If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

BrotherAtArms said:

The Bible says that marriage is a "covenant." Read Malachi 2:14. According to historical documents (like the Jewish Mishnah), a bride and bridegroom were taken to a rabbi. In the presence of witnesses a public document was recorded and signed by witnesses. (All covenants had witnesses.)

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If witnesses are needed, I already have hundreds of them. The problem is, they claim they didn't see anything. That is, they only look for the "appearance of evil" and somehow christians, of all people, manage to see evil in a relationship that is all about love and commitment.

The problem for me, and many many others, isn't that we lack witnesses, but that the witnesses pretend they don't see. But I obivously won't let that determine whether or not I'm in a covenant with my woman.

BrotherAtArms said:

This was a written covenant of marriage. Of course, marriage ceremonies were also a common practice - simply because the couple and the parents wanted everyone to celebrate the couples' marriage. You will remember that Jesus attend one of these Jewish marriage ceremonies (John 2:1-2).

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Yes, but the fact that something is/was a tradition among the jews (or anybody else) doesn't mean that it's something I must do today to get God's approval.

We are getting married in July, though. It will be a celebration of our relationship, not a requirement for it.

BrotherAtArms said:

The problem with commitments made to ONLY each other and God are that we are very sinful human beings. And as sinful human beings, we do not keep our commitments. We may intend to, but we "fall out of love" and we forget that Biblical love is commitment and sacrifice, not just a feeling. It is much easier to leave a relationship when there is no one to hold me accountable to my vows (another Biblical concept).

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I'd turn that around - a promise is worth much more if you don't try and secure it by having someone hold you accountable. A covenant isn't about having someone policing you. You're talking more about some sort of contract, and the very concept of a contract is based on the idea that you can't trust the other party. I want my woman to stay with me voluntarily, not because a bunch of people are holding her accountable to some promise.

BrotherAtArms said:

The bottom line is this: in the cases of couples that aren't willing to make their vows in public - either one or both of the individuals doesn't want to make a lifetime commitment to this marriage.

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I take exception (and a little bit of offense) to that.

My commitment is real, and it's for life, so help me God. But I really don't feel like making some vow in a church would do much to secure our relationship - I mean, in some states christians divorce more often than atheists! The whole accountability, promise-keeping thing just doesn't work, apparently (and don't forget how many couples who probably wish they could get divorced, but can't, because of religious rules). I need something better than that.

BrotherAtArms said:

When I got married, I wanted to know that this person was committed to me even when they didn't "feel" in love with me, even when I'm sick, even when I'm poor, even when I'm mentally ill. That's the kind of love that Christ has for those who commit to Him and marriage is supposed to be a picture of Christ's love for His church (Ephesians 5:21).

So back to the original question: "Do I need a marriage ceremony?" No, but you and your partner do need a public covenant with witnesses.

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Personally, I don't need any such thing at all. My trust in my woman and is completely independent of a ceremony. I don't even need witnesses - I'm in the middle of this relationship myself, I know what's going on, better than anybody else.

holo said:

If witnesses are needed, I already have hundreds of them. The problem is, they claim they didn't see anything. That is, they only look for the "appearance of evil" and somehow christians, of all people, manage to see evil in a relationship that is all about love and commitment.

The problem for me, and many many others, isn't that we lack witnesses, but that the witnesses pretend they don't see. But I obivously won't let that determine whether or not I'm in a covenant with my woman.

Yes, but the fact that something is/was a tradition among the jews (or anybody else) doesn't mean that it's something I must do today to get God's approval.

We are getting married in July, though. It will be a celebration of our relationship, not a requirement for it.

I'd turn that around - a promise is worth much more if you don't try and secure it by having someone hold you accountable. A covenant isn't about having someone policing you. You're talking more about some sort of contract, and the very concept of a contract is based on the idea that you can't trust the other party. I want my woman to stay with me voluntarily, not because a bunch of people are holding her accountable to some promise.

I take exception (and a little bit of offense) to that.

My commitment is real, and it's for life, so help me God. But I really don't feel like making some vow in a church would do much to secure our relationship - I mean, in some states christians divorce more often than atheists! The whole accountability, promise-keeping thing just doesn't work, apparently (and don't forget how many couples who probably wish they could get divorced, but can't, because of religious rules). I need something better than that.

Personally, I don't need any such thing at all. My trust in my woman and is completely independent of a ceremony. I don't even need witnesses - I'm in the middle of this relationship myself, I know what's going on, better than anybody else.

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Well then, I suppose then that you need no one at all to help you. You seem to be doing a great job doing things to your own standards, so God be with you.

BrotherAtArms said:

Well then, I suppose then that you need no one at all to help you. You seem to be doing a great job doing things to your own standards, so God be with you.

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No, actually, if you read my post you will see that I've decided to go with God's standards instead of traditions and man-made rules. If you read what I actually write, you'll see that I am in fact valuing and respecting marriage more than the average "biblical" christian.

You said that you don't need a document... you may be doing things the right way, but you don't seem to believe in it. But you don't have to try to convince me otherwise, you've already made your decision to do things the right way, so I'm not worried about your eternal soul. People you may influence however... that's a different story.

Read this a moment ago, reminded me of this thread, just thought I'd share it:
1 Peter 2:13-14
13 Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.

John 4:16-18



16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."



I know this thread has pretty much died, but I read this the other day and it reminded me of the discussion here, and my initial thought of this passage is, "Neither the woman who is living with the man nor Jesus considered the man she's living with her husband.

BrotherAtArms said:

Read this a moment ago, reminded me of this thread, just thought I'd share it:
1 Peter 2:13-14
13 Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.

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But I'm not breaking any ordinance by sharing an apartment with my woman, or by having sex with her.

holo said:

But I'm not breaking any ordinance by sharing an apartment with my woman, or by having sex with her.

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You're breaking God's ordinance by having sex with her, and that's far above any man-made ordinance.

Danc922 said:

You're breaking God's ordinance by having sex with her, and that's far above any man-made ordinance.

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As far as I and her are concerned, we're partners for life. It's about love and commitment and honesty, not about some ceremony. You may look only to a piece of paper, but God looks to the heart. God has not ordained that I need the approval of some priest, a ceremony, or a contract, to be man and wife.

holo said:

As far as I and her are concerned, we're partners for life. It's about love and commitment and honesty, not about some ceremony. You may look only to a piece of paper, but God looks to the heart. God has not ordained that I need the approval of some priest, a ceremony, or a contract, to be man and wife.

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Believe what you wish. You'll have to answer to God for it someday.

holo said:

As far as I and her are concerned, we're partners for life. It's about love and commitment and honesty, not about some ceremony. You may look only to a piece of paper, but God looks to the heart. God has not ordained that I need the approval of some priest, a ceremony, or a contract, to be man and wife.

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That's so contradictory to what the Bible teaches.
Jesus did not except that the woman at the well was even married "in their heart", but were living together.
Also, the Bible teaches (if getting a divorce) that you should hand them a [document] of divorce. A paper.
If you met Jesus at the well, I believe that the conversation between the two of you would be similar to the woman at the well's.

"The woman you are living with is not your wife."

Danc922 said:

Believe what you wish. You'll have to answer to God for it someday.

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I'm answering to God every day, with a clean conscience.

BrotherAtArms said:

That's so contradictory to what the Bible teaches.

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What's contradictory to the bible?

That it's about love and honesty? That it's not determined by a ceremony? That God looks to the heart? That God doesn't need the approval of a priest or a piece of paper?

Danc922 said:

Jesus did not except that the woman at the well was even married "in their heart", but were living together.

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It doesn't say they were living together. She was being dishonest, and Jesus called her out on it. I really don't see how it applies to my situation.

Danc922 said:

Also, the Bible teaches (if getting a divorce) that you should hand them a [document] of divorce. A paper.

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It does? Well, I guess you can find that in the mosaic law. But so what? I've never been jewish, I've never been under the law. You can't just pick random commandments and ordinances from the law and act like they apply to me.

Danc922 said:

If you met Jesus at the well, I believe that the conversation between the two of you would be similar to the woman at the well's.

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Except that I'm already honest with Him and I haven't had five "wifes" previously.

Danc922 said:

"The woman you are living with is not your wife."

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But if I could show him a paper that said that she was, He would have to agree?

holo said:

What's contradictory to the bible?

That it's about love and honesty? That it's not determined by a ceremony? That God looks to the heart? That God doesn't need the approval of a priest or a piece of paper?

It doesn't say they were living together. She was being dishonest, and Jesus called her out on it. I really don't see how it applies to my situation.

It does? Well, I guess you can find that in the mosaic law. But so what? I've never been jewish, I've never been under the law. You can't just pick random commandments and ordinances from the law and act like they apply to me.

Except that I'm already honest with Him and I haven't had five "wifes" previously.

But if I could show him a paper that said that she was, He would have to agree?

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John 4:18
For you have had five husbands, and the man you are now living with is not your husband. In this you have spoken truly.

I'm not Jewish either, but I am a firm believer that the Bible is the Word of God. If you say that the law doesn't apply to you, making you somehow exempt from God's Holy Law, I offer you these 2 passages...

Galatians 3:17
What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Romans 3:29-31
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

No, we are not saved by the law, but by faith, but because of our faith, the law is made even stronger. And remember that Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

It cannot be said, therefore, that the Old Testament laws only apply to Israel. Such a statement was not true when the laws were first given, and it is not true now.

The parts of the Law that have been rendered obsolete are those that contain ordinances. An ordinance is either a memorial of something that has already passed or a type of something in the future. The Old Testament laws containing ordinances were not meant to be permanent. There are no ordinances in the Ten Commandment Law.

Now, we must remember that following rules and regulations will not get us into heaven. It is only through the blood of Jesus that we can see heaven. But if we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15).

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http://www.hoshuha.com/articles/moses.html

Romans 2:11-15
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

holo said:

I'm answering to God every day, with a clean conscience.

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That doesn't make it right. Serial killers murder with a clean conscience. God's inerrant Word says it's sin. Like I said, you'll answer to God someday, and according to His Word, you'll answer for your sin.

BrotherAtArms said:

John 4:18
For you have had five husbands, and the man you are now living with is not your husband. In this you have spoken truly.

I'm not Jewish either, but I am a firm believer that the Bible is the Word of God. If you say that the law doesn't apply to you, making you somehow exempt from God's Holy Law

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Well, do you think that YOU are under the law? Or do you belive, like most other christians, that you are under only certain parts of the law?

BrotherAtArms said:

I offer you these 2 passages...

Galatians 3:17
What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

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Exactly

I'm a heir to Abraham, a child according to the promise. I'm not a heir to Moses and a child according to the law.

BrotherAtArms said:

Romans 3:29-31
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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Do you mean that you are upholding the law? The entire law?

BrotherAtArms said:

No, we are not saved by the law, but by faith, but because of our faith, the law is made even stronger.

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How can that be, when by faith we DIE to the law? How can the law be made stronger when we're dead to it?

BrotherAtArms said:

And remember that Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

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Again, exactly

Danc922 said:

That doesn't make it right.

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True. My conscience is clear, like Paul's, but that doesn't make me righteous. God makes me righteous.

BrotherAtArms said:

Like I said, you'll answer to God someday, and according to His Word, you'll answer for your sin.

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No I won't, because He has taken my sin as far from me as the east is from the west, and He will remember my transgressions no more. Jesus Christ Himself IS my righteousness. I have no righteousness that isn't Christ. My sin has already been dealt with, once and for all, on the cross.

But again, I'm not sinning by sharing an apartment with my fiancé or by being intimate with my life partner just because we haven't dropped by the mayor's office to sign a paper. Who is the priest, or the mayor, or the imam for that matter, who has this power to decide whether God approves or disapproves of a relationship?

holo said:

True. My conscience is clear, like Paul's, but that doesn't make me righteous. God makes me righteous.

No I won't, because He has taken my sin as far from me as the east is from the west, and He will remember my transgressions no more. Jesus Christ Himself IS my righteousness. I have no righteousness that isn't Christ. My sin has already been dealt with, once and for all, on the cross.

But again, I'm not sinning by sharing an apartment with my fiancé or by being intimate with my life partner just because we haven't dropped by the mayor's office to sign a paper. Who is the priest, or the mayor, or the imam for that matter, who has this power to decide whether God approves or disapproves of a relationship?

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It sounds to me that you're in denial that you are still human, if you're human, then you still sin. So you still need to live a righteous life. Remember that Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep My commandments."

As to when you asked if I believed I was still under the law, assuming you mean the mosaic/levitical law, then I believe I am still required to do exactly what the Bible says. The New Testament teaches what is not in effect, so we as the reader/follower of the Word of God must believe that unless the Word says otherwise, then certain laws are still in effect. It never teaches that marriage is not a ceremony/documented event, so I have to assume, if I want to please God, that it is what it is.
It's like homosexual relationships. In the book of Leviticus it is commanded NOT to do it, so I guess my next question to you is do you believe that homosexuality is still wrong, or do you believe that the New Testament does away with that sin?

One other question would be, since you believe that you're married though you never did anything to become married, how did you're 'marriage' take place? And if it's the sex, then there are a lot of people out here that have over 10 wives.

who has this power to decide whether God approves or disapproves of a relationship?

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God's ordained. Did Paul have the power? Apparently yes, He wrote it. Did Moses? Apparently yes, He wrote it, as well. Who gives the man the right to become ordained or teach or to marry? God, and God is a God of law, and He will not have His law broken, because you WILL be judged by it.

No, I'm not a person that believes in salvation by works, but I do believe that Faith without works is like a body without a soul.

BrotherAtArms said:

The Bible says that marriage is a "covenant." Read Malachi 2:14. According to historical documents (like the Jewish Mishnah), a bride and bridegroom were taken to a rabbi. In the presence of witnesses a public document was recorded and signed by witnesses. (All covenants had witnesses.) This was a written covenant of marriage. Of course, marriage ceremonies were also a common practice - simply because the couple and the parents wanted everyone to celebrate the couples' marriage. You will remember that Jesus attend one of these Jewish marriage ceremonies (John 2:1-2).

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By the way, this covenant was written and signed in Jewish culture upon the betrothal of the couple, after which they were called man and wife, and often there was an elaborate feast being planned for roughly a year or so later, but not always. Sometimes they just departed and did their thing.

Also if you look at Exodus 22:16-17, it says,
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.
If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.


Notice this has to deal with a man and a woman who are NOT pledged to be married. Thus, I would assume, that if they WERE pledged to be married, it would be assumed less than the ideal situation (meaning no big party for the couple) but the marriage was consummated.

BrotherAtArms said:

It sounds to me that you're in denial that you are still human, if you're human, then you still sin. So you still need to live a righteous life.

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I may still sin, but that doesn't change the fact that Christ is my righteousness. My righteousness isn't a result of my behaviour. But yes, I do need to live a righteous life. And to live a righteous life, I must realize that I AM righteous. If you see yourself as a sinner you will act like a sinner. But you will act like a righteous man to the degree that you realize that you ARE righteous. It's about walking in faith, it's about doing what Peter did - fixing your eyes on Christ and walk on water.

BrotherAtArms said:

Remember that Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep My commandments."

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What are His commandments? Do you keep them? If not, can I conclude that you don't really love Him?

BrotherAtArms said:

As to when you asked if I believed I was still under the law, assuming you mean the mosaic/levitical law, then I believe I am still required to do exactly what the Bible says. The New Testament teaches what is not in effect

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Yes it does
It says we are dead to the law, which pretty much means the law is not in effect for the believer. For the unbeliever it is still very much in effect. And the effect of the law is to make us guilty, the effect of the law is to make sin exceedingly sinful.

There's no particular part of the law that I'm not dead to. Had I been under the law, I would've been under the entire law. The new covenant is not based on law, but on the blood of Christ. It's a righteousness that is from faith to faith.

BrotherAtArms said:

It never teaches that marriage is not a ceremony/documented event, so I have to assume, if I want to please God, that it is what it is.

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That argument doesn't really work. I mean, the bible doesn't teach that you are NOT supposed to wear sandals, so we must make sure not to wear sneakers if we want to please God...

Besides, it's not even likely that they documented stuff like we do today. Where's the ceremony when Jacob went into the woman's tent and made her (his SECOND) wife?

If jewish customs are anything to go by, then the only "document" is to keep the sheet of the marriage bed - the blood on it was supposed to be proof that your wife was a virgin, and it could be used against her (if there was no blood) if you wanted to divorce her.

BrotherAtArms said:

It's like homosexual relationships. In the book of Leviticus it is commanded NOT to do it, so I guess my next question to you is do you believe that homosexuality is still wrong, or do you believe that the New Testament does away with that sin?

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What I believe about homosexuality isn't determined by the OT.

In general, I don't approve or disapprove of things because I can find some commandment about it somewhere, expecially not from the Law, which has never applied to me anyway. For example, when I refrain from stealing, it's not because some bible verse commands me to. Or when I drive sensibly. Or when I stay faithful and committed to my woman.

But you touch on a very importan subject; why do we do the things we do? If you're being kind to me, for example, is it because you actually care, or are you just trying to follow some commandment from the bible?

BrotherAtArms said:

One other question would be, since you believe that you're married though you never did anything to become married, how did you're 'marriage' take place?

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I think it took place when we both realized, and decided, that we want to spend the rest of our lives together and put the other before ourselves. I think God has joined us together.

BrotherAtArms said:

And if it's the sex, then there are a lot of people out here that have over 10 wives.

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True dat

BrotherAtArms said:

God's ordained.

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But I don't see any record of when or where that happened. I mean, in the levitical priesthood I'm sure the priests had some sort of authority like that, but they are no more. In fact, we're all priests now.

And did God also ordain imams and shamans and mayors to do this on his behalf?

BrotherAtArms said:

Did Paul have the power? Apparently yes, He wrote it.

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What do you mean? That Paul had the power to wed people?

BrotherAtArms said:

Who gives the man the right to become ordained or teach or to marry? God, and God is a God a law, and He will not have His law broken, because you WILL be judged by it.

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If any of us are to be judged by the law, we will all go to hell.

But thankfully, I will not be judged according to the law. The punishment was laid on HIM so that I may have peace. He was judged in my place.

BrotherAtArms said:

No, I'm not a person that believes in salvation by works, but I do believe that Faith without works is like a body without a soul.

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I agree, good way of putting it!