Sophrosyne
Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Nope... but you can explain to me how one can see the sun when it doesn't stop raining for a week.
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Nope... but you can explain to me how one can see the sun when it doesn't stop raining for a week.Can we quote you on that - as our authority on the point?
until they read Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??
And ask themselves "First commandment where??"
AND Then they read Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 where even GENTILES are attending "Sabbath after Sabbath" Gospel sermons - such that in Acts 15 this "Everybody is in church on Sabbath" idea is mentioned by James as part of the "solution" to the problem of circumcision for gentiles.
Acts 15
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
And they ask themselves "how does that attendance by all Christians every Sabbath - solve the Acts 15 question?"
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Not everyone will allow themselves to ask or answer those two questions -- of course.
still can't answer those two questions??
or wont answer them - ?
Bob S wrote: Well in the mean time, the unbiased objective readers are free to read the two questions above -- and answer them.
Why isn't Jesus statement in Matt 5 about an eye for an eye the key verse for Christians having to keep Torah law?
Afraid to answer or ever comment on the next sentence after the comment of mine you quoted. Seems kinda sneaky to me, but since you are part of the clan that does the same thing I will consider the source.Concerning Eph 6:2, why would i want entertain a question that is a dead end concerning whether the old covenant Israelite only Sabbath that is history is relevant? The ball is in your court my friend. Should we be keeping the Torah because Jesus mentioned the command for an eye for an eye? Are you afraid that with that question I have nullified your continuous poorly thought out question.
Jan001 said: ↑
I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.
Oh yes, he uses Eph 6 and some other Adventist "proof texts". Eph 6:2 concerning how children relate to parents is supposed to be a key verse to convince Christians
Why isn't Jesus statement in Matt 5 about an eye for an eye the key verse for Christians having to keep Torah law?
Concerning Eph 6:2, why would i want entertain a question that is a dead end
You still cannot deny that you cannot prove Adam and Eve became Sabbath keepers .
Sabbath was an Israelite ritual
I am not a Sabbath breaker either for where there is no law there is no sin.Well they were not Sabbath breakers - and Ex 20:11 says Sabbath begins with Gen 2:1-3. They did not sin until Gen 3 eating of the forbidden tree. "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"Sabbath was MADE for mankind - not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" that is days 6 and 7 of creation week.
This is not a case of partisan acceptance of Bible fact - but rather bipartisan because the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship sees this same Bible detail without having to block it to protect a given previous bias. The idea that Spurgeon, Mattew Henry, the "Westminster Confession of Faith" authors - were all followers of Ellen White as if THIS is the reason that they admit to these obvious Bible details - and simply that the read the Bible and noticed them .. .simply does not fly with most Christians.
Trying to cast every difference as one between you and Ellen White - is a huge mistake.
How many hours a day and for how many years have you studied the bible before I respond.Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.
By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --
"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?
Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.
John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"
And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"
John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.
John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant
Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.
Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?
==========================
If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -
In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??
First commandment where??
Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.
Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.
By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --
"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?
Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.
John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."
John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."
Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"
And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"
John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.
John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
==================================================
Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant
Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.
Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?
==========================
If you oppose the Commandments of God in NT times - then answer this question -
In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??
First commandment where??
Two simple questions - easy answer to each one - Yesterday at 11:09 AM #383
Resolves the entire debate on this thread.
How many hours a day and for how many years have you studied the bible before I respond.
Matthew chapter 4 verse 4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
Romans chapter 1 verse 28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
I am not a Sabbath breaker either for where there is no law there is no sin.
I really do not comprehend your thoughts on Spurgeon etc and Ellen, whatever.
Yes most people read the bible if at all like it's a book written by men easy to understand, they don't see it like it is a book written by God maybe not possible to understand in a life time of study.Did you have a point??
Great post Jan. Why would Jesus give up the throne in Heaven to come to Earth, endure all that He did, die for our sins and then put us right back into the same covenant that his special people couldn't overcome? OY!
SDAs' prophet tells the flock that they must stand before the throne in the last days without Jesus. In other words, they have to have attain a perfect character. This is ludicrous. If man can become perfect without the shed blood covering us, Jesus came for naught. Did you realize that Adventists are the ones that are holding up the second coming of the Lord. Yep, they have to attain perfection before Jesus will return. I guess it is our job to help them to attain this perfection thing because it has been 180 years since their launching and no one yet has come up to the plate.
until they read
In Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" -- what Law - what unit of Law is it to be found that 'honor your father and mother" is the FIRST commandment with a promise??
And ask themselves "First commandment where??"
AND Then they read Acts 13, Acts 17, Acts 18 where even GENTILES are attending "Sabbath after Sabbath" Gospel sermons - such that in Acts 15 this "Everybody is in church on Sabbath" idea is mentioned by James as part of the "solution" to the problem of circumcision for gentiles.
Acts 15
21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
And they ask themselves "how does that attendance by all Christians every Sabbath - solve the Acts 15 question?"
I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.
Paul is commenting on one of the Ten Commandments that Moses gave to the Israelites. But, Paul is also simply repeating what is universal natural law
for all times and all peoples. It is true that this commandment is the first written commandment with a promise that was given to the Israelites.
Not true at all -
Ex 20:11 points to it existing in Genesis 2:1-3 a point that D.L. Moody admits, and the Westminster Confession of Faith admits and the Baptist Confession of Faith admits - and even the Catholic church admits that the Sabbath Commandment is for mankind as one of the TEN Commandments - the unchangable LAW of God.
A point Christ also affirms about the LAW of God in Mark 7:6-13 when he condemns man-made traditions that try to edit/downsize/change that law..
No that is not true at all. This is not the first command in the 5 books of Moses with a promise.
I think we all know that.
I think most people who claim to be Christians know that the OT Sabbath is irrelevant for NT Christians.
I said it was the first WRITTEN commandment with a promise. It was written by God on stone tablets.
No, the Sabbath Commandment for rest is not valid for Catholics, but the Sunday Commandment for rest is valid for Catholics.
QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68990737, member: 235244"]notice the "details" in their claim - and even Bob S does not attempt to prove them wrong
==============================
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!!
Here Pope John Paul argues two points in his document "Dies Domini"
1. That the TEN Commandments (all TEN... not just NINE ) still remain. What does that mean about the SABBATH Commandment? gone - or remains? or bent to point to??
2. In the second quote John Paul II Refers to the OT Sabbath as the LORD's Day -
Pope John Paul II
Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.
Dies Domini
From the Sabbath to Sunday
18. Because the Third (the Sabbath) Commandment depends upon the remembrance of God's saving works and because Christians saw the definitive time inaugurated by Christ as a new beginning, they made the first day after the Sabbath a festive day, for that was the day on which the Lord rose from the dead. The Paschal Mystery of Christ is the full revelation of the mystery of the world's origin, the climax of the history of salvation and the anticipation of the eschatological fulfilment of the world. What God accomplished in Creation and wrought for his People in the Exodus has found its fullest expression in Christ's Death and Resurrection, though its definitive fulfilment will not come until the Parousia, when Christ returns in glory. In him, the "spiritual" meaning of the Sabbath is fully realized, as Saint Gregory the Great declares: "For us, the true Sabbath is the person of our Redeemer, our Lord Jesus Christ".(14) This is why the joy with which God, on humanity's first Sabbath, contemplates all that was created from nothing, is now expressed in the joy with which Christ, on Easter Sunday, appeared to his disciples, bringing the gift of peace and the gift of the Spirit (cf. Jn 20:19-23). It was in the Paschal Mystery that humanity, and with it the whole creation, "groaning in birth-pangs until now" (Rom 8:22), came to know its new "exodus" into the freedom of God's children who can cry out with Christ, "Abba, Father!" (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!
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Key question:
In legal terms - what does it mean to change one of the TEN commandments in the law - so that its obligation, its authority, its observance is now transferred to some other day - other than the one as given in that Command??
1. To say that the 7th day has lost all of its solemnity - deleted by man made tradition. ... is that a "Change" - in legal terms to that command?
2. To say that the 7th day has its solemnity TRANSFERRED to another - day such that the 7th day no longer has that solemnity - rather some other day has it. Is that a "CHANGE" to the commandment? Or does it remain as solemn, binding, obligatory as ever when it loses all of its solemnity by having it transferred to another day!
I am not at all convinced that we are as far apart on that particular point as you seem to claim.
The early Christian Catholic Sunday rest commandment and its breaking of the bread (sharing communion) was commanded by Jesus to His apostles.
Acts 20:7
Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight. nkjv
Catholic Ten Commandments
1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
4. Honor your father and your mother
5. You shall not kill
6. You shall not commit adultery
7. You shall not steal
8. You shall not bear false witness
9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
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