If you're engaged, is it still fornicating?

[Weasel7711]

Food for thought:

-You are not going to have a great sex life just because you save sex for marriage. So all problems can be worked through easily within marriage? Why don't you go over to The Marriage Bed's forums and tell that to men and women whose spouses have refused them sex for the last 20 years, despite saving sex until marriage, or to the ones who engaged in premarital sex and for the last 20 years have had a great marital sex life? Follow your beliefs, but do not pretend that they are a systematic ticket to marital bliss.

-Fornication comes from the slang word Fornix, a descendant of Porneia, which meant to have sex with prostitutes, and to break other Levitical sex laws. Premarital sex outside of prostitution was a complete non-issue back then, because marriage occurred in the early teenage years. The things that Peter and Paul wrote were directly related to hot-button issues of the time, be they political or religious or otherwise, and how they related to the life of the early Christian. Premarital sex was not one of these things.

-You who are reading this, no matter who you are, are not the only one to follow the Bible literally and correctly, and you do not have all the Biblical answers and interpretations. When someone disagrees with you, that doesn't make their interpretation wrong. Jesus in fact said, in Matthew 16:19,

This is a reference to the Jewish practice of binding and loosing, in which a rabbi has the authority to either loose a certain teaching (invalidate it), or bind it (uphold it), Example, if he binds the eating of pork, his followers would be sinning to eat pork, If he looses it, then his followers are free to eat pork. Paul's writings, except for those direct commands from God, are standards he writes for his church. It's what he binds and he looses. That means in his church, women must wear head coverings or not speak up in church, but that doesn't make it the standard for all churches.

What does this mean for you? It means the Bible is not just a set in stone, systematic way of being "right". It's a living thing just as much as God is, and like a human father who gives his sons different boundaries according to their needs, God does the same for His children according to our spiritual needs and how we work. To put the Bible as a thing with only one interpretation, is to invalidate the belief that the Bible is scripture that is God-breathed or God-inspired, because what God says and God inspires is not something that can simply be put into neat little compartments by people.

IP, I completely agree with you that a good sex life and waiting until marriage is not indicative of a great marriage, but I believe it helps. If you marry a douchebag (is that word allowed?) your marriage will suck. If you marry someone who puts their effort into making the marriage work and you do the same you can, with the help of God, work out ANY issue, I believe.

I don't necessarily believe that the bible has only one interpretation, but I do believe certain issues have only one interpretation. I think it is extremely dangerous to leave all of scripture up for whoever wants to interpret it however they want, it makes scripture worthless as I can ignore and follow whatever I wish, thus, why do I need it since I am not following God and the Holy Spirit, I am following my own views.

One question. If premarital sex is OK, whats the big deal with adultery? When God made adultery so clear a sin in both the old and new testaments, it was because sex was designed as an act between a man and a woman and them only for all of their lives. That is why it states that the two become one. It is a binding act. To play the devil's advocate, if premarital sex is acceptable, why would adultery be unacceptable or sinful, or even prostitution? Some people might say it is because it belongs in a committed relationship, but that is nowhere in scripture, and since I am not married, my fiance shouldn't mind if I go out and sleep with a prostitute.

 

[ImperialPhantom]

Adultery involves lying, deception, breaking a promise, and hurts all involved. Premarital sex does not necessarily involve any of these, though it can. Also, just to get your thoughts on something, polygamy was never condemned in the Bible, until Paul wrote 'let each man have one wife, and each woman her own husband'. What's your take on that?

 

[sashy]

that isn't entirely true.

Take for example:

Do we still offer up sacrifices to God, as they did in biblical times-no.
So yes, things HAVE changed.

Yes, but then Jesus came so we don't have to make sacrafices to God for forgivenss.

 

[Weasel7711]

Great question. It took me a few hours of wading through a plethora of ridiculously ignorant sources and even a website encouraging Christian Polygamy (christianpolygamy.com). So I came to this article which explains some things, doesn't answer every question but its good enough for me:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/polygamy.html


Back to the topic of fornication. I couldn't find the word "fornix" anywhere other than on medical sites, some body part, but I do know that there are multiple definitions of porneia. However I think the context and the cultural setting determine what it is. I disagree that it was a non-issue since Paul addresses those who are "burning with passion" (which makes the most sense to me to be addressing extra-marital sex) and tells them to marry if they cannot control themselves.
Also, in first century Judaism you could get stoned if you had sex before the year of betrothal ended, since sexual intercourse was what consummated the marriage and made it official. There ARE some people today who believe that sex makes you married to a person, because of this, but I don't know enough theology to take a stand on that. So with this evidence, I wholeheartedly believe it is against God's will to have sex before you are married. Will it completely ruin your marriage? Not necessarily, but I believe that honoring God's laws are a way for us to live life to the fullest, even though it is by His Grace that we are blessed and saved, not because of our observance of said laws.

 

[Monaleezza]

Imagine if Mary & Joseph who were engaged were doing it because they were "engaged"

 

[barefeetonholyground]

If it's ok when you're still engaged, how come Mary and Joseph still maintained their sexual purity? I would vote no.

 

[ClausJohn]

Yes, i do believe sex before marriage counts as sex before marriage...and i don't see what's wrong with that

 

[rppearso]

You do not need to "test drive" before marraige as long as the husband and wife submit to each other. The divorces happen when that submission is not present. Usually its the wife not submitting to the husband sexually which causes the divorce (unless there is some kind of abuse) but I would guess the garden veriety divorce is simply the wife not submitting sexually and the husband is only going to live in missery so long before the porn/prostitutes or affair happens, usually the first 2 because it is difficult to find women willing to sleep with a man who is married. My own marriage almost failed because of sex issues because my wife would not submit to me and put me down when I asked sex/oral/rim but we are finally working through it but it has been very painful. She finally submits to me when I ask for it because I need oral/rim frequently and I make sure she gets intercourse and switch it up.

 

[ClausJohn]

@rppearso: So you don't see *any* contradiction in stating that "test driving" is not necessary, but on the other hand telling us of how your marriage nearly failed because of sex issues?
Ah, yes, and divorces are mostly caused by those worthless women not doing what you want, if it's not the men beating them....sure. You also never considered that *you* might have to submit to *her* and respect *her* wishes?

Btw: Good job in forcing your wife into doing something she obviously doesn't like

 

[holo]

rppearso,
in case you're not just a troll trying to wind us up, I sincerely hope your wife will get the self respect, sense of worth, and confidence to leave you as soon as she possibly can. You're treating her like a prostitute. Your marriage isn't in danger of failing, it has already failed miserably. And you have the gall to blame it on HER, and on her refusal to perform oral sex on you.

 

[Weasel7711]

@rppearso: So you don't see *any* contradiction in stating that "test driving" is not necessary, but on the other hand telling us of how your marriage nearly failed because of sex issues?
Ah, yes, and divorces are mostly caused by those worthless women not doing what you want, if it's not the men beating them....sure. You also never considered that *you* might have to submit to *her* and respect *her* wishes?

Btw: Good job in forcing your wife into doing something she obviously doesn't like

QFT

While submission should be there sexually YOU are also called to love your wife like Christ loves the church and gave himself up for her, thus dying to your own desires. While lack of sex can lead to a greater temptation for porn, etc, it is not the CAUSE of it and only YOU are responsible for your porn/adultery issues.;

 

[rppearso]

Either my english skills are lacking (and its my native language) or some people on here need to get a clue, I guess my writing skills are really as bad as people say they are, I usually think way faster than I can type or write so I leave things out, I absolutly agree the husband must submit to his wife as well, and I have made huge efforts to give my wife what she needs and she has done the same. I have noticed there are some real pieces of work on this forum and just can not resist the urge to flame. I disagree with the notion that submiting to your wife means accepting a sexually unsatisfying life no where in the bible does it say that, it says do not deny one and other sexually lest you be tempted by the devil, if thats for you thats fine but dont call me a troll over it.

"You're treating her like a prostitute. Your marriage isn't in danger of failing, it has already failed miserably. And you have the gall to blame it on HER, and on her refusal to perform oral sex on you. " Spoken like a true prude, I feel sorry for your spouse, I notice you dont indicate your gender.

"While lack of sex can lead to a greater temptation for porn, etc, it is not the CAUSE of it and only YOU are responsible for your porn/adultery issues.;"

I take serious issue with this because sexual refusal is sin, and the refusing spouse is the direct result of the negitive outcome, the man is also fully responsible but the woman is by no means absolved from any responsibility, you might want to read through 1 cor again before you make such statements.

It would be nice if we could stop with the childish flames, and if you want to say something flambouant you better back it up with something more than your opinion. It has become increasingly difficult to find decent intellectual forums where people debate instead of making off hand remarks, because you'll be darned if your going to give BJ to make your husband happy and any man that expects it is "fill in negitive conotation".

I really just need to go back to studying for my chemical PE (professional engineering) exam which I do alot of but could do more if I were not on here, even though 80% of people on most forums are idiots I am drawn in almost like a sick illness. Peoples own lazyness to enlightent themselves/read and study leads to there own degradation in quality of life becasue they believe something that is not ture and feel compeled

 

[rppearso]

How is it a sin to refuse to have sex with somebody, but not a sin to ask somebody to ignore their needs in favor of yours?

I don't get why the husband's need to have sex universally trumps the wife's need to not have sex... Why isn't this post about how you controlled your physical and sexual urges to accomidate your wife, as opposed to your wife engaging in activities she doesn't want to accomidate your needs?

And I agree... If somebody cheats, the responsibility on that is on the cheater. The cheater makes the choice to go outside of the marriage, the person being cheated on doesn't make the cheater go outside of the marriage. To claim otherwise, well, that's a total lack of accountability for actions, and it borders on mental abuse.

What would you do if your husband stopped all sexual activity with you, I know thats an extreme case, would you simply say oh thats ok I will just snap my fingers and not have a sex drive anymore or would you soon grow tired of not having basic needs met and divorce. I agree you should not cheat just get divorced. So I guess in a way I was wrong, cheating would not be warranted but a divorce would be. So if one spouse decided to stop sexual activity the other would have a right to divorce because that would be abandonment. One thing I have noticed is that some christians like to pick and choose what to apply out of the bible and if they dont like something they simply ignore it, Gods plan for his people is to have happy lives, if you are doing what you are suppost to and your life is miserable for a long period of time you might need to pull the weeds out of your life. If this discussion becomes circular im going to have to take a pill for my illness (the sickness of continually posting into a circular argument instead of doing something else) and find another thread. Tropical winds you are kinda a hypocrite, you speak of "test driving" your spouse and then make statements such as "Why isn't this post about how you controlled your physical and sexual urges to accomidate your wife, as opposed to your wife engaging in activities she doesn't want to accomidate your needs?" God wants us to have fullfilling sex lives and if your wife (or husband) is being a prude it is ungodly and I consider it to be abandonment which is cause for divorce, but you are right its not an excuse for cheating.

 

[BellaSong]

rppearso, you probably don't care about my opinion, but I think that the way that your attitude toward sex is discusting. I am definitely no prude and I certainly don't have a low sex drive, but if your wife doesn't want to engage intimately, that shows that there is much more wrong with your relationship than just the sex. For example, your lack of respect toward her. If she isn't comfortable with a particular sexual act, you should not force it on her. Maybe if she were not feeling pressured to do things she didn't like, she would want to be intimate more.

 

[BellaSong]

By the way, yes I think that sex during the engagement is still fornication.

 

[Weasel7711]

If she isn't comfortable with a particular sexual act, you should not force it on her. Maybe if she were not feeling pressured to do things she didn't like, she would want to be intimate more.

Bang there it is.

Rim is NOT a legitimate sexual need. Its a perversion which may have stemmed from your addiction to pornography. Are you still dealing with that or have you gotten victory over it?

 

[BellaSong]

Bang there it is.

Rim is NOT a legitimate sexual need. Its a perversion which may have stemmed from your addiction to pornography. Are you still dealing with that or have you gotten victory over it?

Maybe this is a dumb and innapropriate question, but what is rim?

 

[ClausJohn]

If i'm not completely mistaken the oral pleasuring of someone's anus.

@Weasel7711: While i do not believe that there is a "legitimate sexual need" at all, please explain why this act isn't one and others are. Because you think it's disgusting?

 

[BellaSong]

I'm going to be honest, I think that is really disgusting... and unsanitary...

 

[Weasel7711]

If i'm not completely mistaken the oral pleasuring of someone's anus.

@Weasel7711: While i do not believe that there is a "legitimate sexual need" at all, please explain why this act isn't one and others are. Because you think it's disgusting?

Disgusting is my opinion. Unhealthy is a fact. The anus is a breeding ground for all sorts of bacteria and the tongue was never designed to travel to that region. From what I know about oral from a medical standpoint it is safe, as long as the person doesn't have diseases, but that goes with just about any sexual act.