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Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 25, 2002.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Kain
    If you don't believe what apostle Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3, what can I say. BTW, re Jonah's prophecy of 40 days, is that 40 days of God or 40 days of man.

    Ed
     
  2. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
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    "Thus, it has only been 2 days of God since Jesus died onb the cross."

    LOL, I've never heard something so funny in my life! wow..Ed, do you really believe this even after looking at the hebrew used for evening and morning. just to let ya know, I challenge you to find where those words are NOT used for a literal evening and moring, ie a 24 hour period. Let me know when you do.
     
  3. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    LouisBooth,

    You are asking if I really believe 2 Peter 3:8. The day I stopped believing what the Bible teaches will be the day that I stop being a Christian.

    Laugh if you will but whether a Biblical "day" is 12 or 24 hours, the TRUTH remains that ONE day of God is 1000 years of man. Thus, whether it has only been 2 24-hour "days" or 4 12-hour "days" of God since Jesus died on the cross, the important thing is, God is NOT slack concerning His promise, but is patient with us, NOT willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

    Ed
     
  4. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd
    You won't find these EXACT words in the Bible OldShepherd but you will READ a lot of prophecies bu Jesus and the apostles concerning the APOSTASY of the church. For one, you can go to 1 Tim. 4:1-3 and THINK which church could the fulfillment of this prophecy be. 2 Thes. 2:3 also prophesied the "falling away" from the true faith. 

    This is true only for those who are "IN Christ." Those who are "IN Christ (dead AND alive) will MEET Jesus in the air and will be with Jesus for ever (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

    The FACT is, AFTER all the TRUE members of the TRUE church of Christ DIED (approximately about 325 AD), NOBODY was ever "IN Christ" until 1914 when the TRUE church of Christ RE-EMERGED in the Philippines.

    What apostes Peter and Paul TAUGHT concerning the apostasy (2 Peter 2:1-3; 2 Thes. 2:3-8; 1 Tim. 4:1-3; Acts 20:29-30) they LEARNED from Jesus. Jesus himself PROPHESIED about this (Matt. 11-12; Matt. 7:15). 

    This ws TRUE for the TRUE members of the first-century TRUE church of Christ. This is still TRUE for members of the TRUE church iof Christ in these last days, the IGLESIA NI CRISTO. 

    The first-century church of Christ was NEVER comfortless while her members were ALIVE. The TRUE church of Christ in this last days, the IGLESIA NI CRISTO, is NOT comfortless as Jesus promised.

    The END of the world has NOT come. Jesus has NOT come yet. Judgment day has NOT come. Those who are DEAD "in Christ" will have VICTORY over DEATH (1 Cor. 15:54).

    Those who are "IN Christ" and meet Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17) will not be overpowered by the second death (Rev. 20:6) which is the "lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14-15).

    Read my post again and you will SEE how the Catholic Church and all her Protestant children CAME to be.

    Ed
     
  5. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    That is exactly right, "You won't find these EXACT words in the Bible" Not only that you won't find any reference or prophesy that the church Jesus built on the rock ceased to exist and millions perished to eternal [email protected] because God and Jesus abandoned the entire world for almost 2000 years.

    While you are frantically searching for verses to twist to support your blasphemous doctrine you ignore virtually everything that Jesus said, especially this verse.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


    "God so loved the world." Jesus did not say only the first century Christians. Jesus did not say that He only came to save the first century Christians or the deluded followers of Manolo but He came to save the world.

    So when you teach that the entire church fell into apostasy for 2000 years you call Jesus a liar.

    1 Tim 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

    2 Thes 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    Here are the very scriptures you referred to. They do not support your blasphemous teachings. "some shall depart from the faith" does not mean the entire church apostatized for almost 2000 years. And "falling away which reveals the man of sin" also does not mean the entire church apostatized. This is especially true when you read what Jesus Himself said

    Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have "commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Jesus said absolutely nothing about the entire church apostatizing and millions of people, for almost 2000 years, perishing without God, after the first century church Christians died. Jesus said "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Jesus did not say "only until the end of the first centurychurch" but "until the end of the world". Jesus did not say "until the first century church apostatizes" but "always."

    You add to the scripture, and twist what is said and you would rather believe a lie concocted from these twisted scriptures than believe what Jesus clearly said, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen..

    A blasphemous poisonous twisting of scriptures straight from the pits of
    hell. There is not one single verse of scripture in the entire Bible which states or implies that the entire church would apostatize in the first, or any other, century that the church would cease to exist and that God and Jesus would totally abandon the world, for 2000 years, allowing millions to die without knowing the Gospel! And there is absolutely is no prophesy in the entire Bible which foretells the emergence of a church in the Philippines.!


    You are correct Paul and Peter learned from Jesus and Jesus never taught that His entire church would apostatize and He would abandon the world for 2000 years.

    Matt7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    "False prophets" does not mean the entire church. And there is absolutely nothing in Matt 11-12 which states or implies any kind of falling away or apostasy.

    2 pet 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    "Many" is not the entire church.

    Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing
    shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing
    the flock.


    "Wolves entering in" is not the entire church.

    Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    Twisting and adding to the word of God. Jesus says nothing about His
    presence ending with the first century church. Not one single verse of
    scripture supports this.


    John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    Twisting and adding to the word of God. Jesus says nothing about His
    presence ending with the first century church or any church started by a false prophet in the Philippines, only for Filipinos. The Iglesias ni Manalo is a false heretical cult teaching blasphemy and has absolutely nothing in common with the early church, 50 AD to 325 AD. If these verses only apply to the first century church then we have to disregard everything that Jesus said because everything He said He said to His disciples and it only applies to them.


    Matt 16:18 . . .upon this rock I will build my church; and the
    gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    More twisting and adding to the word of God. Jesus says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" His church. Your false teachings call Jesus a liar, and blasphemously teaches that Satan and hell overcame the church for almost 2000 years.
    More false twisting of scripture. The gates of hell is not death! And it is not the second death. Hell is thrown into the second death. Read your Bible!

    Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; anddeath and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    When the Jews spoke of the gates of hell, this is what they meant. Jesus and His disciples were Jews. Jesus was saying that Satan and all his thousands of destroying angels would not prevail or destroy His church, that He would always be with His church until the end of the world and that He would never leave or forsake His church.

    Utter blasphemous garbage. Jesus was speaking to His Jewish followers and the "other sheep" are the gentiles. There is not one word of prophesy foretelling a church in the Philippines.

    Matthew 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    Matt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

    Luke 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


    No mention of the false prophet Manolo or his false church!

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    The blasphemous Iglesias ni Manalo teaches that God and Jesus, did nothing for almost 2000 years, while His entire church apostatized, fell away, and millions perished into eternal [email protected] The Word of God teaches that God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

    Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

    Jesus said, "I will never leave you or forsake you." There is no prophesy in the whole of scripture which foretells that the church that Jesus built on the rock would apostatize or fall away, in the first, or any other, century. So what part of "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world"" and"I will never leave you or forsake you" do you not understand?

    I have read your post you have not proved anything about the Catholic Church or Protestants. You have misquoted, twisted, added to, and ignored scriptures in a vain attempt to prove your blasphemous poison doctrine of Manolo.

    According to you God and Jesus did nothing while His church fell into apostasy and millions perished without hearing the gospel but one man who lied about his theological education and was convicted of immoral acts, after starting his church, could do what God and Jesus was not able to do, he supposedly single handedly reformed the church that had been apostate for 2000 years.


    You claim that the "true" church survived until 325 AD. If that is true then there should be a record of that church. If Jesus and the apostles Peter and Paul prophesied a falling away of the entire church then the "true' church, before 325 AD should have a record of that. Click (Here) to link to the Early Church Fathers, including all the church leaders before 325 AD.

    Show us any early church father that taught what your false church teaches.
     
  7. Future Man

    Future Man Priest of God and the Lamb

    245
    +0
    Calvinist
    What's interesting is that the "great falling away" advocated by the CDs JWs and such, can easily be attributed much more accurately to the Protestant movement in regards to the Catholic church. Think about it. :)

    (I'm not Catholic btw)

    God bless you all--FM
     
  8. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "The day I stopped believing what the Bible teaches will be the day that I stop being a Christian."

    Yup, I agree ed, you believe them, you just don't understand them ;)
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Ed,

    You accused me of twisting Philip 2:6. Here is a study by a professor/scholar who taught N.T. Greek, to PhD candidates, for 47 years.


    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form (morfh) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


    If you want to discuss this passage further don’t waste our time with a lot of foolish questions, “Why did Paul write this verse?” or “Why did John, Peter or whoever, write that verse?”, unless you can prove from authentic ancient Greek documents the verses you are quoting are true and the verses which contradict you are false. I can ask the same type of asinine questions.

    Why would Paul write that Jesus was only a man in Rom 5:15, when he already wrote in Philip 2:6 and 1 Tim 3:16, that Jesus was God? Or why would Paul write in Rom 5:15 that Jesus was a man when he already wrote in Galatians 1:1 that Jesus was not a man, “(not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father” Your only answer is you think your verse is more important than my verse or my verse is “mistranslated.” Your empty accusations that verses are mistranslated are the same as every other cult. The JW’s, Later Daze Ain’ts, David Koresh, Jim Jones, WWCG, The Way, etc., etc., etc., all passing out their brand of Koolaid, all saying exactly the same thing, “We are the only ‘true’ church, our interpretation is right and everyone else is wrong.”

    As you can see, from the exegesis below, Paul is not speaking figuratively! The Greek language is very precise, Paul, in this epistle and others, and Peter, John and all the others, wrote their revelations, from God, very exactly, every comma, every period, every verb, and every noun is exactly where God inspired it to be. For example, if God did not intend for the scriptures to record, Thomas addressing Jesus as Lord and God, it would not be in the Bible. This is The Word of God and it will take more than cultists saying “Its mistranslated.”, without any proof whatsoever, to show that it is wrong.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    Now, false cults, like the “Iglesias ni Manalo” use a few verses, and many different English translations, to try to prove their blasphemy and ignore all the other verses, that do not support their poison. But if one verse, even one word, in the Bible is mistranslated or does not mean what the verse or word clearly says, then the entire Bible is untrustworthy.

    If what Paul, very clearly, wrote in Philippians in 2:6-11, does not mean exactly what it says, according to the Greek language used and grammar rules, then we cannot accept anything else Paul writes as truth?



    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (morfh) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    (Note, the same word, morfh, in vs. 6 and vs. 7. Any argument about the “real’ meaning of morfh is irrelevant. Before, Jesus humbled Himself, He was in the “morfh of” and “equal to God”! After He humbled Himself, Jesus was in the morfh of man. If Jesus was not completely and totally God, then He was not completely and totally man. And since Jesus was completely and totally man, and even the false “Iglesias ni Manolo” agrees, then the same language requires that Jesus was also completely and totally God. OS)


    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. {fashion: or habit}

    Paul calls Jesus God, at least twice, here in Philp 2:6-11 and 1 Tim 3:16. He is not, the only one who, does, Peter and Paul both call Jesus by the Tetragrammaton, the covenant name of God, (YHWH/יהוה), Rom 10:9, and Act 2:21.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him (Isaiah 28:6, יהוה) shall not be ashamed.
    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord (Joel 2:32, יהוה) shall be saved.

    Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (Joel 2:32, יהוה) shall be saved.
    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (יהוה) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (יהוה) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (יהוה) shall call.
     
  10. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    And John calls Jesus, the true God, in 1 John 5;20 and also records Thomas calling Jesus, God in John 20:28. Thomas had just touched Jesus’ hand and side, Jesus was standing less than 24 inches from Thomas. But Jesus did not correct Thomas. He did not say, “I am not God.”. Instead Jesus said “blessed are those who have not seen but believed.” The only thing in this verse they could have believed was that Jesus is Lord and God!

    John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29Jesus saith unto him,
    Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


    Jesus is God according to the “true first and second century church”, as recorded in the writings of these Early Church Fathers (ECF).!

    To verify writings of the ECF, click (here).

    The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Ephesians (30-107 AD)

    (Note; Ignatius was a disciple of John, the Beloved, author of the Gospel, three epistles, and Revelation, the “True” first century church! OS)

    ”elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace. Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fulness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning[1] of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united[2] and elected through the true passion by the will of God the Father, and of our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour : Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled joy.[3]

    We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,[8] but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh."[9] Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.”

    The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Trallians (30-107 AD)

    ”And God the Word was truly born of the Virgin, having clothed Himself with a body of like passions with our own. He who forms all men in the womb, was Himself really in the womb, and [God] made for Himself a body of the seed of the Virgin, but without any intercourse of man.”

    The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Romans, (30-107 AD)

    ”Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that willeth all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God,”

    Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho the Jew” (110-165 AD)

    ”Moreover, in the book of Exodus we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was Jesus, and was declared mysteriously through Moses.”

    Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book I (AD 120-202)

    ”For "the beginning" is in the Father, and of the Father, while "the Word" is in the beginning, and of the beginning. Very properly, then, did he say, "In the beginning was the Word," for He was in the Son; ‘and the Word was with God,’ for He was the beginning; ‘and the Word was God,’ of course, for that which is begotten of God is God.”

    Irenaeus Against Heresies, Bk V, (AD 120-202)

    ”3. Therefore, by remitting sins, He did indeed heal man, while He also manifested Himself who He was. For if no one can forgive sins but God alone, while the Lord remitted them and healed men, it is plain that He was Himself the Word of God made the Son of man, receiving from the Father the power of remission of sins; since He was man, and since He was God, in order that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us, and forgive us our debts, in which we were made debtors to God our Creator.”
     
  11. Soul_Searcher

    Soul_Searcher Contributor

    +249
    Other Religion
    Ok, so I do see the humor and irony in this debate as believers of one way argue with a believer of another, both throwing verses back and forth to "prove" points of faith.

    But anyway, I'll look at Ed's opening statement of belief. Among others: We believe that Jesus is a MAN - not God.

    Yet Jesus did say, "I and the Father are One." hmmm...

    We believe that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine.

    And what does it matter? God is God, Jesus showed the way to God.

    We believe that faith without works is dead. We believe that man is justified by works and not by faith only.

    As do I. No great revelation there. What kind of works do you do Ed?

    We believe that he who endures until the end will be saved.

    Saved from?

    We believe that baptism into the Iglesia Ni Cristo is necessary for salvation.

    Ok, now you're getting into cult status.

    We believe that only a messenger sent from God can preach the true gospel of salvation.

    I agree, and that messenger's name is Jesus of Nazareth.

    We believe that only the Iglesia Ni Cristo has a messenger sent from God.

    The Mormons, JWs and others would disagree with you, and of course I do as stated above.

    We believe that in order to maintain unity in the body of Christ, members must be submissive to the Administration of the church.

    My 'submission' is to God alone; no man makes the rules.

    We believe that the body of Christ must be of the same mind and judgment.

    Our way or the highway (or low-way I guess you'd say.)

    We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days.

    There is no TRUE church, only belief and actions according to the teachings of Jesus.

    We believe that it is the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ purchased with his own blood.

    That is your belief and you're welcome to it--doesn't make it right.

    We believe that Christ gave his life for the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

    Again, only your belief. Jesus died AND ROSE to show us life is eternal.

    We believe that Christ is the savior of the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

    Again, cult status, nothing more.

    We believe that there is no salvation outside the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

    Salvation lies in the teachings of Jesus, not your organization. Do what Jesus instructed, follow the commandments he spoke of, put God first. What more is there?
     
  12. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    I'm not a member of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, nor do I ever wish to be.

    Am I going to Hell, ed?
     
  13. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
     I'm sorry to say it but UNLESS you REPENT and be CONVERTED (Acts 3:19) and get BAPTIZED (Acts 2:38) and be ADDED to the church (Acts 2:47) which is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO in these last days, YES, you are on the way to the lake of fire because your name is NOT written in the Book of Life in heaven (Rev. 20:15).

    Ed
     
  14. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Are you sure that I'm going to Hell, ed?

    The thief on the cross wasn't baptised at all, much less into the Iglesia Ni Cristo, yet Christ told him, "today, you will be with me in Paradise".
     
  15. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd


    John did NOT call Jesus the true God when he wrote 1 John 5:20. YOU did. Tell me OldShepherd. Do you honestly understand English? The Son of God CAME to GIVE us understanding, right? What UNDERSTANDING did the Son of God GIVE us?

    Do you agree that the Son of God CAME so that we can UNDERSTAND that 1) we know HIM who is true; 2) we are in "HIM who is true"; and 3) we are EVEN in "HIS son, Jesus Christ".

    Now, tell me HONESTLY OldShepherd, WHO is "HIM who is TRUE?" Isn't Jesus the SON of "HIM who is true?" Is Jesus "HIM who is TRUE?" If Jesus is "HIM who is TRUE," WHERE is his son Jesus Christ? Please answer HONESTLY OldShepherd. 

     You are WRONG in ASSUMING that Thomas called Jesus God.

    Let me ask you OldShepherd, haven't you heard people say "my God" at all? Where have you been OldShepherd? If I say to you, "my God," because I find your arguments appalling, do you ASSUME that I consider you MY God?

    Answer me HONESTLY OldShepherd, is Thomas a DISCIPLE of Christ? Do you HONESTLY know what a DISCIPLE of Christ is?

    A DISCIPLE of Christ BELIEVES in Christ and ABIDES in his word (John 8:31). Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). There is NO record in the Bible that says Thomas was NOT a DISCIPLE of Christ.

    Granted without admitting that Thomas THOUGHT that Jesus is God. Being a Jew and having been raised to address God as "Lord God," Thomas would have called Jesus "my Lord God" if he truly THOUGHT that Jesus is God. But Thomas is a DISCIPLE of Christ who BELIEVED that "for them, there is ONLY ONE God, the Father...and ONLY ONE Lord, Jesus Christ..." (1 Cor. 8:6 TEV).

    Thomas was NOT addressing Jesus as "his God."

    You come across as very knowledgeable in the English language, yet you FAIL to understand why Thomas uttered "my Lord and my God."

    John 20:28 is Thomas' reaction to Jesus invitation to him to put his hand into his side in order for him to BELIEVE that he has INDEED risen. His answer INDICATES that Thomas finally believes in the Lord (Jesus) and also BELIEVES in God. Jesus TAUGHT his DISCIPLES to BELIEVE in God and ALSO to BELIEVE in him (John 14:1).

    Jesus' remark (John 20:29) is a REBUKE to Thomas for NOT believing that he had risen when he was told by the eleven that they had SEEN Jesus (John 20:25).  



    No need to verify the writings of the so-called "early church Fathers" because even while apostle Paul was still alive, they were already teaching ANOTHER Jesus that the apostles had NOT preached (2 Cor. 11:3-4; cf.Gal. 1:6-8).

    These so-called "early church Fathers" were those who "fell away" or turned away from the true faith. Their doctrine about Jesus and God is diametrically OPPOSSED to what Jesus and the apostles TAUGHT.

    Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). The apostles TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God (1 Cor. 8:6). The apostles further TAUGHT that Jesus HAS a God and Father  (Eph. 1:3; Col. 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) in accordance with what Jesus TAUGHT in John 20:17.

    Ignatius was an APOSTATE bishop.

    Justin and Irenaeus were APOSTATE bishops. 


    Ed
     
  16. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Tell me humblejoe, if BAPTISM is NOT necessary because the thief on the cross was NOT baptized, WHY did Jesus COMMAND his DISCIPLES to BAPTIZE (Matt. 28:19) those who HEAR and BELIEVE the gospel (Mark 16:15), adding that those who BELIEVE the gospel and get BAPTIZED will be saved (Mark 16:16)?

    FYI, Jesus GAVE these COMMANDS after God has RAISED him from the dead. Do you BELIEVE that Jesus FORGOT what he did to the thief and GAVE an unnecessary command?

    No humblejoe, Jesus LEFT these instructions  because he ws NO LONGER around to GRANT exceptions. While ON EARTH, Jesus had the authority to FORGIVE sins (Mark 2:10) any time as he WILLED. Today, FORGIVENESS of sins is GRANTED only to those who have been REDEEMED by the blood of Christ. And REDEMPTION through Christ's blood is FOUND only in the "kingdom of God's Son" (Col. 1:13-14).

    This "kingdom" is the church of Christ which Christ PURCHASED with his own blood (Acts 20:28 Lamsa). That church of Christ in these last days is the IGLESIA NI CRISTO.

    Ed
     
  17. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by OldShepherd
    From WHOM did this professor/scholar LEARN what he TEACHES to PhD candidates? Didn't you know OldShepherd that what is true in computer world is ALSO true in the study of the word of God? Garbage in garbage out they say. And the Bible explains: "always learning and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH" (2 Tim. 3:7).

    You see OldShepherd, ONLY a messenger SENT from God CAN deliver messages FROM God. One who is NOT from God is UNTAUGHT and UNSTABLE and TWISTS the writings of apostle Paul to his own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

    Why can you NOT answer these questions OldShepherd? Are they too hard for your learned professor/scholar friend to answer?  BTW, by all means, ask the same questions and I'll answer them.



    You are MISREPRESENTING apostle Paul OldShepherd. Apostle Paul NEVER wrote that Jesus is God. That is ONLY what your mind wants apostle Paul to say in his writings. Apostle Paul wrote that Jesus is a MAN (Rom. 5:15) because that was what Jesus TAUGHT him (John 8:40).

    But your INTERPRETATION is INDEED wrong OldShepherd. Why can't you tell me WHY aposle Paul wrote that Jesus is a MAN and the Father is the Only One God of Christians if he knew that Jesus is ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father? Because you know that apostle Paul did NOT categorically say that Jesus is God, that's WHY! 

    What "Iglesias ni Manalo" are you referring to? Can you SEE how MISREPRESENT facts? Is this the kind of "christian" you are? Do you truly know what "blasphemy" means? I'm afraid you're talking way beyond your head OldShepherd.

    Phil. 2:6-11 mean EXACTLY what it says but NOT what you have in mind. It means that Jesus was IN THE FORM of God (image - Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3). What FORM of God was Jesus in? He was able to perform miracles, wonders and signs which God DID through him (Acts 2:22). He was able to FORGIVE sins because he was AUTHORIZED by God (Acts 5:31).



    What FORM of a servant was Jesus in? He was HUMBLE and OBEDIENT.

    Jesus was NOT made "in the likeness" of men. The Bible teaches that Jesus "CAME in the flesh" or "CAME as a human being" (1 John 4:2-3). Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40) The apostles TAUGHT that he is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; Rom. 5:15; 1 Tim. 2:5).

    Ed
     
  18. Soul_Searcher

    Soul_Searcher Contributor

    +249
    Other Religion
    Ed you argue well, but it's still all about interpretation and faith. (and I noticed you skipped over my comments--no surprise) When someone comes and says, "I am a messenger from God," it is met with much skepticism, and rightly so. It is when that person puts his/her words into action that it matters.

    The actions of your messenger, as well as those of Joseph Smith and Charles Russell, in circling the wagons and making their group exclusive (we are the ONLY true church) shows that they are not true messengers, any more than Jim Jones or David Koresh were. They may have had glimpses of truth, but once they put themselves as the final authority they reveal themselves as the power hungry wolves they are.

    Jesus in his time among us welcomed everyone. He told us to have faith in God alone, to put away the cares and wants of the world and follow him in a spiritual life. He said we could move mountains and heal people if we only had faith enough. He said to feed the hungry, clothe those without, visit those in prison, forgive your enemies, turn the other cheek, and especially love your neighbor as yourself. There is nothing exclusive about Jesus' love; it is universal, for everyone, forever.

    Now you can quote Paul all you want, but when Jesus says, "I and the Father are One," and also says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed...nothing shall be impossible unto you," he is saying he is God, for God is in him, AND, God is in each of us, for if we realized that and had faith in that we can be like him. Are these the things your messenger and administration is telling you to do? If not, I think you need to reassess your faith in them, and simply put your faith in God and Jesus.
     
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
    Look at the verse again and tell me, did Jesus say he and the Father are one GOD? If I say to you that Jesus meant they are ONE in caring for the sheep, would you believe it? No, you won't because you WANT John 10:30 to SAY what is in YOUR mind.

    It matters my friend because God will DESTROY those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8-9).

    I DID The WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21).

    Those who ENDURE to he end will be saved from God' WRATH (Rom. 5:9). 

    Why my friend? Don't you believe that  baptism into the church  where you are a member of is necessary for salvation?

    While it is true that Jesus was God's messenger, Christ himself SENT messengers to preach the gospel when he was still on earth. In Matt. 10:40 he SAID: " He who RECEIVES you RECEIVES me, and he who RECEIVES me, RECEIVES the Father who SENT me."

    And in Luke 10:16 Jesus SAID: "He who HEARS you HEARS me, he who REJECTS you REJECTS me, and he who REJECTS me REJECTS Him who SENT me."

    That's the STANDARD response of churches who do NOT have a messenger SENT from God.

    In Hebrews 13:17, God SAID: "Obey those who RULE over you, and be SUBMISSIVE, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that woyld be UNPROFITABLE for you." 

    This is what God SAID: "Now I plead with you brethren by the name of he Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the SAME thing, and that there be NO divisions among you, but that you be perfectly JOINED together in the SAME mind and in the SAME judgment" (1 Cor. 1:10).

    A church WITHOUT  a messenger SENT from God CANNOT deliver messages FROM God. Hence, that church CANNOT be the church that Christ PURCHASED with his blood. Apostle Paul  rhetorically asked: "But how can hey prech UNLESS they are SENT" (Rom. 10:15).

    Your unbelief does NOT make it wrong either. And since you CANNOT show anything to PROVE that your church HAS a messenger FROM God, there is NO assurance that the doctrines that YOUR church teach are OF God. 

    Eph. 5:25 teaches that Christ LOVED his church so much that he GAVE his life for it. If it is NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ GAVE his life for, tell me what church it is.

    Eph. 5:23 teaches that Christ is the SAVIOR of the church, his BODY. If it is NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ will save, tell me what church it is.

    In John 10:9, Jesus SAID: "Most assuredly I say to you, 'I am the door.' If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved. God COMMANDS people to LISTEN to Jesus (Matt. 17:5).

    Thus, anyone who WANTS to be saved MUST, as you say, DO as Jesus INSTRUCTS. Where MUST people ENTER in order to be SAVED?

    The Bible teaches that Christ is the SAVIOR of the CHURCH, his BODY (Eph. 5:23). Thus, it stands to reason that one must ENTER the CHURCH, his BODY in order to be saved.

    Ed
     
  20. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Originally posted by Soul_Searcher
    Look at the verse again and tell me, did Jesus say he and the Father are one GOD? If I say to you that Jesus meant they are ONE in caring for the sheep, would you believe it? No, you won't because you WANT John 10:30 to SAY what is in YOUR mind.

    It matters my friend because God will DESTROY those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thes. 1:8-9).

    I DID The WILL of the Father in heaven (Matt. 7:21).

    Those who ENDURE to he end will be saved from God' WRATH (Rom. 5:9). 

    Why my friend? Don't you believe that  baptism into the church  where you are a member of is necessary for salvation?

    While it is true that Jesus was God's messenger, Christ himself SENT messengers to preach the gospel when he was still on earth. In Matt. 10:40 he SAID: " He who RECEIVES you RECEIVES me, and he who RECEIVES me, RECEIVES the Father who SENT me."

    And in Luke 10:16 Jesus SAID: "He who HEARS you HEARS me, he who REJECTS you REJECTS me, and he who REJECTS me REJECTS Him who SENT me."

    That's the STANDARD response of churches who do NOT have a messenger SENT from God.

    In Hebrews 13:17, God SAID: "Obey those who RULE over you, and be SUBMISSIVE, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that woyld be UNPROFITABLE for you." 

    This is what God SAID: "Now I plead with you brethren by the name of he Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the SAME thing, and that there be NO divisions among you, but that you be perfectly JOINED together in the SAME mind and in the SAME judgment" (1 Cor. 1:10).

    A church WITHOUT  a messenger SENT from God CANNOT deliver messages FROM God. Hence, that church CANNOT be the church that Christ PURCHASED with his blood. Apostle Paul  rhetorically asked: "But how can hey prech UNLESS they are SENT" (Rom. 10:15).

    Your unbelief does NOT make it wrong either. And since you CANNOT show anything to PROVE that your church HAS a messenger FROM God, there is NO assurance that the doctrines that YOUR church teach are OF God. 

    Eph. 5:25 teaches that Christ LOVED his church so much that he GAVE his life for it. If it is NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ GAVE his life for, tell me what church it is.

    Eph. 5:23 teaches that Christ is the SAVIOR of the church, his BODY. If it is NOT the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ will save, tell me what church it is.

    In John 10:9, Jesus SAID: "Most assuredly I say to you, 'I am the door.' If anyone ENTERS by me, he will be saved. God COMMANDS people to LISTEN to Jesus (Matt. 17:5).

    Thus, anyone who WANTS to be saved MUST, as you say, DO as Jesus INSTRUCTS. Where MUST people ENTER in order to be SAVED?

    The Bible teaches that Christ is the SAVIOR of the CHURCH, his BODY (Eph. 5:23). Thus, it stands to reason that one must ENTER the CHURCH, his BODY in order to be saved.

    Ed
     
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