If you were creator

[dgiharris]

I'm disappointed by most of the replies to this question as I think a lot of us haven't truly thought about the implications of a universe devoid of pain and suffering.

Without war there is no peace. Without pain there is no pleasure. I would challenge you to think of any emotion or state of being that does NOT have an opposite.

The reason we love life is because of death. The reason we love light is because of darkness.

To reduce the amount of darkness is in effect reducing the amount we love the light.

And the amount of influence you directly assert over your thinking beings is directly proportional to the amount of free will you deprive them of. What rational thinking being would ever commit action XYZ if he knew that XYZ summoned a vengeful god or angel that would smite him.

in fact, if your universe allowed for direct intervention by supernatural forces then you would inadvertently create a universe of theocratic sorcery. Your thinking beings would figure out an entire system that manipulated you into action.

 

[Percivale]

H G Wells The Time Machine pictured a world without pain or hardship. Even without the Morlocks that world didn't seem too appealing. The necessity for struggle seems to me an important part of the depth of meaning to life. Life is so complex, and so many factors go into making it excellent, that I doubt any of us can understanding it fully.
Another thing that hasn't been addressed much is the time dimension. What makes for the best life may be very different if you see life as a steady state, or as one with a progression through different periods, with each laying the foundation for the next.

 

[Moral Orel]

I'm disappointed by most of the replies to this question as I think a lot of us haven't truly thought about the implications of a universe devoid of pain and suffering.

Without war there is no peace. Without pain there is no pleasure. I would challenge you to think of any emotion or state of being that does NOT have an opposite.

The reason we love life is because of death. The reason we love light is because of darkness.

To reduce the amount of darkness is in effect reducing the amount we love the light.

Heaven sounds terrible...

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

What would your ideal possible world be? If you could create a universe, or choose one to live in, which would you think best?
For instance, should it have intelligent life, if so mortal or immortal, or some of each?
How should it begin and end, how long of a timespan between?
How easy should life be, what challenges and goals should be available?
What kind of natural world, how complex, how changeable?

Or to make it easier, you could just say what you would change about our world if you could.

It would be just as God created it in Adam and Eves time , except without sin entering the world. God made everything to be perfect and last forever initially . Our world and lives were meant to be eternal without end and we were never meant to die from illnesses and accidents . But since this world and life has been poisoned with the effects from sin, it is THIS world and life that now becomes the best method for reaching eternity with God because God provided a way for all of humanity to be restored to him in personal relationship : By sending Christ his Son to redeem us .

 

[TheyCallMeDave]

Heaven sounds terrible...

You don't want to miss out on it . What God has in store for those who love him is unimaginably wonderful and good. And its not about playing a harp on a big fluffy cloud either

 

[Moral Orel]

You don't want to miss out on it . What God has in store for those who love him is unimaginably wonderful and good. And its not about playing a harp on a big fluffy cloud either

My comment was a sarcastic comment towards someone else saying that good isn't good without bad.

 

[Moral Orel]

It would be just as God created it in Adam and Eves time , except without sin entering the world.

So what would you do different? Not put that cursed tree there to begin with?

 

[Percivale]

My comment was a sarcastic comment towards someone else saying that good isn't good without bad.

I think dgiharris went too far, but there's some truth in what he said. hard times make the good times better, and such. Just where the ideal balance is I don't know, nor do any of us. It does seem that evil would still have its function of highlighting the good even after the evil is eliminated, as long as it is remembers, which would mean that it could have a purpose now but no longer be needed for an ideal heaven later. I think there will still be challenges, or things that are difficult to do, in heaven, though not evil.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm disappointed by most of the replies to this question as I think a lot of us haven't truly thought about the implications of a universe devoid of pain and suffering.

Without war there is no peace. Without pain there is no pleasure. I would challenge you to think of any emotion or state of being that does NOT have an opposite.

The reason we love life is because of death. The reason we love light is because of darkness.

To reduce the amount of darkness is in effect reducing the amount we love the light.

If that were true, those who suffer lots of hardships would appreciate the good times more than those who suffer few hardships. A quick look at the real world and you will see that just isn't the case.

Ken

 

[ScottA]

What would your ideal possible world be? If you could create a universe, or choose one to live in, which would you think best?
For instance, should it have intelligent life, if so mortal or immortal, or some of each?
How should it begin and end, how long of a timespan between?
How easy should life be, what challenges and goals should be available?
What kind of natural world, how complex, how changeable?

Or to make it easier, you could just say what you would change about our world if you could.

A world like High School. Some good times, some bad, but when it's over...I never want to go back!

...Wait...that's just like this world!

 

[Chicken Little]

I'm disappointed by most of the replies to this question as I think a lot of us haven't truly thought about the implications of a universe devoid of pain and suffering.

Without war there is no peace. Without pain there is no pleasure. I would challenge you to think of any emotion or state of being that does NOT have an opposite.

The reason we love life is because of death. The reason we love light is because of darkness.

To reduce the amount of darkness is in effect reducing the amount we love the light.

And the amount of influence you directly assert over your thinking beings is directly proportional to the amount of free will you deprive them of. What rational thinking being would ever commit action XYZ if he knew that XYZ summoned a vengeful god or angel that would smite him.

in fact, if your universe allowed for direct intervention by supernatural forces then you would inadvertently create a universe of theocratic sorcery. Your thinking beings would figure out an entire system that manipulated you into action.

NO that is not true of all things.
most of the people in this world are shallow and whiney and hollow and empty and they don't want what it cost to change..

so I too will enjoy the day I don't have to choose the hard way on purpose.
thank God he has trees of life and wells/springs of wisdom( see book of enoch)(and not knowledge ) for when we will need them. for all of us that don't really want to do it by pain and suffering anymore.
because we really don't need too.
we never needed too.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I think this is a kind of cool question, but I don't know that I have the wisdom to really build my own world. Lets look at God's model as an example.

a) His creature are free to choose what they do, with in limits
b) A person can do both good and evil
c) We can sin to a level that we are seen as evil enough for destruction in hell

A question, why is there suffering in God's model? Who knows.

Lets try a suffering less model.

a) We have free will
b) ok ... so we have free will ... but how do we express this ... how should our bodies be fashioned to prevent harm ... if we have a hand we might strike some one .... so we can have no nervous system ... we can only feel positive emotions even when hit .... our bodies would have to be indestructible ....
c) I guess we could still choose to love God, for what he had given us

Maybe God Himself has suffered in the past, and wants a creation that can relate to suffering? Who knows.... any way all too deep for me ... I just trust that God made us the way he did for a reason ... he wants a creation that can relate to Him, on the level he chooses.

 

[Percivale]

I think this is a kind of cool question, but I don't know that I have the wisdom to really build my own world. Lets look at God's model as an example.

a) His creature are free to choose what they do, with in limits
b) A person can do both good and evil
c) We can sin to a level that we are seen as evil enough for destruction in hell

A question, why is there suffering in God's model? Who knows.

Lets try a suffering less model.

a) We have free will
b) ok ... so we have free will ... but how do we express this ... how should our bodies be fashioned to prevent harm ... if we have a hand we might strike some one .... so we can have no nervous system ... we can only feel positive emotions even when hit .... our bodies would have to be indestructible ....
c) I guess we could still choose to love God, for what he had given us

Maybe God Himself has suffered in the past, and wants a creation that can relate to suffering? Who knows.... any way all too deep for me ... I just trust that God made us the way he did for a reason ... he wants a creation that can relate to Him, on the level he chooses.

Physical suffering would be easy to avoid; just make everybody Superman--indestructible. That was God's plan A it seems; the angels are like that. But then Satan fell, and God didn't send him to confinement and rehab or unmake him. Why not is the biggest question of the universe I'd think. Perhaps taking away a being's freedom like that goes against God's principles, or maybe God wanted to give the universe a huge object lesson as to why Satan was making a mistake rebelling, and give everybody competition and a place in an epic struggle.

 

[Chicken Little]

Physical suffering would be easy to avoid; just make everybody Superman--indestructible. . But then Satan fell, and God didn't send him to confinement and rehab or unmake him. Why not is the biggest question of the universe I'd think. Perhaps taking away a being's freedom like that goes against God's principles, or maybe God wanted to give the universe a huge object lesson as to why Satan was making a mistake rebelling, and give everybody competition and a place in an epic struggle.

I Love most of this truely ....... BUT....


what if the suffering isn't about him?


but about unity with each other?

I mean having to learn though suffering is such a narcissistic act isn't it?
how does such a narcissistic act get us to know him better?

I think that kind of narcissistic suffering only got him to know us and the worst part of us better . not the other way around..


I think the question the Father is asking us is , If we can one day prove and desire to be one without narcissism ( to step out of your personal pain already) that is the lessons of forgiveness he demands we do learn , without that pure forgiveness there is no salvation for anyone . he is our example .
So the question of salvation is can we learn without needing and demanding any suffering to maintain our self focus.. and to even try not causing real suffering and thus make others maintain their self focus ( but narcissism will be narcissism ) and the only way through narcissism is a forgiveness by a WE , not patronizing by a ME .
a Me just breeds more narcissistic suspicion.

Can we learn to learn from him and still love and still grow and still learn with out needing pain and trauma and drama and that kind of narcissistic focus on ourselves in order to relate to him and each other. because I know that kind of narcissistic focus on our selves makes it impossible to related to him or anyone else ever .

Adam and EVE chose for us , and that mankind only wanted to learn though his narcissistic self focus and belly button analyzing
and I suspect we have to overcome that kind of focus on
"ME" with a unity that doesn't need to be self involved to learn and or to grow.

but to become the un-narcissistic
"we" that is unfocused on ourselves and only focused on others that was who we were created to be .
only in an unfocused on Me .. can we understand him fully and we will then understand who he is . and why he suffered in order that we all can become a WE again..
but it seems the only way to overcome "Me" is through the pain "ME" created , to fully understand our own narcissism ... not our own Self, then through his fire to become a " WE " not running from what we brought into the world but overcoming it by stepping out of "me" in the midst of the pain and forgive and focus on the promises of he made of being a "WE" .


so maybe there is a repentance that leads to HIS life and to him and his focus on WE to learn in life ...

he did not created ADAM a "ME ", Adam was a WE always ..


or

there is a repentance unto to death and more narcissistic focus on "me" to learn what "me" thinks it wants now anyway .

Now both of these ME's and the WE's will call themselves and think they are "Christians" but not all of these will be saved . and I can't now tell who is and who isn't overcoming the " me" in themselves . because they will all look the same in the process . only the eventual fruit is going to be different.

 

[paulm50]

If I were a creator. I wouldn't create a world that keeps exploding, moving, changing weather patterns, vulnerable to Asteroids, and anything else designed to kill us.

If I were a god and wanted all the people to listen to me. I would pick the strongest Empire of the time to convert, I wouldn't allow other people to be born who would preach in opposition to me.

And I wouldn't need men to do my work for me.

 

[Colter]

What would your ideal possible world be? If you could create a universe, or choose one to live in, which would you think best?
For instance, should it have intelligent life, if so mortal or immortal, or some of each?
How should it begin and end, how long of a timespan between?
How easy should life be, what challenges and goals should be available?
What kind of natural world, how complex, how changeable?

Or to make it easier, you could just say what you would change about our world if you could.

My ideal God and his creation would be the God and the narrative of his creation that I found in the Urantia Book. God as he already is and the universe as it is.

So much of unbelief is either man objecting to the God that has designed creation as it is, or man objecting to the way other men have created a deity in their own image within scripture that they claim was written by God.

 

[Colter]

In my universe, I would offer endless opportunities for growth, for all life. Rebirth and the cause & effect of karma would be the rule to provide such opportunities in a just manner. Minimum life span would be dependent on the number of lessons needed to be learned to reach "the next level". The physical self would be mortal, while the spiritual self would be immortal, to allow the individual consciousness to experience varying life paths commensurate to their personal need for self growth. The ultimate goal in life would be to transcend and graduate beyond the need for the physical self and its lessons, to achieve union with the Uncreated. The natural physical world is only the training ground which points to such a goal.

In essence, this is the universe I perceive we are living in now.

This is pretty close to the teachings of the Urantia Book, that's why I like it because it makes more sense than the traditional vague concepts of an afterlife of sloth.

 

[Percivale]

If I were a creator. I wouldn't create a world that keeps exploding, moving, changing weather patterns, vulnerable to Asteroids, and anything else designed to kill us.

If I were a god and wanted all the people to listen to me. I would pick the strongest Empire of the time to convert, I wouldn't allow other people to be born who would preach in opposition to me.

And I wouldn't need men to do my work for me.

Sounds like you'd be a fundamentalist's sort of god. I'm guessing you haven't had a very broad experience of religion, or you'd be more aware of less fundamentalist versions of it, and why they are appealing.

 

[Chriliman]

I'm disappointed by most of the replies to this question as I think a lot of us haven't truly thought about the implications of a universe devoid of pain and suffering.

Without war there is no peace. Without pain there is no pleasure. I would challenge you to think of any emotion or state of being that does NOT have an opposite.

The reason we love life is because of death. The reason we love light is because of darkness.

To reduce the amount of darkness is in effect reducing the amount we love the light.

And the amount of influence you directly assert over your thinking beings is directly proportional to the amount of free will you deprive them of. What rational thinking being would ever commit action XYZ if he knew that XYZ summoned a vengeful god or angel that would smite him.

in fact, if your universe allowed for direct intervention by supernatural forces then you would inadvertently create a universe of theocratic sorcery. Your thinking beings would figure out an entire system that manipulated you into action.

Eternal pain and suffering means eternal life and happiness would be possible and in fact this is the only answer to the question of eternity. You can't have one without the other.

 

[Ken-1122]

Eternal pain and suffering means eternal life and happiness would be possible and in fact this is the only answer to the question of eternity. You can't have one without the other.

So does this mean there will be eternal pain and suffering in Heaven?

Ken