If....

[renniks]

You are creating another false dichotomy. There is nothing special about the elect. They are the same as the reprobate by nature. God is in no way obligated to save any of us. Those that He did not choose get exactly as they deserve in strict justice and the elect get what they do not deserve. Your idea that one soul is saved at the expense of another is utter nonsense.

You do err not knowing the Scriptures.

I've read the scripture since I could read, for forty plus years. I beg to differ. So God chooses based on nothing?

 

[renniks]

First, Paul is not God. Paul has no right or authority to make a difference between men. He was a sinner in need of mercy like you and me.

Second, Paul goes on to clearly show God's sovereignty in electing love in the rest of Rom. 9.

If you have a problem with how and whom God saves it is with God not men. It seems that you do not want God to be God.

You didn't answer. Was Paul more merciful than God? Have you ever read Romans with out your Calvinist lenses on?

 

[twin1954]

I've read the scripture since I could read, for forty plus years. I beg to differ. So God chooses based on nothing?

The Scribes and Pharisees read Scriptures too and knew them well. But they had no idea of the message of the Scriptures. They missed Christ because they thought that they knew the Scriptures.

Electing love is based solely on God's purpose to save.

John 5:39-40 (KJV) 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Ephesians 1:7-11 (KJV) 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[twin1954]

You didn't answer. Was Paul more merciful than God? Have you ever read Romans with out your Calvinist lenses on?

I did answer. You just didn't like the answer so you ignored it.

I never read the Scriptures with Calvinst lenses on. I read the Scriptures with the light of the Spirit on. That light of the glory of God shines in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:6 (KJV) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[renniks]

The Scribes and Pharisees read Scriptures too and knew them well. But they had no idea of the message of the Scriptures. They missed Christ because they thought that they knew the Scriptures.

Electing love is based solely on God's purpose to save.

John 5:39-40 (KJV) 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Ephesians 1:7-11 (KJV) 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Um, so are you saying you don't get what you believe from the scripture? And do you think this verse proves limited atonement? And are you saying I'm a Pharisee merely because I'm not Calvinist?

 

[renniks]

never read the Scriptures with Calvinst lenses on. I read the Scriptures with the light of the Spirit on. That light of the glory of God shines in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jesus was not willing any should perish. That certainly does reflect his glory.

 

[Hammster]

Jesus was not willing any should perish. That certainly does reflect his glory.

If that were true, all would be saved. What He did say was that those who weren’t His sheep did not hear and follow.

 

[renniks]

If that were true, all would be saved. What He did say was that those who weren’t His sheep did not hear and follow.

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Those who don't hear and follow are not his, correct. I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic? Seems to me that it supports arminianism. If one ceases to hear and follow are they still a sheep?

 

[Hammster]

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Those who don't hear and follow are not his, correct. I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic? Seems to me that it supports arminianism. If one ceases to hear and follow are they still a sheep?

You ignored context on your first reference. But that’s common in synergism.

As to the sheep, here’s what Jesus said.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

The reason for unbelief was because they weren’t His sheep. Not the other way around.

 

[renniks]

You ignored context on your first reference. But that’s common in synergism.

As to the sheep, here’s what Jesus said.


But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
— John 10:26

The reason for unbelief was because they weren’t His sheep. Not the other way around.

Yes after he told them how to become his sheep and they refused.
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
Does whoever not mean whoever?

 

[Hammster]

Yes after he told them how to become his sheep and they refused.
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
Does whoever not mean whoever?

Only sheep enter through the sheep gate. Entering the gate doesn’t make you a sheep.

 

[renniks]

Only sheep enter through the sheep gate. Entering the gate doesn’t make you a sheep.

Not very good with metaphors are you?
The sheep are defined as all who will listen and follow the Shepard. Does whoever mean whoever?

 

[Hammster]

Not very good with metaphors are you?
The sheep are defined as all who will listen and follow the Shepard. Does whoever mean whoever?

I’ve explained that it’s sheep who enter the sheep gate. It’s not just anyone. If non-sheep were allowed to enter, it wouldn’t say much about the Shepherd.

With that said, the “whoever” is going to be sheep. They are the only ones who will want to enter for their hear their Shepherd’s voice and follow Him.

 

[twin1954]

Um, so are you saying you don't get what you believe from the scripture? And do you think this verse proves limited atonement? And are you saying I'm a Pharisee merely because I'm not Calvinist?

Favorite tactic of those who have no real argument. You put words in my mouth in order to create a red herring. Make a valid argument instead of false dichotomies and red herrings.

 

[twin1954]

Jesus was not willing any should perish. That certainly does reflect his glory.

3rd grade English refutes your statement. God is not willing that any of us should perish. The context you claim to hold to in your previous post makes it clear who Peter is talking about. The Bible was not written to unbelievers but to believers. So your statement is just another twist of Scriptures.

 

[twin1954]

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Those who don't hear and follow are not his, correct. I don't see how that has anything to do with the topic? Seems to me that it supports arminianism. If one ceases to hear and follow are they still a sheep?

You are using a poor translation of the Greek. The NASB is considered the most accurate translation of the Greek and it says the same as the ESV that I quote here:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peter was writing to those who had obtained like precious faith:

2 Peter 1:1 (ESV) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Now apply that knowledge to 2Pet. 3:9. In the Greek context defines how words are used and their interpretation. Pantas in the Greek is tied closely to the context. It means, in it's context, all of you.

Therefore your assertion is false.

 

[twin1954]

Yes after he told them how to become his sheep and they refused.
" I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."
Does whoever not mean whoever?

You don't become sheep you either are or you are not. When you hear the voice of the Shepherd you follow Him.

The door, which is Christ, it to the sheepfold not to the goat barn.

Whosoever means exactly that. But only the sheep want to enter. Anyone who desires to be saved by sovereign mercy are saved. THe Lord does not refuse any who want mercy. The problem is that most don't want it.

Once more you twist words and produce meanings that simply aren't true.

 

[twin1954]

Not very good with metaphors are you?
The sheep are defined as all who will listen and follow the Shepard. Does whoever mean whoever?

No the sheep are defined as those who are taught of God.

John 6:44-45 (KJV) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[renniks]

I’ve explained that it’s sheep who enter the sheep gate. It’s not just anyone. If non-sheep were allowed to enter, it wouldn’t say much about the Shepherd.

With that said, the “whoever” is going to be sheep. They are the only ones who will want to enter for their hear their Shepherd’s voice and follow Him.

You are totally reading it backwards. Before he says they are sheep, he explains that the way to become a sheep is to enter through him.
Why would you assume there's restrictions on who can enter when it says whoever?

 

[renniks]

Favorite tactic of those who have no real argument. You put words in my mouth in order to create a red herring. Make a valid argument instead of false dichotomies and red herrings.

No answers?