If you're a Christian and pro-choice, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

[durangodawood]

Either human life begins at conception or it doesn't begin until you're fully born. If it doesn't begin until your fully out of the birth canal then this would mean it's moral to abort a baby while it's coming out of the birth canal. Would you find that to be moral? If not then how are you going to determine when human life becomes human life?

You say that. But that doesnt make it so.
Seems to me that a person emerges during some grey area of time in the middle of pregnancy.

 

[stevevw]

There is no other ethical dilemma that can quite be compared to pregnancy and abortion. It is even a legally murky area. Abortion is legal, yet if you kill a pregnant woman you can be charged for two murders. Is it okay to kill a life as long as it is symbiotic and can't survive outside of the womb? However, no baby can survive out of the womb without adult care anyway. Then you have further debates as to when abortion is okay or not okay- and what makes a person a person in the first place. Is it when someone has their full capacity to reason? If so, is a child not legally a person? Then there is the whole addition of rape, incest, and the mother's life being in danger to complicate things. There's all sorts of murky areas to this.

It's life, but it is symbiotic life. It is life that has the potential for becoming human. I believe that once a certain stage of development passes, it is undoubtedly murder. Viewed in this context- rape, incest, and the mother's life being endangered seem to be the most reasonable parameters- as while abortion is never ideal, it can be used if necessary.

That said, I do hold double standards when it comes to abortion. I think life is sacred, and would personally only have an abortion if my life was in danger, and it was recommended to me by my doctor (and even then I'd get a second opinion, talk to my priest and husband, and engage in some serious prayer before making the decision). If I were raped and became pregnant, I would keep the child. I also have the expectation that no Christian would choose abortion unless there were extremely serious issues to consider (and deciding you just don't want a child after choosing to have sex isn't one of these serious concerns), as their views on the sanctity of life should also exist.

I just can't see holding non-believers and/or people not of my faith to the same standards to which I hold myself and I don't think I should be the one calling the shots for others. This is why I view abortion as a necessary evil, and wish there was more education out there to discourage it, educate people on preventing (when possible) unplanned pregnancies so they don't have a difficult choice to make, and provide more services to help and support women and mothers, et cetera. I think women who've had abortions experience difficulties (even if brought on by their own actions), and need our compassion, not our demonization so they can heal. Even though I don't hold others to my standards, I think other people should never see abortion as a good thing.

I absolutely think there should be a focus on teaching responsibility before it ever gets to the point of someone even considering abortion as an option. It's not an ideal option and should be viewed accordingly. If some are using abortion as their only means of birth control, then they need an intervention, in my opinion.

Very well said and I completely agree. I am with you in regards to the sentiment and anguish you have shown on this topic. Thanks for the heartfelt honesty. You have covered all of the important points and the difficulties to do with abortion and presented a very balanced view.

 

[PapaZoom]

Is there biblical evidence that the soul is created only at the moment of conception?

Not of which I'm aware. Like many things in the Bible, we make inferences based on consistencies throughout the various texts. There are mixed views on the idea of when the soul comes into existence. And one must remember that the Bible is filled with poetic phrases and are not meant to be taken literally. The truth being communicated is transmitted via literary devices known to the world at that time.

 

[Chriliman]

Is there biblical evidence that the soul is created only at the moment of conception?

The Bible points to the thought that God knows us even before He formed us in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This would not just be the case for Jeremiah, but all people appointed by God. If you exist, then God has a purpose for you. This is what the Bible alludes to and it does make sense to me at least.

 

[PapaZoom]

Possible? I suppose. Sounds very unlikely though, as the newly fertilized egg doesnt resemble anything we normally call a "person".

The question is best answered by each person according to her conscience.

The person I am today wouldn't exist if I had been killed moments after I was conceived. Today if someone kills me it's murder. If I had been killed a day before today, still murder. If you go back in my life one day at a time and ask if it's ok to kill me, you'd say no. Then at the moment I am born asking the same question will likely get a no. Then keep going back one day at a time. When is it ok to kill me on one day, but the very next it is not? When is that exact point in my development that people would accept that killing me is wrong?

If you say at the moment of conception it's ok, then what about the day after? And then the day after that? Keep going day after day and then tell me when you would have that cut off point (for legally killing me) and when you would make it illegal.

This idea of personhood is not exact. And who came up with this idea in the first place? It can't be scientifically determined. It's rather arbitrary and different people place the existence of personhood at different times in development. What makes a newborn a person and an 8 month old fetus not? You cannot answer that question with certainty. You have to make an educated guess.

I on the other hand don't have the problem you have. I know exactly when a new human being comes into existence: conception. It's that simple. And it's a scientific fact. And the reason that the pro-choice advocates went to the personhood argument is they know (except for the uninformed) that abortion always kills a human being. Not a potential human being - a full fledged member of the society of human beings (but without the rights of "persons.")

I will be challenged on this most likely but I know that I am right because I know the science of it. It's not an opinion I'm saying but a fact.

Life itself actually does not begin at conception because life is continuous. But that is not what I am saying. I'm not even talking about human life. I'm talking only about one thing: What is the unborn? They are human beings at particular points in their development. Points we all passed through in our journey is this life. I was a zygote as were you. And I was just as much a human being then as I am now. The personhood argument wants to distract from this simple fact.

 

[SteveB28]

Sure. It's just that intentionally allowing innocent human life to die is wrong and this should be a moral belief that everyone should hold.

When you start mandating people's values, you are no longer talking about morality. You are asking for obedience.

And I believe human life begins at conception, otherwise judging when it becomes human life is impossible to definitively determine.

Not a question of when life begins. It's a question of the value that one places on living things at various stages or in various forms. You are most welcome to assess YOUR values of living things as you see fit.

As am I.

 

[durangodawood]

The person I am today wouldn't exist if I had been killed moments after I was conceived. Today if someone kills me it's murder. If I had been killed a day before today, still murder. If you go back in my life one day at a time and ask if it's ok to kill me, you'd say no. Then at the moment I am born asking the same question will likely get a no. Then keep going back one day at a time. When is it ok to kill me on one day, but the very next it is not? When is that exact point in my development that people would accept that killing me is wrong?

If you say at the moment of conception it's ok, then what about the day after? And then the day after that? Keep going day after day and then tell me when you would have that cut off point (for legally killing me) and when you would make it illegal.

This idea of personhood is not exact. And who came up with this idea in the first place? It can't be scientifically determined. It's rather arbitrary and different people place the existence of personhood at different times in development. What makes a newborn a person and an 8 month old fetus not? You cannot answer that question with certainty. You have to make an educated guess.

I on the other hand don't have the problem you have. I know exactly when a new human being comes into existence: conception. It's that simple. And it's a scientific fact. And the reason that the pro-choice advocates went to the personhood argument is they know (except for the uninformed) that abortion always kills a human being. Not a potential human being - a full fledged member of the society of human beings (but without the rights of "persons.")

I will be challenged on this most likely but I know that I am right because I know the science of it. It's not an opinion I'm saying but a fact.

Life itself actually does not begin at conception because life is continuous. But that is not what I am saying. I'm not even talking about human life. I'm talking only about one thing: What is the unborn? They are human beings at particular points in their development. Points we all passed through in our journey is this life. I was a zygote as were you. And I was just as much a human being then as I am now. The personhood argument wants to distract from this simple fact.

If it was as clear as all that, then people of good conscience would all agree. But they dont.

 

[durangodawood]

You saying otherwise doesn't change facts either.

Did I make some specific claim that you are referring to?

 

[KWCrazy]

Abortion/miscarriage is NOT infanticide.
Were it so, there would be laws preventing it.

Let's see. Is an infant killed? Then it's infanticide.
Nothing personal, but I'm going to rank the second part of your comment among the most incredible foolish argument ever. It's allowed by law; like slavery was. That means that it's perfectly okay. So when a state outlaws abortions you won't try to get the courts to overturn it, because once the law is passed it's murder?

 

[PapaZoom]

He has an opinion. I have an opinion. That's how it works on discussion boards, you know.

Yes but this thread is specifically about Christians who are pro choice and my claim that they are on the wrong side of the issue. You're an atheist so I understand why you might be pro choice. However, not only am I saying that ALL Christians should be prolife (against abortion) but that if they are not fully prolife, they are in error. I'll go even further, if a Christian is pro choice, they are approving of evil. They are in sin over this issue.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Isaiah 5:20Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Christians defending abortion rights in any measure ought to do so from a biblical perspective. Perhaps I'm wrong. They should show me using a biblical defense.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes but this thread is specifically about Christians who are pro choice and my claim that they are on the wrong side of the issue. You're an atheist so I understand why you might be pro choice. However, not only am I saying that ALL Christians should be prolife (against abortion) but that if they are not fully prolife, they are in error. I'll go even further, if a Christian is pro choice, they are approving of evil. They are in sin over this issue.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Isaiah 5:20Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.
Christians defending abortion rights in any measure ought to do so from a biblical perspective. Perhaps I'm wrong. They should show me using a biblical defense.

Amen Brother...you nailed it.....not that an atheist would agree.

 

[PapaZoom]

Amen Brother...you nailed it.....not that an atheist would agree.

There are other threads where I would approach the discussion differently. To an atheist or simply a non Christian, I would appeal to other arguments. But to Christians I can also appeal to what they profess:faith in Christ. This faith is in Jesus who subjected his body to a horrible beating and death that we may have life. He didn't plead for his "bodily rights" or other autonomy nonsense. He yielded. For us. He died that we might have life and yet there are some here that claim His name and yet think a "Christian" (and of course a non believer as well) woman should have the "right" to kill her unwanted child. Because after all, it's her body. I've got news for all of us. It's not your body. It's the Lord's. That biblical.

 

[SteveB28]

Yes but this thread is specifically about Christians who are pro choice and my claim that they are on the wrong side of the issue.

So what? If you can voice an opinion about what Christians should do and think, so can I ! Guess what, I don't have any young children of my own any more, but I still have some opinions about how children should be raised and educated. I've never been in the armed services, yet I have some opinions about national defence. I am not religiously minded, but I can still voice an opinion about the values and actions of those who are!

 

[PapaZoom]

So what? If you can voice an opinion about what Christians should do and think, so can I ! Guess what, I don't have any young children of my own any more, but I still have some opinions about how children should be raised and educated. I've never been in the armed services, yet I have some opinions about national defence. I am not religiously minded, but I can still voice an opinion about the values and actions of those who are!

I know and I actually appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I was just clarifying the purpose of this particular thread. It's important to hear opposing views because without a clash of ideas, progress and understanding are hampered.

 

[Belk]

The Bible points to the thought that God knows us even before He formed us in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

This would not just be the case for Jeremiah, but all people appointed by God. If you exist, then God has a purpose for you. This is what the Bible alludes to and it does make sense to me at least.

I thought God existed "Outside of time" and saw the entirety of the universe "front to back"? If so then knowing someone before they were formed in the womb is a simple feat since he knows who they are after they are formed and it is one and the same to him.

 

[Chriliman]

I thought God existed "Outside of time" and saw the entirety of the universe "front to back"? If so then knowing someone before they were formed in the womb is a simple feat since he knows who they are after they are formed and it is one and the same to him.

I agree.

 

[Belk]

I agree.

Then you understand that this would say nothing against abortion since that person would not exist?

 

[SteveB28]

I know and I actually appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I was just clarifying the purpose of this particular thread. It's important to hear opposing views because without a clash of ideas, progress and understanding are hampered.

Thank you. That is very reasonable.

 

[Chriliman]

Then you understand that this would say nothing against abortion since that person would not exist?

What?

If God begins to form a person in the womb then killing that person while there in the womb would be considered murder according to God because he already knew that person and he will enact justice for that person in the only way He can.

 

[SteveB28]

What?

If God begins to form a person in the womb then killing that person while there in the womb would be considered murder according to God because he already knew that person and he will enact justice for that person in the only way He can.

You missed his point. Words such as "begin", "then", "while", "already knew", "will" are all time based. If your assertion is that your God exists outside of any time frame, then these statements are meaningless. The existence of an individual as a zygote, foetus, infant, child or adult would be all contemporaneous. So their death would be contemporaneous with their life as well.