If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

Little lamb of Jesus Do you know what this is talking about.
Ezekiel 20
25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live; 26 I defiled them through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the Lord.’

In tiny little snips the Bible can be made to like like it is something God opposes. We call that "eisegesis" --

By contrast - Ezek 20 in context is not a case of God condemning His own Word -- rather in Ezek 20 God declares his judgments for those at war with His Commandments.

====================================================

Ezek 20

6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of Egypt into a land I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands. 7 And I said to them, “Each of you, get rid of the vile images you have set your eyes on, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.”

8 “‘But they rebelled against me and would not listen to me; they did not get rid of the vile images they had set their eyes on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in Egypt. 9 But for the sake of my name, I brought them out of Egypt. I did it to keep my name from being profaned in the eyes of the nations among whom they lived and in whose sight I had revealed myself to the Israelites. 10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, by which the person who obeys them will live. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

Sadly these things are the very things that those at war against God's Commandments would trash under foot. Paul says the lost are at war against God and so they "DO not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they." Rom 8:4-9


Ezek 20
13 “‘Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—by which the person who obeys them will live—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and destroy them in the wilderness. 14 But for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land I had given them—a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands— 16 because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols. 17 Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them or put an end to them in the wilderness.


Ezek 20
18 “But I said to their children in the wilderness, ‘Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the Lord your God: Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments, and do them; 20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’

21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, 24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.

25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live;


===================

Notice that in the "actual text" is it the judgment and condemnation for rebellion against God's Word... against God's Commandments, ... against God's Laws... against God's Sabbaths that results in the consequence of judgments, of death, of being given up to statutes that were not good --

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe you need to claim the promises and not get so high and mighty because you think you do not commit wilful sin because you try to keep the Israelite only defunct Sabbath.

Sabbath was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- according to Christ ... but BobS says 'no'
"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23 -- but BobS says "no"
"There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4 -- but BobS says "no".

"Worship HIM WHO MADE the heavens and the earth and the springs of water" Rev 14 - but again we get "God's Sabbath is defunct" from those at war with it.

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

I choose believe the Bible "instead" of the speculations of those who love to rail against it.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry that you think I would suggest that. I was discussing the fact that if one sins they have lost their salvation,

Is that what the Westminster Confession of faith claims -- in your imagination?

What do the authors of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- think is included in the "Commandments of God" -- the "Law of God"??

=================== an example of pro-Sunday scholarship affirming God's TEN Commandments

Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God​

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

The men who wrote the Westminster Confession were attempting to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

They ignored what the Apostle Paul wrote in Galatians chapter 3, which destroys that doctrine and likewise your doctrine as well.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM"
Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

 

[BABerean2]

Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM"
Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Abraham did hear the Good News that through his seed all the nations would be blessed.

Abraham did follow the commandments he was given.
Circumcise your male offspring.

The Apostle Paul proves your doctrine is in error.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (This is the Good News of the Gospel.)

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
(The law was added 430 years after the promise to Abraham.)

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
(The inheritance does not come through the law.)

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law was added because of transgressions until the seed (Christ) could come.

You have been shown this text multiple times, but ignore it to get your doctrine to work.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (Hebrews 11:16)

Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


Keep on holding onto Hagar, the bondwoman.
She will not be heir with the freewoman.

.
.

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry that you think I would suggest that. I was discussing the fact that if one sins they have lost their salvation,

Is that what the Westminster Confession of faith claims -- in your imagination?

What do the authors of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- think is included in the "Commandments of God" -- the "Law of God"??

=================== an example of pro-Sunday scholarship affirming God's TEN Commandments

Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19

"Westminster Confession of Faith"

Chapter XIX
Of the Law of God​

I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;l and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace

VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.

​

The men who wrote the Westminster Confession were attempting to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

They ignored what the Apostle Paul wrote in Galatians chapter 3, which destroys that doctrine and likewise your doctrine as well.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:7 "The Gospel was preached to ABRAHAM"
Genesis 26:5 "Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN
Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

Abraham did hear the Good News that through his seed all the nations would be blessed.

Abraham did follow the commandments he was given.

Christ said -- "Abraham SAW MY day and was glad" John 8:56
Paul said - 'There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 and "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"

Peter said of that OT gospel that is the SAME as the NT -
it included "10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11

So that Hebrews 4 can say "the GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

That's a dead end for "gospel denying"
It is a dead end for "commandment denying"
It is a dead end for the "other gospel" the "two gospel" model.

And even your own pro-sunday scholars know you are wrong to oppose God's Ten Commandments.

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in the still-valid unit-of-TEN

Gal 3 says that while lost -- even after the cross - we are all under condemnation of the law - and released from that condemnation once we come to faith in Christ.

At that point the NEW Covenant takes place and God's "LAW is written on our heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33, Heb 8:6-10 just as we are told in the OT.

And as we see - even your own pro-sunday scholars admit to this.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Mark 2:27 "the SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND"

Tell us BR if the Sabbath was made for "all mankind" then why hasn't God revealed it to all mankind?

The wicked take God's name in vain "is that because that commandment is not for all mankind" in your world??

The Hindus worship false gods -- is that "because the command not to worship false gods does not apply to Hindus" -- in your world?

What point is it -- exactly... that you are trying to make?

I find your logic "illusive".

 

[bugkiller]

In tiny little snips the Bible can be made to like like it is something God opposes. We call that "eisegesis" --

By contrast - Ezek 20 in context is not a case of God condemning His own Word -- rather in Ezek 20 God declares his judgments for those at war with His Commandments.

====================================================

Ezek 20

6 On that day I swore to them that I would bring them out of Egypt into a land I had searched out for them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands. 7 And I said to them, “Each of you, get rid of the vile images you have set your eyes on, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.”

8 “‘But they rebelled against me and would not listen to me; they did not get rid of the vile images they had set their eyes on, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in Egypt. 9 But for the sake of my name, I brought them out of Egypt. I did it to keep my name from being profaned in the eyes of the nations among whom they lived and in whose sight I had revealed myself to the Israelites. 10 Therefore I led them out of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, by which the person who obeys them will live. 12 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

Sadly these things are the very things that those at war against God's Commandments would trash under foot. Paul says the lost are at war against God and so they "DO not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they." Rom 8:4-9


Ezek 20
13 “‘Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—by which the person who obeys them will live—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and destroy them in the wilderness. 14 But for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 15 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land I had given them—a land flowing with milk and honey, the most beautiful of all lands— 16 because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols. 17 Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them or put an end to them in the wilderness.


Ezek 20
18 “But I said to their children in the wilderness, ‘Do not walk in the statutes of your fathers, nor observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols. 19 I am the Lord your God: Walk in My statutes, keep My judgments, and do them; 20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the Lord your God.’

21 “Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; but they profaned My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless I withdrew My hand and acted for My name’s sake, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the Gentiles, in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also I raised My hand in an oath to those in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the Gentiles and disperse them throughout the countries, 24 because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.

25 “Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live;


===================

Notice that in the "actual text" is it the judgment and condemnation for rebellion against God's Word... against God's Commandments, ... against God's Laws... against God's Sabbaths that results in the consequence of judgments, of death, of being given up to statutes that were not good --

I read the text to say Israel is quilty of transgressing their covenant.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sabbath was "MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 -- according to Christ ... but BobS says 'no'

And so does the text when the context of the Bible is considered.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23 -- but BobS says "no"

What is it that BobS says no to? Is it the text or BobRyan's idea of the text?

"There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Hebrews 4 -- but BobS says "no".

See above comment. The word Sabbath dos not appear in the Greek text of this passage. The text does not say the Sabbath remains even in English.

"Worship HIM WHO MADE the heavens and the earth and the springs of water" Rev 14 - but again we get "God's Sabbath is defunct" from those at war with it.

We worship Him who made the heavens and the earth. We do not worship something else.

Choose you this day whom you will serve.

I have and its not EGW nor the law issued at Sinai.

I choose believe the Bible "instead" of the speculations of those who love to rail against it.

How many commandments do you say there are?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Is that what the Westminster Confession of faith claims -- in your imagination?

What do the authors of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- think is included in the "Commandments of God" -- the "Law of God"??

Who cares what the religious people say?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Is that what the Westminster Confession of faith claims -- in your imagination?

What do the authors of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" -- think is included in the "Commandments of God" -- the "Law of God"??

Spam me all you want.

bugkiller

 

[BABerean2]

Christ said -- "Abraham SAW MY day and was glad" John 8:56
Paul said - 'There is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9 and "the Gospel was preached to Abraham"

And according to Bob Ryan that Gospel would be...

"Keep the ten commandments and you will be saved."



Forget what the New Testament says.

Try to make the text fit your Judaiser's doctrine.

It was faith in the coming of Christ that saved Abraham, not by keeping commandments.

Heb_11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb_11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb_11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb_11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb_11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,


You do not need faith in Christ, because you can save yourself by keeping the commandments.

Keep hanging onto Hagar the bondwoman, which Paul compared to the Sinai covenant of bondage, instead of accepting the New Covenant of Grace based on the work of Christ.

Christ's perfect keeping of the 10 commandments, is the Gospel.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


Ellen G. White is Hagar, the bondwoman...


Shut Door Documents from the estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

.

 

[Bob S]

Tell us BR if the Sabbath was made for "all mankind" then why hasn't God revealed it to all mankind? This has been going on for 6000 years and the only nation that God has revealed the Sabbath to is Israel. It is very apparent that God is not concerned with the Sabbath He gave to now defunct Israel. In fact, He instructed Paul to write that the Sabbath is now a shadow. I, for one, do not worship shadows. Jesus is enough.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Tell us BR if the Sabbath was made for "all mankind" then why hasn't God revealed it to all mankind? This has been going on for 6000 years and the only nation that God has revealed the Sabbath to is Israel. It is very apparent that God is not concerned with the Sabbath He gave to now defunct Israel. In fact, He instructed Paul to write that the Sabbath is now a shadow. I, for one, do not worship shadows. Jesus is enough.

There are two types of Sabbaths in the Bible, the weekly Sabbath established at creation and the special Sabbaths called feast days tied to the earthly sanctuary. The sanctuary Sabbaths, feast days, were a shadow of the things to come which were all fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why at the death of Christ on the cross the veil was rent signifying that the earthly Sanctuary was no longer a pathway for the forgiving of sin as Christ the Lamb of GOD had offered himself for the remission of sin for all mankind.

Those shadow Sabbaths were completed in Christ the weekly Sabbath is still with us. Why else would the RCC church put forth these statement.

Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church,the pope."

Our Sunday Visitor
, February 5th, 1950.
“Of course these two old quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit – or blame – for the change.” This Rock, The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Tell us BR if the Sabbath was made for "all mankind" then why hasn't God revealed it to all mankind? This has been going on for 6000 years and the only nation that God has revealed the Sabbath to is Israel. It is very apparent that God is not concerned with the Sabbath He gave to now defunct Israel. In fact, He instructed Paul to write that the Sabbath is now a shadow. I, for one, do not worship shadows. Jesus is enough.

Exodus 16 is before the giving of the law at Sinai where the Sabbath was an issue for the Lord.


Exodus 16 King James Version (KJV)
16 And they took their journey from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came unto the wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt.
2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness:
3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.
4 Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God.
16 This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto theLord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Question??? What laws is this statement referring to, "keep my commandments and my laws?" as it was said by the Lord prior to the ten commandments being given.

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

 

[Jan001]

Don't know but these words of Jesus say I've already passed the judgment -

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5

bugkiller

Salvation is a life-long process.

A person becomes spiritually regenerated--born again when he first believes and is baptized.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. rsv​

A saved person will continually be tested until he dies to see if he will remain faithful/endure to the end.

Matthew 14:1-9, 18-23
That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears, let him hear.” ....
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” rsv

Mark 13:10-13
And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; 13 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv

​

A person who continues in the faith by obeying the gospel/commandments of Jesus Christ and by doing the will of God the Father until his death will then be approved to enter into eternal life and he will not come into condemnation to hell. If a person is still saved/faithful at the time of his death, he will be approved to enter/inherit eternal life.

Matthew 21:43
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you (Israelites) and given to a nation (Greeks) producing the fruits of it.”


Matthew 7:20-23
Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ rsv​

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

You can determine if a church is the true Church by asking its members the following question...

Who is the head of your church?

If they give the name of a man or they bow down to a man, then it is not the true Church.

Jesus in heaven is the head of my church on earth. The pope speaks in Jesus' name on earth just as Moses spoke in God's name on earth. Luke 10:16

When Cornelius tried to bow down to Peter, Peter compelled him not to do so.

When John tried to bow down to the angel in the Book of Revelation, the angel compelled him not to do so.

Bowing down as a sign of worship is different than bowing down as a sign of respect. Abraham bowed down before two angels. Abraham bowed down before the people. A Christian who bows before the king or queen of his country is showing respect; he is not worshiping the king or queen.

Genesis 19:1-2a
The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, 2 and said, “My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; rsv

Genesis 23:7
Abraham rose and bowed to the Hittites, the people of the land. rsv

Revelation 3:9
Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you. rsv

Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church and His Holy Word takes precedent over the words of any man.
Let God be true and every man a liar.

I have already bowed down to Christ, and every person will do so in the end.

However, I will not bow down to a man made of the same flesh I am made of, no matter who he claims to be.

Romans 13:1-7
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. rsv

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. rsv

1 Peter 2:18
Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. rsv

Titus 2:9
Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory,

Titus 3:1
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for any honest work,

2 Peter 2:9-10
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and wilful, they are not afraid to revile the glorious ones,

Acts 23:1-5
And the high priest Anani′as commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth. 3 Then Paul said to him, “God shall strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?” 4 Those who stood by said, “Would you revile God’s high priest?” 5 And Paul said, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”


You may do as you want.

 

[Jan001]

Jude 1:24
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Is this verse just blowing in the wind or can we claim it as a promise. If you cannot then you deny scripture. If Jesus is able to keep us from falling then why can't we claim OSAS? Why would some be so adamantly opposed to God's promise? I believe I have an answer, you are programed not to believe this promise just like you are programed to believe we must observe old covenant ritual laws.

Jesus is able to keep us from falling when we listen to His Holy Spirit and obey His commandments. If we choose to sin instead of obey, Jesus is not able to keep us from falling. He gives us free will to choose to do good or evil. Our own choice.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. rsv
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We will reap eternal life after we die if we do not lose heart/sin/fall away before death.

 

[Jan001]

There are two types of Sabbaths in the Bible, the weekly Sabbath established at creation and the special Sabbaths called feast days tied to the earthly sanctuary. The sanctuary Sabbaths, feast days, were a shadow of the things to come which were all fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why at the death of Christ on the cross the veil was rent signifying that the earthly Sanctuary was no longer a pathway for the forgiving of sin as Christ the Lamb of GOD had offered himself for the remission of sin for all mankind.

Those shadow Sabbaths were completed in Christ the weekly Sabbath is still with us. Why else would the RCC church put forth these statement.

Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

"Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church,the pope."

Our Sunday Visitor
, February 5th, 1950.
“Of course these two old quotations are exactly correct. The Catholic Church designated Sunday as the day for corporate worship and gets full credit – or blame – for the change.” This Rock, The Magazine of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization, p.8, June 1997

The Catholic Church made the commandment because the early church fathers taught that Jesus commanded them to worship on the first day of the week, and that is why the NT factually reports that the apostles and disciples were worshiping on the first day of the week.

 

[BABerean2]

You may do as you want.

I may not do as I want, under the New Covenant.

I am under the Law of Christ.

There is only One Church, with One Mediator, who is Christ.

I do not have to go through any man to have access to God.

I do not need any man to tell me what is written in God's Word.
I can read and in the New Covenant the Holy Spirit is the teacher.

.

 

[Jan001]

I may not do as I want, under the New Covenant.

I am under the Law of Christ.

There is only One Church, with One Mediator, who is Christ.

I do not have to go through any man to have access to God.

I do not need any man to tell me what is written in God's Word.
I can read and in the New Covenant the Holy Spirit is the teacher.

.

Jesus founded a Church. He appointed its leaders and He set up a line of succession for the leaders of His Church. He gave them His own authority to make disciples for Him and to preach to these disciples His gospel. Matthew 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 2 Timothy 4:2, 2 Timothy 2:2, Ephesians 4:10-12, Revelation 2:2

You have made yourself the leader of your own "church" based upon your own interpretations of the writings/Scriptures of His leaders and their successors. God did not give you the authority to do this. You have assumed it for yourself.

The Holy Spirit guides the leaders of His Church into all truth. He never made this promise to any or all individuals who read the Scriptures (which were written by the leaders of His Church as supplements to their oral teachings).

2 Peter 3:16
speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. rsv​

 

[Bob S]

Jesus is able to keep us from falling when we listen to His Holy Spirit and obey His commandments. If we choose to sin instead of obey, Jesus is not able to keep us from falling. He gives us free will to choose to do good or evil. Our own choice.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who ws to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. rsv
​

We will reap eternal life after we die if we do not lose heart/sin/fall away before death.

Well I reckon then that we are all reprobates because we all continue to sin. I guess I should speak for myself. It seems that some of you, the way you use verses, you must believe you have overcome sinning.