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Ask Jan... she is the one who claimed that one must keep commandments till they die to "be approved" for eternal life. To me that says salvation hinges on keeping commandments.
That is not found in scripture in fact the exact opposite is found. Abraham was saved by Faith... We are told that Abraham believed G-d (concerning the promise) and it was counted as righteousness to him.... G-d speaking to Issac said that Abraham listened to G-d that he obeyed his ordinances, statues, decree's and commandments.... Abraham was obedient but SAVED by Grace through his Faith.
Same with all of the prophets and patriarchs. Same as any believer today.
Purpose of Torah is to show us HOW to love G-d and our fellow man (the 2 great commandments)
We are led by the Spirit and the Spirit leads us to all truth.... scripture tells us what is Truth.... TORAH IS TRUTH.
Consider the parable of the prodigal son.... One was obedient (walked in the light of Torah)... one was not.... BOTH were sons (saved)
What did the prodigal son do? Sowed to his flesh. He ends up defiling himself but wakes up and decides to return to his Father to beg to be hired as a servant.
The Father does not curse him but REJOICES....
......In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.
The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing.
What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing.
What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.
And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7
And "yet" when you ask Jan if she believes in free will she may be saying "yes"
If you ask if she believes the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS - she may be saying "no" because of what we find in Matt 18, Romans 11, John 15:1-8 etc.
If you ask if she believes in 1John 3, 1 John 2:1-8 -- the answer is probably "yes".
Yet if you ask "so then all the lost have to do is keep God's commandments and they will thereby earn their way to heaven - no matter that all have sinned?" -- the answer is likely to be "no" since in fact the Law is not a means of salvation -- it is not its own 'Savior".
explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.Yes, after Jesus saves a person as His gift to this person, in order for this person to be approved to enter into eternal life he must do his best to keep God's commandments until he dies. Salvation is a lifelong process. Salvation is not a onetime event.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it command us to keep the Saturday Sabbath.
But it does state that the circumcision of the flesh has been replaced with the circumcision of the heart.
So, since the apostles replaced the OT TORAH COMMANDS about the Levitical priesthood and circumcision for NT Christians, why is it so difficult to believe that the Saturday Sabbath was replaced with the Sunday Lord's Day worship and rest?
explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.
explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.
In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.
The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.
What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.
What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.
And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7
Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.
In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "
The Bible is the word of God and testifies to its own origin. Virtually all Christian churches accept the Bible as true. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that there is something ELSE that is its equal. Therefore, Sola Scriptura.You still have not provided Scriptural proof that sola scriptura is biblical.
I have shown that both the oral traditions [by word] and the written traditions [by epistle/letter] must be adhered to by all Christians.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. niv
2. I've provided Scriptural proof [2 Thessalonians 2:15] that Scripture alone is not true. Why do you continue to insist that Sola Scriptura is true?
In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.
The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.
What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.
What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.
And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7
Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.
Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
So then - we can agree to disagree.
Indeed that command is not repeated in every chapter of the OT just as the third commandment is not repeated at all in the NT - the command not to take God's name in vain.
A fact that does not delete the commandment - it merely is a fact.
In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "
Because "making stuff up" does not have the same authority as "scripture".
In Romans 2 we are told of circumcision of the heart - being that which matters while circumcision of the flesh does not matter.
In Heb 7 we are told that the Levitical priesthood has ended - while not told anywhere that week-day-1 replaces the 7th day.
Rev 1:10 does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"
Rev 1:10 does not say "The Lord's Day is a replacement for the 4th commandment Sabbath"
And, the command for keeping the Saturday Sabbath is also missing from all lists of commandments for NT Christians.
However, the Sunday "first day of the week" Lord's Day is not a human tradition. It is commanded by Jesus Christ.
This command of Jesus is not specifically stated in the Bible as, "You will attend first day worship services instead of Saturday Sabbath services."
Every Christian who lived in 30 A.D. was participating in the weekly first day of the week Sunday Lord's Day worship service.
Isaiah 66:23 could just as well have stated: "Everyone will continually worship me."
Yes, what matters is keeping the commandments of God; however, the commandments for NT Christians do not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.
Faithful Christians assemble together to worship God on the first day of every week of every year.
We call our worship day on the first day of the week the Lord's Day
You still have not provided Scriptural proof that sola scriptura is biblical.
I have shown that both the oral traditions [by word] and the written traditions [by epistle/letter] must be adhered to by all Christians.
The Christians who lived in that time period assembled together on the first day of the week/the Lord's Day and broke bread and worshiped God together. This is a historical fact.
1. Colossians 2:13-16 commands the Christians to ignore the Jewish converts who insist that Christians keep the dietary laws, the festival laws, new moon laws, and Sabbath laws.
The Bible is the word of God and testifies to its own origin. Virtually all Christian churches accept the Bible as true. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing that supports the idea that there is something ELSE that is its equal. Therefore, Sola Scriptura.
Because there is not a single verse (including 2 Thess 2.15) that says or implies that there is anything that's the equal of Scripture--yet that is exactly what "Holy Tradition" or "Sacred Tradition" is alleged to be.
In addition, there is no logic to thinking that there is such an authority that's parallel to the Bible unless there's some reason to think that God's own word is insufficient for his purposes or incomplete.
Not entirely true since Eph 6:2 says that the unit of law to be kept by the saints is the TEN Commandments and Heb 4 says "there REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God" and 1Cor 7:19 says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God."
And of course - Mark 7:6-13 condemns the efforts to bend/edit/twist the Commandments of God to conform to man's tradition.
Just not in the actual Bible.
true - it simply is not there - to get statements like you claimed in your prior statement - one would have to "quote you".
But not according to the actual Bible.
to get such statements as you just made - one would have to "quote you" - not the Bible.
Not true at all since "From Sabbath to Sabbath" is never used in all of scripture for "continually".
And not true since Is 66 specifically identifies TWO cycles. one weekly and one monthly - which does not fit at all into the reworked "continually" idea. This point is irrefutable.
until you read the Bible - in places such as Heb 4 'there remains therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" -- remains from the time of David and the Psalms at the very least according to Heb 4.
Col 2 condemns "making stuff up" it does not condemn, food, or drink or the Bible commandments. Christ paid our debt due to sin - he did not abolish His own Word on the cross!
Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.
But not in the Bible.
Not even in the NT.
until you read Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13.
"Sola Scriptura" as a doctrine in the teaching that all doctrine and tradition must be tested against scripture to see if they contradict with the Word of God.
Not weekly
No it doesn't.
Paul is himself 'A Jewish convert". And "dietary laws" are found in Acts 15 - not just in Lev 11 and Lev 17.
The Bible does not and cannot testify to its own origin. The Bible is a book. It cannot speak to testify about anything. It is an inanimate object.
I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.
so while we DO have those NT statements support of the 7th day Sabbath - we have NONE of them for week-day-1
We DO NOT have in the entire Bible
1. Week-day 1 is the Sabbath
2. Week-day 1 is the Lord's day
3. Christians observe week day 1 as a day of rest and worship
4. Christians replace the Sabbath with week-day-1 services.
5. week day 1 is the "Holy day of the Lord"
6. "Remember week-day-1 to keep it holy"
7. "week day-1 made for mankind"
8. "from week-day-1 to week-day-1 shall all mankind come before Me to worship"
Nothing of that sort in the entire Bible for week-day-1
And yet the Bible has almost all of those statements above - for God's 7th day - "our saturday" - Sabbath.
Very true. Problem is you're applying it to an expired covenant we are not held accountable to.Abraham was first saved by faith. He believed God when God told him that he was to become the father of many nations.
Genesis 17:4Abraham continued to be saved by obeying God's command to sacrifice his son.
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. niv
Abraham remained faithful to God by obeying God's command to sacrifice his own son. God stopped the sacrifice when He saw that Abraham was obedient to Him.
Matthew 10:37If a saved person does not obey God, he ceases to believe that God is God. In order to continue in belief/faith a person must obey God's commandments.
He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. nkjv
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? niv
What happens to Christians who fail to continue in the faith through their disobedience?
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ niv
The disobedient prodigal son would not have been re-stored to his father if he had not repented of his sins.
Unrepentant disobedient sons are disinherited and they are not approved to enter into eternal life.
Paul warns his flock:
Ephesians 5:5-7Please note that God's wrath is coming upon His sons who are disobedient to Him.
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them. niv
Colossians 3:5-7
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them. nkjv
2 Thessalonians 1:7b-8
...when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv
Your total presentation over several posts of what you state is contradictory.Yes, I do believe in free will.
No, I do not believe in OSAS.
Yes, I do believe in 1 John 3 and 1 John 2:1-8. My understanding of these passages may not be the same as yours. Please be more specific as to the points you desire to make.
We are saved by grace alone. What exactly is this grace? This grace is the Holy Spirit's presence within us. If He is still abiding/remaining within us at the time we die, we will be approved to inherit eternal life.
If the Holy Spirit is no longer present within us at the time of our death due to our unrepentant disobedience, we will not be approved to inherit eternal life.
Acts 5:32God takes His Holy Spirit away from the people who do not obey Him.
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” nkjv
Galatians 6:8There are many laws against doing what is evil. There are no laws against doing what is good.
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv
John 12:26
If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor. nkjv
Galatians 5:19-23
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. nkjv
If a person serves His fleshly desires he will be condemned. If a person serves God until death he will be approved to inherit eternal life.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. nkjv
Galatians 6:8How does a person sow to the Holy Spirit?
For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. nkjv
2 Peter 1:2-8
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv
Right on!!!! All one needs to do in this case is to pay attention to the words of Jesus which are in the present tense.explain which "commandments" one must keep to not forfeit ones salvation.
No, I don't buy that salvation is a lifelong process because then nobody truly knows of they are saved or not if that is true one has to "keep" commandment after commandment wondering if they ever keep enough "commandments" to be saved or not.
Which you do as proven in many posts.In fact "the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD" appears to be something we both agree to.
The missing text saying "and the first day of the week is the LORD's Day" is missing from the entire Bible.
What is more "you can replace God's 7th day Sabbath with week day 1 if you wish" is also missing -- found nowhere in the entire Bible.
What we "do have" is Mark 7:6-13 that condemns the idea of editing/tweeking God's Commandments.
You continue to avoid those little words highlighted in blue. They say nothing about on.And what we "do have" is Is 66:23 saying that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"
but your view isn't based on the Bible. Yes you quote it.What we do have is "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
And we have "Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the earth the seas and springs of waters" Rev 14:7
Then perhaps the texts above would not mean that much to you - but for someone using the sola scriptura model they are very instructive.
Are you admitting here that you're a violator? You don't keep the Sabbath as presented in Ex 20.Traditions that violate the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:6-13 which is not to say that all tradition would do that.
Paul didn't teach us to keep the law.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
Continued misuse of the Bible to promote false doctrine.John 21:25
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
So then - we can agree to disagree.
Indeed that command is not repeated in every chapter of the OT just as the third commandment is not repeated at all in the NT - the command not to take God's name in vain.
A fact that does not delete the commandment - it merely is a fact.
In the NT we do have "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 speaking of the 7th day Sabbath of the TEN Commandments -- and nothing of that sort for "week day 1 made for mankind" nor "week day 1 is the Lord's Day "
OK, what you say has no validity (authority).Because "making stuff up" does not have the same authority as "scripture".
In Romans 2 we are told of circumcision of the heart - being that which matters while circumcision of the flesh does not matter.This applies only to Jews. Christians aren't circumcised in any fashion. Such would make them obligated to the law which Paul says in the same book we are delivered from.No one can keep the 7th day Sabbath without the Levitical priesthood. Its all the law or none of the law (grace).In Heb 7 we are told that the Levitical priesthood has ended - while not told anywhere that week-day-1 replaces the 7th day.It doesn't say its the 7th day either. It can and has been supported from both the Bible and historical documents John is speaking about the 1st day of the week.Rev 1:10 does not say "week day 1 is the Lord's Day"So what.Rev 1:10 does not say "The Lord's Day is a replacement for the 4th commandment Sabbath"
bugkiller
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