If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Bob S]

Exodus 16 is before the giving of the law at Sinai where the Sabbath was an issue for the Lord.



Question??? What laws is this statement referring to, "keep my commandments and my laws?" as it was said by the Lord prior to the ten commandments being given.

Tell me what makes any difference whether the command was given to observe Sabbath before Sinai or after. The law concerning Sabbath was given to the promised people, Israel. There is no indication that God had the children of Israel stop and observe Sabbath before going through the Red Sea.

What does all this have to do with the fact that no other nation on Earth has ever been commanded to observe Sabbath?

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

 

[Bob S]

There are two types of Sabbaths in the Bible, the weekly Sabbath established at creation and the special Sabbaths called feast days tied to the earthly sanctuary. The sanctuary Sabbaths, feast days, were a shadow of the things to come which were all fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why at the death of Christ on the cross the veil was rent signifying that the earthly Sanctuary was no longer a pathway for the forgiving of sin as Christ the Lamb of GOD had offered himself for the remission of sin for all mankind.

Feast days are mentioned in Col2 and according to you Paul stuttered and mentioned the same events twice. That thought does not hold water friend. Paul didn't mention feast days twice. He wrote feast days and Sabbath. the weekly Sabbath along with the feast day Sabbaths are shadows. Why would you want to worship a shadow when we have the real rest, Jesus Christ?

Those shadow Sabbaths were completed in Christ the weekly Sabbath is still with us. Why else would the RCC church put forth these statement.

Who taught you these things? Whoever did is trying to make Paul's statement fit an agenda.

Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Why would SDAs want to use the beast power's statements to try to prove that the Sabbath is binding on Christians.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

The early church, long before history records anything about the Catholic church, was observing Sunday, but the fact is there is no law in the New Testament concerning keeping any day.

The 10 commandments were temporary laws. Temporary because the old covenant was broken and ended at the Cross where the new covenant was ratified by Jesus blood.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus founded a Church. He appointed its leaders and He set up a line of succession for the leaders of His Church. He gave them His own authority to make disciples for Him and to preach to these disciples His gospel. Matthew 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 2 Timothy 4:2, 2 Timothy 2:2, Ephesians 4:10-12, Revelation 2:2

You have made yourself the leader of your own "church" based upon your own interpretations of the writings/Scriptures of His leaders and their successors. God did not give you the authority to do this. You have assumed it for yourself.

The Holy Spirit guides the leaders of His Church into all truth. He never made this promise to any or all individuals who read the Scriptures (which were written by the leaders of His Church as supplements to their oral teachings).

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. rsv​

All false systems claim that their church is the one true church.

I know who the leader of my Church is. It is not me and it is not Peter.

It is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat_21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

Mat_21:44 And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him."


Salvation is simple...

Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


.

 

[bugkiller]

Exodus 16 is before the giving of the law at Sinai where the Sabbath was an issue for the Lord.


Exodus 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.
2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:
3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.
4 Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God.
16 This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto theLord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Question??? What laws is this statement referring to, "keep my commandments and my laws?" as it was said by the Lord prior to the ten commandments being given.

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

You think the questioned commandments and laws mean the 10 Cs. The problem is the same author (Moses) says no in Deut 5:1-3.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Salvation is a life-long process.

Not according to Scripture. Take Jn 3:16 for instance. What about Jn 5:24? What about Rom 10:9-10 or Acts 16:31?

A person becomes spiritually regenerated--born again when he first believes and is baptized.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. rsv​

Then you quote the above disproving your opening statement.​

A saved person will continually be tested until he dies to see if he will remain faithful/endure to the end.

Yes and Amen!!!!! But this has nothing to do with becoming saved/redeemed.

Matthew 14:1-9, 18-23
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.” ....
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” rsv​

Does not prove nor back up your opening statement.

Mark 13:10-13
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; 13 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv

​

A person who continues in the faith by obeying the gospel/commandments of Jesus Christ and by doing the will of God the Father until his death will then be approved to enter into eternal life and he will not come into condemnation to hell. If a person is still saved/faithful at the time of his death, he will be approved to enter/inherit eternal life.

This is nothing but promoting salvation by works. The reward of works is death - Rom 6:23.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you (Israelites) and given to a nation (Greeks) producing the fruits of it.”​

So, your point is...

Matthew 7:20-23
Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Here is proof not even good works will secure eternal life (salvation).​

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv​

This is about the early church and is past. I have no doubt that some even these days are in jail and are killed directly related to their faith in Jesus.

bugkiller​

 

[Original Happy Camper]

The Catholic Church made the commandment because the early church fathers taught that Jesus commanded them to worship on the first day of the week, and that is why the NT factually reports that the apostles and disciples were worshiping on the first day of the week.

Then why would you church publish in a catechism "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174 "????

Your statement is not supported in scripture.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

You think the questioned commandments and laws mean the 10 Cs. The problem is the same author (Moses) says no in Deut 5:1-3.

bugkiller

covenant

[kuhv-uh-nuh nt]
noun
1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.

So by definition the covenant is not the law it is a clause of the covenant.

Genesis 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

As you know the bow in the clouds is with us today so the covenant with Noah is still in effect today. EVERLASTING

The Covenant with Israel was the same Covenant that was given to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with the new clause added that they would be his people. This covenant was to according to the prophecy of Daniel (Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.) as the Israelites were in Canaan at the end of the prophecy.


Exodus 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

Versus 7 and 8 are an addendum to the original Covenant to give Canaan (Exodus 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers)

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Daniel was an Israelite) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Bob S]

covenant

[kuhv-uh-nuh nt]
noun
1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.

So by definition the covenant is not the law it is a clause of the covenant.

Genesis 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

As you know the bow in the clouds is with us today so the covenant with Noah is still in effect today. EVERLASTING

The Covenant with Israel was the same Covenant that was given to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with the new clause added that they would be his people. This covenant was to according to the prophecy of Daniel (Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.) as the Israelites were in Canaan at the end of the prophecy.


Exodus 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

Versus 7 and 8 are an addendum to the original Covenant to give Canaan (Exodus 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers)

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Daniel was an Israelite) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The Torah was the terms of the covenant. If you will then I will. If you do not then I will break the covenant. The covenant was broken multiple times by Israel until God could no longer tolerate Israel.

 

[Jan001]

Well I reckon then that we are all reprobates because we all continue to sin. I guess I should speak for myself. It seems that some of you, the way you use verses, you must believe you have overcome sinning.

I don't personally know any person here on earth who does not sin. However there are sins which do cause a person to be ineligible to inherit eternal life and there are sins which do not cause a person to be ineligible to inherit eternal life.


A Christian is required to do his best to stop sinning.

Luke 13:24
“Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. rsv​

A Christian who commits a sin that is not mortal and dies without repenting of his sin before he dies will still be approved to inherit eternal life.

A Christian who knowingly/willfully commits a mortal sin and does not repent of his mortal sin before he dies will absolutely not be approved to inherit eternal life.

1 John 5:15-18
And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. 16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 18 We know that any one born of God does not sin [he personally chooses to stop sinning], but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. rsv​

Examples of mortal sins:

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. rsv

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Ephesians 5:5
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. rsv

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. rsv

​

What should a Christian do if he does commit a mortal sin, but then he wants to re-establish his previous good standing with God?

1 John 1:9-10
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. rsv

Acts 26:19-20
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. rsv

Matthew 3:8
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, nkjv​

 

[Jan001]

Salvation is simple...

Act_2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'


Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Many people love to tell people how simple salvation can be gained. Many people are not aware of the Scripture verses which explain that a person must continue in the faith by obedience to God's commandments in order to continue to be saved.

Acts 14:21-23
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico′nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. rsv

Matthew 13:18-23
“Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
​

Many people are not aware of the Scripture verses which state the requirements one must fulfill while alive on earth in order to be approved to enter eternal life after death.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv

Luke 13:23-27
And some one said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the householder has risen up and shut the door, you will begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from; depart from me, all you workers of iniquity!’ rsv

​

A person does not believe in or on Jesus unless he obeys Jesus's commandments. Jesus is not the Lord of people who do not obey His commandments.

Please note that not every Christian who calls on the name of the Lord will be approved to inherit eternal life. Once a person dies, he has no chance to repent of his evil-doing.

There will be many OSAS believers in hell because they did not obey God's commandments and they did not repent of their sins before death. They did not believe it was necessary to obey God's commandments in order to be approved to enter/inherit eternal life and so they condemned themselves to hell by their own unrepentant evil-doing.

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. rsv

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

 

[Jan001]

Not according to Scripture. Take Jn 3:16 for instance. What about Jn 5:24? What about Rom 10:9-10 or Acts 16:31?

Jn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv​

A person is first saved when he repents of his sins and believes in God. But merely believing that there is a God does not continue to save him. Obedience to God's commandments is what continues to save him.

Rom 10:9-10
because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. rsv
​

A person is first saved when he repents of his sins and believes that God raised Jesus from the dead. But, mere lip service does not keep anyone saved. Obedience to God's commandments is what continues to save him.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” rsv​

When a person first believes that Jesus will save him and he repents of his sins, Jesus will save him. But, this salvation will not continue unless He obeys God's commandments.


Repenting, believing and becoming baptized is what first saves us. But, unless we continue to be saved through obedience to God's commandments, and are still saved by our obedience to God's commandments at the time of death, we will not be approved to enter/inherit eternal life. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv​

This is nothing but promoting salvation by works. The reward of works is death - Rom 6:23.

The works of the law of Moses save no one.

The works of the law of Jesus do continue to save us.

James 2:20-26
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. rsv​

So, your point is...Here is proof not even good works will secure eternal life (salvation).

​

My point is that the good works once done by a righteous Christian do not keep him saved when he later deliberately chooses to sin.

Concerning the spiritual life and spiritual death of a soul:

Ezekiel 33:11-20
Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” rsv

Hebrews 10:26-30
6 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 ,,,,,,,29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
​

A person who does not do good works will not be approved to inherit eternal life. You will know who Jesus' sheep are by their good works/fruits.

Matthew 7:19-24
Every tree (person) that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (of hell). 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; rsv

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


First Jesus saves us as His gift to us. We can do nothing to merit this gift of salvation.

However, to be approved to inherit/enter eternal life after we die, we must continue in our salvation until we die. We continue in our salvation by doing the good works that God prepared for us to do and by obeying His commandments until we die.

This is about the early church and is past. I have no doubt that some even these days are in jail and are killed directly related to their faith in Jesus.

This also applies to us today. If we deny God/Christ by doing evil works, we will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. nkjv

Mark 7:6
He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. nkjv

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one (Christian) does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Matthew 13:20-21
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. rsv



​

 

[Jan001]

Then why would you church publish in a catechism "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174 "????

Your statement is not supported in scripture.

We know that the Catholic Church's early leaders aka the original apostles did change the Saturday worship of God to the Sunday worship of God. This Sunday worship practice is recorded in the Scriptures and in the writings of the early church leaders. These early church leaders documented in their writings that Jesus commanded them to do this and their writings also explain why Jesus did this. This established Sunday worship practice was documented in Luke 10:16, 1 Corinthians 16:2, and Acts 20:7.

Rev. Stephen Keenan is correct in that the Scriptures do not state anything about the exact reason why the formal worship of God was changed from Saturday to Sunday.

But, it simply does not matter because we know that the NT Scriptures did not record everything that Jesus taught the apostles to do. The NT Scriptures are supplements to the oral preaching/teachings of the apostles and disciples. The NT Scriptures were never meant to replace the oral preaching/teachings of the apostles and disciples. Scripture alone/Sola Scriptura is not even Scriptural!

There is no command recorded by Jesus in the Scriptures which states that His apostles and disciples must write down all His teachings. In the mid-60s A.D., Jesus commanded John in a vision to write letters to the seven regional churches to warn them of their deficiencies in the faith and to warn these Christians of the impending destruction of Babylon/Jerusalem, its temple, and its people. Jesus had prophesied this destruction while He was on earth and He had warned His followers to flee the area as soon as they saw the Roman armies encamped around Jerusalem. Luke 21:20-24

Everything that Jesus commanded the apostles to teach His followers to do is not recorded in the NT Scriptures. Jesus did not ever command the apostles to write down all His teachings. Matthew 28:18-20

John 21:25
But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. rsv

1 Corinthians 11:2
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. rsv

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. rsv

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

​

Jesus founded a Church and appointed its leaders to speak for Him. Matthew 18:17, Matthew 16:17-19, Ephesians 2:19-21

Jesus did not command His apostles to write the NT Scriptures so why do so many people think the NT Scriptures are more important than the one and only Church He founded to teach His gospel? The Church came first. They wrote their own Scriptures as supplements to their own teachings/preaching. These writings were never intended to replace their oral teachings which they handed down through their successors.

Paul writes the following in a letter to one of his successor bishops who is named Timothy as a supplement to his oral teaching. This letter was never meant to replace what Paul had already taught/showed Timothy to do.

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv​

 

[BABerean2]

Many people love to tell people how simple salvation can be gained. Many people are not aware of the Scripture verses which explain that a person must continue in the faith by obedience to God's commandments in order to continue to be saved.

Acts 14:21-23
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Ico′nium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. 23 And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting, they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. rsv

You have just become a Judaiser by linking salvation to commandment keeping.

There is nothing wrong with the commandments.

There is something wrong with us.

We are commanded to remain in faith.

King David was an adulterer and a murderer, who should have been stoned under the Old covenant.

No. We are not lawless. However, you will never be able to keep the 10 commandments perfectly.

The Old Covenant is now "obsolete".

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


We are under the law of Christ.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

.

 

[Bob S]

Notice John doesn't have one word about the 10 commandments that so many Christians hold in high esteem. He tells us we are doing right if we love Jesus an love others as he commands. Why do we want to always take the long hard road when God offers us the simple plan of salvation through loving others as He loves us?.

I am sure God would have revealed through John all the things some believe we must do to earn salvation if it were true.

 

[BABerean2]

Notice John doesn't have one word about the 10 commandments that so many Christians hold in high esteem. He tells us we are doing right if we love Jesus an love others as he commands. Why do we want to always take the long hard road when God offers us the simple plan of salvation through loving others as He loves us?.

I am sure God would have revealed through John all the things some believe we must do to earn salvation if it were true.

Brother Bob,

I have come to understand in the last few months the battle between the Old Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. It has been going on for almost 2,000 years now. The Books of Galatians and Hebrews are about this battle.

It would be my guess that 98% of Christians today are both unaware of this battle and are part of churches who are agreeing with the Judaisers, in some respect.

Paul became so frustrated with the Judaisers, who wanted to hang onto the Old covenant, that in Galatians 5:12 he said he wished they would go ahead and castrate themselves.

After arguing with others on this thread I have now come to understand his frustration, and I am sure you feel the same way.

I still have people I love telling me that the Age of Grace will come to and end and then God will go back to the Old Covenant 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ. They must skip over Hebrews 8:13, which says the Old covenant is now "obsolete".

How many false doctrines have come from those attempting to keep a covenant that only Christ could keep?

I am finding it more difficult as time goes on not to tell these people that what they are claiming is not found in the Bible. It comes from the minds of men.

I have to wonder how many millions of souls might have been saved if they had simply been shown the glory of the New Covenant which makes the whole Bible a book about Christ.

Thank you for speaking the truth in love.

.

 

[bugkiller]

covenant

[kuhv-uh-nuh nt]
noun
1.
an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
2.
Law. an incidental clause in such an agreement.

So by definition the covenant is not the law it is a clause of the covenant.

Genesis 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

As you know the bow in the clouds is with us today so the covenant with Noah is still in effect today. EVERLASTING

This is a one way non conditional covenant. The covenant made with Israel is not. The covenant with Israel is conditional covenant based on performance of both parties.

The Covenant with Israel was the same Covenant that was given to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with the new clause added that they would be his people. This covenant was to according to the prophecy of Daniel (Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.) as the Israelites were in Canaan at the end of the prophecy.

Is Deut 5 in your Bible the same as the one on this site?

Exodus 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:
7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord.

Versus 7 and 8 are an addendum to the original Covenant to give Canaan (Exodus 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers)

Nope, Israel is//are physical descendants of Abraham included in his promise.

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people (Daniel was an Israelite) and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I've no idea how the above verse relates to the rest of your post.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

I may not do as I want, under the New Covenant.

I am under the Law of Christ.

Heb 8:6-10 = Christ spoke the TEN Commandments.
The NEW Covenant includes having the Jer 31:31-33 LAW of God "written on heart and mind".

As we all know by now.

You claim to accept those scriptures?

 

[bugkiller]

Jn 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. rsv​

A person is first saved when he repents of his sins and believes in God. But merely believing that there is a God does not continue to save him. Obedience to God's commandments is what continues to save him.

Rom 10:9-10
because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved. rsv
​

A person is first saved when he repents of his sins and believes that God raised Jesus from the dead. But, mere lip service does not keep anyone saved. Obedience to God's commandments is what continues to save him.

Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” rsv​

When a person first believes that Jesus will save him and he repents of his sins, Jesus will save him. But, this salvation will not continue unless He obeys God's commandments.


Repenting, believing and becoming baptized is what first saves us. But, unless we continue to be saved through obedience to God's commandments, and are still saved by our obedience to God's commandments at the time of death, we will not be approved to enter/inherit eternal life. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv​

The works of the law of Moses save no one.

The works of the law of Jesus do continue to save us.

James 2:20-26
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. rsv​

​

My point is that the good works once done by a righteous Christian do not keep him saved when he later deliberately chooses to sin.

Concerning the spiritual life and spiritual death of a soul:

Ezekiel 33:11-20
Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” rsv

Hebrews 10:26-30
6 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 ,,,,,,,29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
​

A person who does not do good works will not be approved to inherit eternal life. You will know who Jesus' sheep are by their good works/fruits.

Matthew 7:19-24
Every tree (person) that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (of hell). 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
24 “Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; rsv

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


First Jesus saves us as His gift to us. We can do nothing to merit this gift of salvation.

However, to be approved to inherit/enter eternal life after we die, we must continue in our salvation until we die. We continue in our salvation by doing the good works that God prepared for us to do and by obeying His commandments until we die.



This also applies to us today. If we deny God/Christ by doing evil works, we will not be approved to inherit/enter eternal life.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. nkjv

Mark 7:6
He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. nkjv

1 Timothy 5:8
If any one (Christian) does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Matthew 13:20-21
As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. rsv
​

I reject your idea of salvation by works of any kind. I suggest you read Romans 8 and I Jn 1. No Id o not promote sin or the right to sin. When I was in Mexico your church was still selling indulgences (the right to sin with permission and blessing having preforgiveness). There is some truth mixed in with your post.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 3:8 "The Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM"
Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Brother Bob,

I have come to understand in the last few months the battle between the Old Sinai Covenant and the New Covenant of Christ. It has been going on for almost 2,000 years now. The Books of Galatians and Hebrews are about this battle.

It would be my guess that 98% of Christians today are both unaware of this battle

In your mind -- is God at war with His own Word??

Luke 24:27 before you answer.
Mark 7:6-13 - before you answer.
2 Timothy 3:16 - before you answer.
Acts 17:11 - before you answer.
Gal 1:6-9 - before you answer
Gal 3:8 - before you answer


What does God's Word say??

Prov 28:4, 9
4 Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.

9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice John doesn't have one word about the 10 commandments that so many Christians hold in high esteem. .

Until you read the actual Bible.


1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"
1 John 5:3-4 keeping the Commandments God - shows that we Love God and Love the saints.

=========

In your mind -- is God at war with His own Word??

Luke 24:27 before you answer.
Mark 7:6-13 - before you answer.
2 Timothy 3:16 - before you answer.
Acts 17:11 - before you answer.
Gal 1:6-9 - before you answer
Gal 3:8 - before you answer


What does God's Word say??

Prov 28:4, 9
4 Those who forsake the law praise the wicked,
But those who keep the law strive with them.

9 He who turns away his ear from listening to the law,
Even his prayer is an abomination.