makes out to be music, so if i knew what those binary numbers were i could program it myself couldnt i, and i would have done the HARD WORK in creating that masterpeice.

The only reason people bring this stuff up is because of record companies and big corps, its not because of bands needing money, ya they like having money but the record company takes that away (diff sub), they can make the money lost of downloaded stuff at the concerts, because there fan base grows, more people hear them, people pass there music around and they gain fans, and then those fans buy there next record (or old ones they dont have)...so in fact wouldnt the BAND gain money?

But i will say once again i am not some crazy supporter of downloading, i am just debating

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I take it by, "Reproducing" you are saying doing a cover song, trying to think of an example, like the what the people on American Idol do or the way say Tool does a Led Zeppelin song?

If so, the original band is supposed to make money off of those songs too. There was a big scandal in hip-hop (rap) awhile back because rappers were using music from old songs but not paying the original band any money.

As for downloading, there are some sites that have hundreds of thousands cds to download for as little as $1.00 a piece, that are located outside of North America. I've found myself there a few times but I honestly go buy the album if I like it, I like the liner notes and pictures too so downloading doesn't really help me but those sites I am talking about are protected by law so there has to be some legality to it, the way they are doing it.

I wasnt really talking about the legality, i was talking about the right factor, or even if its a sin...and i know about the cheap sites, and those sites are pretty good because they pay the band and not the record label.

And this is a really touchy subject about right or wrong (not legality) Because it doesnt deal with physical things its about rights...so does anyone have anything to say about the Biblical right or wrong of this, and if you do make sure you think of this as in about rights, not as in taking physical property, and as in Biblical not govermental...

hm about the whole software downloading...This is where open source is the good stuff, its all free, its all good and alot of the time even better than the expensive stuff, so um everyone get rid of microcrap and get linux and if you do that dont try downloading any microcrap products like office, use openoffice haha...ok i will stop blabing about open source...

*added* hm i just read some other things on this forum about canada and them allowing downloading...so would it be wrong, and a sin if i downloaded in canada? aye mates?

chickenfriedfish said:

I wasnt really talking about the legality, i was talking about the right factor, or even if its a sin...and i know about the cheap sites, and those sites are pretty good because they pay the band and not the record label.

And this is a really touchy subject about right or wrong (not legality) Because it doesnt deal with physical things its about rights...so does anyone have anything to say about the Biblical right or wrong of this, and if you do make sure you think of this as in about rights, not as in taking physical property, and as in Biblical not govermental...

hm about the whole software downloading...This is where open source is the good stuff, its all free, its all good and alot of the time even better than the expensive stuff, so um everyone get rid of microcrap and get linux and if you do that dont try downloading any microcrap products like office, use openoffice haha...ok i will stop blabing about open source...

*added* hm i just read some other things on this forum about canada and them allowing downloading...so would it be wrong, and a sin if i downloaded in canada? aye mates?

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Sorry, didn't mean the legality part just towards you, what I was asking was do those sites count since it is legal, because if so I don't know many illegal sites, as for your question about Biblically. hmm that is one to think on. It has a lot of other factors involved. I'm thinking that downloading all of your music, never buying original copies, even from the cheap sites that are said to be legal, is wrong. That is just my opinion. I prefer the new original copies but have one big hang-up, when labels re-release something I have already bought, but now it is remastered with bonus songs, those I download.

I still say that whoever own the work has the right to decide how others can use it, or what they can do with it. It would be wrong and disrespectful to go against their wishes, whether that be the artist, or the publisher/record company/whatever (because if they own it, that's because the artist gave it to them)

I agree with truthinfiction...

about the other...I can see that it is disrespectfull to record companies, but do you think its wrong, a sin, gonna send you to hell ? hm come to think of it, there are lots of other disrespectfull things, like somone cutting you off on the road, i know its not really the same because you dont miss out on money when you get cut off, but its still disrespectfull.

Do we talk about this whole downloading subject because its illegal in most countries? or would everyone still think its wrong if it was never illegal, because you wouldnt know its wrong would you?

hm just somthin to think about i guess

I guess, it just depends on how much you think the definition of theft applies to intellectual property.