If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

[BrotherAtArms]

I guess you didn't read it right. We did get married legally. My family had it annulled, which they had no right to do. Would not God affirm the vows that we spoke that day and every day? We acted in faith that legally that was what we were supposed to do, and we did. It is not our fault or God's fault that my family acted the way they did.

We would like to get married again but I have been prevented by my family from getting a job (for fear that we would elope) until just recently.

By the way, if a county accidently lost your marriage record, would you no longer be married?

To the first part, educate me on the definition of 'annulled'. If it means that you are no longer married then... you're not married.

To your question, after my wife and I were married she had her name changed, so there's one way of proving it. Another is that in a marriage ceremony there are supposed to be at least 2 witnesses. If by some amazing and pathetic display of ignorance a county was to lose the document that you are supposed to have a copy of that you are in fact married, you still have those two witnesses that can testify that you are married to each other.
However, if you were to ask "What if all documents were lost and/or destroyed and the 2 witnesses were killed, what then?"

I could only offer the verse that says:
2 Timothy 2:23
But avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they give birth to strifes.
(Side Note) I'm not calling or implying that you are unlearned or foolish.

 

[HisLittleHazelnut]

Hypothetical question... but hey it could happen.

What if a government decided that it would annul all marriages between those it found out were Christians? Would they then also be living in sin because they aren't "married."

It was not my choice to end my marriage, nor my fiance's. Our families decided it for us.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Well it is legal isn't it? One of the fruits of the spirit is long suffering. Maybe you could consider that God is allowing this to happen to strengthen that in your life. I can't say God influenced them, no one knows the mind of God, however, Paul's writings are full of teachings on patience, and long suffering.
Especially, also, teachings on enduring hardships and suffering for Christ.
Mat 6:33 says But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. While waiting, put God first in your life and I believe He will honor you to the point that He will turn everything around in your favor. (Keep in mind I'm not saying that you don't put Him first)

 

[holo]

God isn't subject to the government. The government does not have the authority to make God bless or curse anything. What God has joined together, let no man separate.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
And a side note that goes with this verse-
The higher powers - The magistracy; the supreme government. It undoubtedly here refers to the Roman magistracy, and has relation not so much to the rulers as to the supreme “authority” which was established as the constitution of government.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

 

[Ave Maria]

Ok, I may have posted a different opinion earlier on this thread but I have since changed my position so here it goes. No, if you're engaged, it is not still fornicating. It's that simple.

 

[Teufelhund]

Let me throw my situation into the bathwater.

I got married in November 2004, legally, with a few friends around me.
Three days later we got a phone call saying that my FAMILY had the marriage annulled because my fiance had a disability that they believed would make it impossible for him to be a fit husband (he's autistic).
In that state, if one of the parties was under 21, they could legally do that. Unfortunately, the court agreed with them.
We have been separated by thousands of miles ever since.

So I'm waiting to get married again, until we have the money to do so. We repeat our vows nearly every day. We believe that we are still married. I will get to see him in a couple of weeks, and I know it's not wrong to sleep with him. But my family would freak because since it's no longer "legal" it's no longer right.

That's their view. I have mine.

In our engagement, we decided that the only acceptable reason for a break up would be cheating, just like the only just reason to break up a betrothal. And even though he has nearly died (he had a very severe sickness) and could still die someday from this illness, I have stayed with him. Is this not the heart of marriage?

How did your family have the marriage annulled. I'm fairly certain that if both parties are over eighteen and they are emancipated from their parents then there is absolutely nothing they can do. Furthermore I have never heard of state approved annulments. I have heard of religous annulments but not the latter. I would look very carefuly into the laws regarding this, because it is fairly evident that there was some very fast legal footwork involved in this case.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Engaged- pledged to be married.
Married- united in wedlock; wedded - of or pertaining to marriage or married persons.
Annulled- to make void or null; abolish; cancel; invalidate.

My last post here... Engaged = premarriage. Married = after engagement, married life. Annulled = Marriage canceled and invalid.

Ask your self the questions, "Is engagement outside marriage? Is being annulled outside marriage? Is sex outside marriage wrong? Is your conclusion Biblical?"

 

[DanC922]

Ask your self the questions, "Is engagement outside marriage? Is being annulled outside marriage? Is sex outside marriage wrong? Is your conclusion Biblical?"

That right there is where the answer lies. You can deny it to yourself and try to justify sin all you want, but in the end, it's still wrong before God. HE is who you will have to answer to someday. And you WILL have to answer to Him. He knows what's sin, and telling yourself it isn't is not going to change what God says.

 

[holo]

That right there is where the answer lies. You can deny it to yourself and try to justify sin all you want, but in the end, it's still wrong before God. HE is who you will have to answer to someday. And you WILL have to answer to Him. He knows what's sin, and telling yourself it isn't is not going to change what God says.

Yes, we all have to answer to God individually. The government shall not answer for me, I shall not answer for my parents. I shall only answer for myself. God doesn't ask you whether or not I am doing the right thing. He doesn't call up the government to ask whether or not He should accept or reject my actions.

There is ONE Mediator, and that mediator is not a paper, not a priest, imam, tribe leader, society, governor, president, tradition, ceremony or a law.

It's absolutely horrifying to see how christians, of all people, believe it's up to the state, of all instances, to actually determine whether God will bless or curse a relationship. How did things ever go that far?

 

[rppearso]

Yes, we all have to answer to God individually. The government shall not answer for me, I shall not answer for my parents. I shall only answer for myself. God doesn't ask you whether or not I am doing the right thing. He doesn't call up the government to ask whether or not He should accept or reject my actions.

There is ONE Mediator, and that mediator is not a paper, not a priest, imam, tribe leader, society, governor, president, tradition, ceremony or a law.

It's absolutely horrifying to see how christians, of all people, believe it's up to the state, of all instances, to actually determine whether God will bless or curse a relationship. How did things ever go that far?

I dont know anyone who believes what you have just stated. Jesus Christ is the only one who can save us, most people I know dispise the government, I would not want the government to answer for me because God is way above any human government.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

Well here's an interesting question... if 2 people do not have to go through anything at all to make themselves married, then what makes them married in their hearts? If marriage has nothing to do with ordained ministers, law binding agreements between the 2 people, or even the word 'marriage' in a ceremonial way, then what is the point or reason for the Word of God to say not to have sex before marriage?
It makes no sense if 2 people can lay down on the bed and say to each other, "By the grace of God, we are married" then have sex.

No, there is no mediator other than Jesus Christ... for our salvation and pray to God. But one thing that is expected of us, especially as Christians, is that we do things the right way. If anyone tells me that they are married in their heart and it's OK for them to have sex, then it's a false doctrine painted in words of 'wisdom'. Colossians is very clear on that.

 

[holo]

I dont know anyone who believes what you have just stated.

Most of the people I know, do.

Especially if you try to get to the bottom of what they actually believe. Personally I'm continously being condemned as an adulterer (especially here on CF) for the sole reason that the government doesn't label me as "married". As soon as the state does, I apparently cease to be an adulterer, and God will also acknowledge and bless my relationship.

People actually do believe that the government determines how God sees things.

 

[holo]

If anyone tells me that they are married in their heart and it's OK for them to have sex, then it's a false doctrine painted in words of 'wisdom'. Colossians is very clear on that.

It's a falser doctrine if anyone tells you that God acknowledges it and that they're "allowed" to have sex just because the state/their parents/priest/imam decided that they are "married".

God doesn't look to the paper or what anybody else has to say about you. He looks to your heart.

 

[Weasel7711]

Most of the people I know, do.

Well you know some weird people then.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

It's a falser doctrine if anyone tells you that God acknowledges it and that they're "allowed" to have sex just because the state/their parents/priest/imam decided that they are "married".

God doesn't look to the paper or what anybody else has to say about you. He looks to your heart.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.

Now say what you said again without contradicting this verse.

 

[holo]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.

Now say what you said again without contradicting this verse.

Do you believe Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin (or Bush for that matter), or the Burmese junta have been ordained by God? Do you believe abortion laws have been ordained by God? Banning prayer in school? Etc etc.

And God has never ever said that marriage is something the state or anybody else does. Jesus talked about "what God has joined together" and I have no reason to believe that actually means "what God has joined together and the government has sanctioned."

I don't believe that "God has joined together" people who are forced to marry because they got pregnant or children who are wedded at the age of 12 in some cultures, or that He has "joined together" the mormon man with his many wives.

 

[rppearso]

Do you believe Mao and Pol Pot and Stalin (or Bush for that matter), or the Burmese junta have been ordained by God? Do you believe abortion laws have been ordained by God? Banning prayer in school? Etc etc.

And God has never ever said that marriage is something the state or anybody else does. Jesus talked about "what God has joined together" and I have no reason to believe that actually means "what God has joined together and the government has sanctioned."

I don't believe that "God has joined together" people who are forced to marry because they got pregnant or children who are wedded at the age of 12 in some cultures, or that He has "joined together" the mormon man with his many wives.

Alot of these dictators you speak of look at what happened to that nation and look at what is happening to our own nation, thoes leaders that go against god will fall, as far as your marriage being sanctioned by a corrupt government I dont agree has to happen but I do think there needs to be some sort of minister and witnesses.

 

[holo]

Alot of these dictators you speak of look at what happened to that nation and look at what is happening to our own nation, thoes leaders that go against god will fall, as far as your marriage being sanctioned by a corrupt government I dont agree has to happen but I do think there needs to be some sort of minister and witnesses.

Personally I don't believe I need any other witness or minister than God and anyway Jesus said we are ALL priests .

But that's kind of the irony about my situation; I have like a hundred priests and witnesses to our love and commitment, but apparently they believe they have only the authority and responsibility to judge and curse us, rather than bless us and approve of us.

 

[BrotherAtArms]

There is no commandment in the Bible telling a married couple that they have to have a marriage ceremony. That's because a "ceremony" is not the important thing from a Biblical perspective. A public "covenant" is the important thing.

The Bible says that marriage is a "covenant." Read Malachi 2:14. According to historical documents (like the Jewish Mishnah), a bride and bridegroom were taken to a rabbi. In the presence of witnesses a public document was recorded and signed by witnesses. (All covenants had witnesses.) This was a written covenant of marriage. Of course, marriage ceremonies were also a common practice - simply because the couple and the parents wanted everyone to celebrate the couples' marriage. You will remember that Jesus attend one of these Jewish marriage ceremonies (John 2:1-2).

The problem with commitments made to ONLY each other and God are that we are very sinful human beings. And as sinful human beings, we do not keep our commitments. We may intend to, but we "fall out of love" and we forget that Biblical love is commitment and sacrifice, not just a feeling. It is much easier to leave a relationship when there is no one to hold me accountable to my vows (another Biblical concept). Or I can simply deny that I ever took vows in the first place. The bottom line is this: in the cases of couples that aren't willing to make their vows in public - either one or both of the individuals doesn't want to make a lifetime commitment to this marriage. With divorce already being so easy in our society, this just makes walking out of the relationship that much easier when things get tough.

When I got married, I wanted to know that this person was committed to me even when they didn't "feel" in love with me, even when I'm sick, even when I'm poor, even when I'm mentally ill. That's the kind of love that Christ has for those who commit to Him and marriage is supposed to be a picture of Christ's love for His church (Ephesians 5:21).

So back to the original question: "Do I need a marriage ceremony?" No, but you and your partner do need a public covenant with witnesses. That is really the purpose of the Christian wedding "ceremony" - As the wedding ceremony says: to make a public covenant "before God and these witnesses."​

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