If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

ClothedInGrace said:

Hebrews 4:9 is not Paul telling believers to keep the Sabbath: He is writing about how the Jews did not enter God's true Sabbath rest, Jesus, because they were going back to the law in unbelief. You shouldn't take verses out of context.

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Hebrews was written to the Jewish Christians who were thinking about going back to all their old Jewish customs. You are correct about how the Jews did not keep Sabbath as God intended. But this does say that there is a rest that remains, and the surrounding passages talk about how it remains for both God and man.

Alawishis said:

Can you love your wife without keeping your marriage vows? Maybe. I'm not sure she'd be very understanding. Jesus was very plain "If you love me keep my commandments" John 14:5 , John 14:21 , John 15:10 . What do you suppose He was talking about?

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Yes, many people love their spouse and commit adultery during their marriage. Your idea that one cannot love if they sin is ludicrous and the reason that God did away with the Law for believers because some think as you do that love = obedience and since nobody could obey the Law then according to that thinking nobody loved God. As for the continual harping on a single ripped out of context commandment of Jesus it has been shown in the same book as Jesus continued speaking what commandments he was talking about and they were about believing and loving not keeping laws of Moses.

Sophrosyne said:

Not according to your logic...... you are equating obedience with love and one can obey without loving better than one loves without obeying and you would side with the one loving less over the one obeying. At what point does love trump obedience to your logic? What if love was replaced with faith instead? What if a child hated his parents but realized they were filthy rich and obeyed them perfectly while their sibling loved their parents but didn't always obey them... who would the parents choose to inherit? As for the heart issue, it isn't about heart but faith in the first place those who have faith in God will find themselves obeying Jesus edict to love one another and the commandments that are to prohibit hateful deeds will be less broken or not at all.

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Not me, this is what Jesus is very clear about.

1. Jesus was very plain "If you love me keep my commandments" John 14:5 , John 14:21 , John 15:10 .
   It's not just Jesus the link between obedience and love is throughout the entire bible starting right at the forbidden tree in Eden. Obedience and love are not mutually exclusive as you paint it. Lets not get this backwards, it's not obedience for the sake of obedience that's what the Pharisees were all about. It's not obedience in order to be saved that's salvation by works. This is a point in Jesus teachings that so many people miss. For obedience to be pleasing to God it has to be born out of love. Jesus just didn't say, "obey me", he said, "if you love me keep my commandments."
   
   Think of a apple tree. The apple tree does not produce apples in order to be an apple tree. No, the apple tree produces apples, because it is an apple tree. The same way out obedience is a natural manifestation of our love of our Creator. The same way we keep our marriage vows because we love our wives. Allow yourself to relax and think about this for a while. Love, faith and obedience are all part of the christian walk. Without love we cannot have faith. Without faith, our works are dead. Without works our faith is dead. It's all tied together by love. Our love for our Creator and his saving love for us. But never for a moment think that any of it means we are earning our salvation.

Alawishis said:

Not me, this is what Jesus is very clear about.

1. Jesus was very plain "If you love me keep my commandments" John 14:5 , John 14:21 , John 15:10 .
   It's not just Jesus the link between obedience and love is throughout the entire bible starting right at the forbidden tree in Eden. Obedience and love are not mutually exclusive as you paint it. Lets not get this backwards, it's not obedience for the sake of obedience that's what the Pharisees were all about. It's not obedience in order to be saved that's salvation by works. This is a point in Jesus teachings that so many people miss. For obedience to be pleasing to God it has to be born out of love. Jesus just didn't say, "obey me", he said, "if you love me keep my commandments."
   
   Think of a apple tree. The apple tree does not produce apples in order to be an apple tree. No, the apple tree produces apples, because it is an apple tree. The same way out obedience is a natural manifestation of our love of our Creator. The same way we keep our marriage vows because we love our wives. Allow yourself to relax and think about this for a while. Love, faith and obedience are all part of the christian walk. Without love we cannot have faith. Without faith, our works are dead. Without works our faith is dead. It's all tied together by love. Our love for our Creator and his saving love for us. But never for a moment think that any of it means we are earning our salvation.

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The problem is you refuse to admit that Jesus commandments was to LOVE, which means if you love me..... love. You have rejected the Bible itself. Here is scripture.

7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”

8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Jesus commandments is in red here... believe in him, and do the works like he did and ask him in his name for help. You are putting words in Jesus mouth about commandments Jesus didn't speak when he was saying that. If commandments are included where he says that guess what? They ARE his commandments he is talking about, not the ones given to Moses.

BABerean2 said:

... In Col. 2:16 Paul stated that no one is to judge us in Sabbath days or meats or holy days, etc. ...

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[1] Where is Paul quoting from in the Old Testament specifically, in regards to Colossians 2:14-17? There are several texts he is utilizing [for ex. Psalms 98:1-3 for just a single reference, are there then any others?].

Consider again, Colossians 2:15:


Now, consider Psalms 98:1-3:


The Greek of Colossians 2:15, "edeigmatisen" ["made a shew of them openly"] is also similarly used in Matthew 1:19 and Hebrews 6:6, as "paradeigmatisai" ["a publick example"] and "paradeigmatizontas" ["to an open shame"] respectively.

The two sets of phrases, [1] "cheirographon tois dogmasin" and [2] "edeigmatisen" are interesting.

Also, the word “spoiled”, in the Greek is “anekdusumenos”, and is used again in Colossians 3:9, where it reads “have put off”, meaning to “strip away” [remove] as a garment being laid aside, removed, de-robed, unclothed, etc.


[2] What, specifically, is the "handwriting of ordinances", that Paul is speaking of, for he is again referring to the Old Testament usage from which he is quoting, and does he utilize the same language anywhere else in the NT, if so where?

What do we see of this "hand" "writ[ing]" of "ordinances"?

Sophrosyne said:

Yes, many people love their spouse and commit adultery during their marriage. Your idea that one cannot love if they sin is ludicrous and the reason that God did away with the Law for believers because some think as you do that love = obedience and since nobody could obey the Law then according to that thinking nobody loved God. As for the continual harping on a single ripped out of context commandment of Jesus it has been shown in the same book as Jesus continued speaking what commandments he was talking about and they were about believing and loving not keeping laws of Moses.

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Well your putting words in my mouth, but OK lets have a look at what you said. Is adultery and act of a loving spouse, or is it an act of selfish self gratification? Can I love my wife through adultery? It doesn't mean an adulterer cannot love their spouse ? No, of course not. Would you say that adultery is a sign of love? Would you question a persons love if they were an adulterer? Yes, I think any sane persons would.

Love does not = obedience. I hope you read what I said. Love includes obedience. If an adulterer continues in his or her ways love is not in their future. If love does not over come adultery, surely the adultery will overcome the love.

Please point out where I have quoted out of context? I would like to make corrections.

BABerean2 said:

... In Col. 2:16 Paul stated that no one is to judge us in Sabbath days or meats or holy days, etc. ...

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[3] What is the definition of sin [1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23] that Paul utilizes in the very context?


[4] Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

[5] In verse 16 there is a list of "ordinances" that are found given in that order, and in other, in the Old Testament, what are they referring to there?

[6] Is there a significance to the specific ordering that Paul utilizes of those "ordinances"?, In other words, is there a specific time frame involved for each item in the list [for ex. daily, seasonally, monthly, yearly [or of years, etc]]

There is. The order is given as:

BABerean2 said:

...In Col. 2:16 Paul stated that no one is to judge us in Sabbath days or meats or holy days, etc. ...

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[7] In verse 16, the verse says, "...of the sabbath days", which is plural in the very Greek itself, as well as English in the KJB, what "sabbath days" then is Paul referring to specifically, and how may we know?


[8] In verse 17, what are the two contrasting words "shadow" and "body" referring to, and does the New Testament utilize this same word elsewhere, and if so, in what way? Additionally, were they of things past [iow, a memorial, a remembrance], or "...of things to come."?

God's Ten Commandments are not "shadow", they are "Light":

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/14.htm
5One indeed judges one day above another, another judges every day alike. Let each one be completely persuaded in his own mind.

6He who minds the day, minds it to יהוה. And he who does not mind the day, to יהוה he does not mind it. He who eats, eats to יהוה, for he gives Elohim thanks. And he who does not eat, to יהוה he does not eat, and gives Elohim thanks.

7For not one of us lives to himself, and not one dies to himself.

13Therefore let us not judge one another any longer, but rather judge this, not to put an obstacle or a stumbling-block in our brother’s way.

14I know and am persuaded in the Master יהושע that none at all is common of itself. But to him who regards whatever to be common, to him it is common.

15And if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not by your food ruin the one for whom Messiah died.

16Do not then allow your good to be spoken of as evil.

17For the reign of Elohim is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Set-apart Spirit.

18For he who is serving Messiah in these matters is well-pleasing to Elohim and approved by men.

19So, then, let us pursue the matters of peace and the matters for building up one another.

20Do not destroy the work of Elohim for the sake of food. All indeed are clean, but evil to that man who eats so as to cause stumbling.

21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine, nor to do whatever by which your brother stumbles.

22Do you have belief? Have it to yourself before Elohim. Blessed is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Alawishis said:

......

1. Jesus was very plain "If you love me keep my commandments" John 14:5 , John 14:21 , John 15:10 . ....

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So, in your opinion, are the OT dietary laws necessary for the Christian? Is the OT circumcision law necessary for the Christian? Are the OT feasts and new moon celebrations necessary for the Christian?

If you do think that these OT laws are not necessary for the Christian, why then do you think that the OT Sabbath law is still necessary for the Christian?

ron4shua said:

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/14.htm...

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Ah, yes, Romans 14, probably the greatest abused [Judges 19:25] texts in all of scripture. Those passages are the classic go-to text to attempt to hide behind, and at the same time promote ones disobedience to God, and so also wrested to support all manner of lawlessness and sin in the name of holiness and righteousness. Peter warned all, and their judgment is coming:

Shall we go indepth into Romans 14, that it may be clearly seen?

Practicing Christians do keep the Lord's day holy on Sunday, the first day of the week, just as Jesus commanded His followers to do. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and He changed the day of worship for His followers to Sunday which was the day of the week that He rose from the dead. He commanded it; we are to obey His command.

The early Christians called Sunday the Lord's day to differentiate it from the Saturday Sabbath day of the Jews and Sunday is the day the Christians all gathered together to remember Jesus' life, death, and resurrection and to hear scripture; to partake of His Body and Blood in a worthy manner; to worship God; and to take up collections for their needy brethren.


Revelation 1:10
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,"

Acts 20:7
"Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight."

1 Corinthians 16:2
"On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come."


Paul perhaps did not want to interrupt his preaching to them while he was with them and so he asked them to take up collections at each of their weekly gatherings on Sunday the first day of the week. Paul's time was limited on each of his visits.

The OT Covenant was finished by Jesus' death on the cross. This first covenant must give way to the New Covenant because new wine (the New Covenant) cannot be put in the (Old Covenant) wineskins.


Mark 2:22
"And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

Hebrews 8:13
"In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."


Jesus ended the Law of Moses for all His followers by His death on the cross.

Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Christ ended the Old covenant Law of Moses in order to begin His new covenant law of righteousness to everyone who believes in Him. To believe in Him means to obey His command to love God with our whole heart, mind, strength, and soul; and to love our neighbors as ourselves.


Luke 10:27
...."‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”


Jesus tells His listeners that He is Lord of the Sabbath and He may do what He wills about it. After His resurrection He willed that the Sabbath be made obsolete to make way for His own commemoration day which His followers call the Lord's day.


Mark 2:23-28
"Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”
25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”
27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”



Colossians 2:13-17
?And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

Paul tells his Gentile brethren to not listen to the Judaizers who tell them that they need to keep the Old Covenant dietary laws, feast days, and sabbaths. The Judaizers have no authority to insist that the Gentile converts keep them. Jesus' blood on the cross wiped out all these old covenant requirements.

Alawishis said:

Well your putting words in my mouth, but OK lets have a look at what you said. Is adultery and act of a loving spouse, or is it an act of selfish self gratification? Can I love my wife through adultery? It doesn't mean an adulterer cannot love their spouse ? No, of course not. Would you say that adultery is a sign of love? Would you question a persons love if they were an adulterer? Yes, I think any sane persons would.

Love does not = obedience. I hope you read what I said. Love includes obedience. If an adulterer continues in his or her ways love is not in their future. If love does not over come adultery, surely the adultery will overcome the love.

Please point out where I have quoted out of context? I would like to make corrections.

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The problem here is that if you insist that someone cannot sin and love (obedience) then nobody loves and nobody obeys according do what you are equating which means you might as well forget it all. I've seen marriages where there is never adultery but the spouses don't love each other and marriages where there has been adultery once but the couple still loves each other. Under the Law Israel constantly disobeyed God does that mean that they don't love God at all? Simply put we are all prone to sin but one has to conclude if it is our nature to sin or our nature to love in it all obedience (sinning less) doesn't mean you love more and often loving more doesn't mean you sin less but if it is loving God more it usually means less sinning as the act of loving avoids harm to others and that means less sin but the act of obedience doesn't mean in other fashions you aren't harming folks or loving them. A husband can by the law be not commit adultery but can ignore and mistreat his wife, but a husband that commits adultery one time can repent of it and be a most loving spouse. There are even husbands.. believe it or not that commit adultery many times that also love their wives better than those who never commit it at all.

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Act 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
.

BABerean2 said:

...

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

...

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

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You do realize, that Acts 15 substantiates the 7th Day Adventist position, or do you not?

Acts 15:20, is citing from the Law of Moses. James is citing from the Testimony itself:

Leviticus 7:26; Leviticus 17:12-14; Leviticus 19:26; Deuteronomy 12:16; Deuteronomy 12:23; Deuteronomy 15:23.

...we now come to the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, taking place years after Christ Jesus had bodily ascended.

The primary concern of this council was the matter of salvation in Christ Jesus, which was being distorted amongst both the Jewish-Christians and the Gentile-Christians, because that "certain" were proclaiming that in order to be saved in Christ Jesus, one must of necessity become partakers of the physical rite of 'circumcision', and also stated along with that physical 'circumcision' was that any, in order to saved/included in Salvation of Christ Jesus had then also to keep the myriad rites/rituals of 'law of Moses' [aka 'ceremonial law'], being 'the law' referenced also later therein:

"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved." [Acts 15:1]

Throughout Acts 15, these "certain" are so noted [being possibly some of that "great company of the priests were obedient to the faith" [Acts 6:7;p]; see also Acts 21:20]:

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses." [Acts 15:5]

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:" [Acts 15:24]

Paul and Barnabas already had begun to heavily dispute this notion:

"...therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them..." [Acts 15:2;p]

Paul was also later accused by the Jews that he was teaching to "forsake Moses", yet he clearly denies doing so in [Acts 28:17]:

"And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs." [Acts 21:21]

Therefore the Apostle Paul and Barnabas went unto Jerusalem and were greeted and "received" by the "church", along with the other "apostles" and "elders", who then gathered together:

"...they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders..." [Acts 15:4;p]

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter." [Acts 15:6]

And so even in the Council at Jerusalem, there was much disputing at first over this:

"...there had been much disputing..." [Acts 15:7;p]

Simon 'Peter' Barjona, after much disputing had gone on [he not being first, nor last to speak], raises his voice over all in the matter [yeah, that sounds like Peter...], seeing, how he had earlier received the vision [approved of by the Holy Spirit] in Acts 10 [reiterated in Acts 11] on the matter of going unto the Gentiles with the Gospel, before any physical 'circumcision', so that they were to enter in by the Grace of God through Faith, unto obedience unto Him:

"...Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." [Acts 15:7;p]

"And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us;" [Acts 15:8]

"And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith." [Acts 15:9]

And so, because of this example and witness of Peter, he conintues by saying,

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" [Acts 15:10]

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." [Acts 15:11]

Therefore, Peter an Apostle testifies of the Vision, the Holy Spirit testifies, the Gentiles that were present of that outpouring testify [Acts 10], as do those Jews which also believed that later heard the testimony of Peter concerning them [Acts 11]. Peter speaks of God knowing the "heart", that the Gentiles he was sent unto by God heard the "Gospel" and "believed" and so they too received of the "Holy Ghost", God "purifying their hearts by faith" through "grace of the LORD Jesus Christ", and so "they" also "shall be saved".

Paul and Barnabas then stand up and give their testimonies [the multitude giving silence to them], in all of the miracles that God had done among them in the Gentiles [Acts 14:9, etc.]:

"Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them." [Acts 15:12]

Therefore we now have more witnesses, two apostles, Paul and Barnabas [Acts 14:14], and again the Holy Spirit, and the Gentiles which believed and were healed [miraculously], etc.

Then James stands and concludes:

"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:" [Acts 15:13]

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name." [Acts 15:14]

"And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written," [Acts 15:15]

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:" [Acts 15:16]

"That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15:17]

"Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." [Acts 15:18]

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:" [Acts 15:19]

"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood." [Acts 15:20]

"For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." [Acts 15:21]

So from James, he begins by acknowledging what God had done in the Gentiles by visiting them by Vision and an Angel, and also while 'Simeon' [Peter] had went unto them as given of the vision he had been given [Acts 15:14], and then James follows by confirming it with the Prophets, "it is written" [Acts 15:15;p], quoting Amos 9:11-12 in Acts 15:16-17, which is what scripture says to do, to test all things by it [Isaiah 8:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21; 1 Corinthians 14:32; etc].

So, through God sending a vision and an angel, and moving upon the Gentiles, sending Peter, and also Paul and Barnabas, etc, by the very council held [Proverbs 11:14] and the scriptures [Psalms 119:24] all approved of by the Holy Spirit [Acts 15:28].

The entire council was not over the matter of Clean and Unclean dietary law at all [and nowhere directly mentioned or even contested or raised at all by anyone, Jewish-Christian or Gentile-Christian], but over the matter of Salvation in Christ Jesus. For some had taught that in order for the Gentiles to truly be saved and in Christ Jesus, they must be physically circumcised and also keep the law of Moses [being the ceremonial laws].

The very evidence of the events in Acts 10 and 11, and also with Paul and Barnabas reveal that it was not so. In fact, Paul later writes about this issue [as in many letters], because the issue continued to rear its head and wouldn't die, and was found everywhere he went [the idea, 'to be saved one must become physically circumcised'], that he says, "I would they were even cut off which trouble you." [Galatians 5:12], which means put out of the church, and elsewhere gives OT scriptures in direct proof of the position on the matter of Salvation in Christ Jesus, using Abram/Abraham as the central evidence, of being saved by Grace through Faith [Romans 4:1-25] unto obedience [Ephesians 2:8-10; Genesis 22:18, 26:5, like Abraham, even teaching his household after him; Genesis 18:19].

Notice, James clearly citing the OT, "... I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up." [Acts 15:16;p] and "That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles..." [Acts 15:17;p]. God was going to restore that which had been broken down, not tear down further, but rather build up again. The "residue [remnant] of men" and even the "Gentiles" were to "seek after the LORD" and HIS ways. This is direct prophetic evidence that those [especially the Gentiles] who were "turned to GOD" among these, were going to "seek" HIM [as prophecy foretold; Isaiah 56, etc] and want to know what He has said on the matter of so many other things [like Clean and Unclean [animals], Ten Commandments, Sabbath, etc...]. They were not looking to avoid these things, or undo, or cast away, etc, but by the New Covenant [and HIS better promises; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 36:23-31; Hebrews 8:8-10, 10:16], God was writing His Law upon their hearts, and they desired to know these things, and to please and live unto Him.

In fact, we can see that this council does not cover all the minutae, but merely the immediate matters at hand that were springing up and causing division over the matter of salvation in Christ Jesus.

If this council had covered every matter, there would have been no need for any further epistles to be written, for they could have simply referred to it, but as we can see by the NT, many more letters were indeed written, covering various issues that arose, and the continual nagging of those advocating the physical circumcision that seemed to plague Paul everywhere he went.

James concludes by saying, "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:" [Acts 15:19] and "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood." [Acts 15:20]

Was this end-all-be-all instruction that the Gentile converts were to do and carry out and abide by? No [for not a single word was said about murder, stealing, covetousness, honouring fathe/mother, etc], and in any case, if that really were all that the Gentile-Christians would have to do, that would be a salvation by works ethic. But while Peter spoke earlier of an unbearable "yoke" [Acts 15:10] [referring to physical circumcision and entering into the [old] "covenant"] which many incorrectly articulate as being the Ten Commandments, etc, notice that by the mouth of James, the council ["...seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord..." [Acts 15:25]] and signified by the HOLY SPIRIT, that those things were a "burden" and "necessary things" [Acts 15:28]. Each of those things were OT [Leviticus 7:26, 17:12-14, 19:26; Deuteronomy 12:16,23, 15:23] and in the writings of Moses, very specifically in the same passages as relating unto the Clean and Unclean [animals] even.

Why then did no one [not even James] mention all of the Clean and Unclean laws then right here? It was not the immediate issue, but if we will notice he does bring it/and other things into the picture in another manner:

"For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." [Acts 15:21]

The Council did not say nor imply, “it is necessary to do only these things and that's it” or “it is necessary to not do only these things and that's it”. It should be noted that the Council did not have to go into the detail of having them stay away from abominable meats, for there was no hint nor peep of a complaint or argument, made by anyone, Jew nor Gentile, made over the commandments pertaining to the Levitical and Deuteronomic Food Separation Laws.

This was because they were already widely understood to be important to God, but the Council made absolutely sure that they also understood to stay away completely from even those clean animals [meats] which were strangled still having blood in them, from eating blood itself and also from those which had been offered to idols [of which Paul addresses further in Romans, Corinthians, etc] and from fornication, which was a problem among the Gentiles.

He [James] basically told them, that they would continue to go to gathering [synagogue/church] every Sabbath Day [the 7th Day Sabbath of the Lord thy God; which by the way, this is direct evidence of its continuance and adherence by both Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christian, in the Jerusalem Council and approved as being correct], since they are "turned unto God", and then "Moses" [Pentatuech/Torah] would be there read, and they would learn so much more about the God who has come to save them [as can be seen in all of the Book of Acts was happening, whole cities coming together on the Sabbath Day, both Jew and Gentile, to hear the Word of God; Acts 13:14-16,42-44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4]. And if they had any doubts or questions concerning those basic things, or that which concerned health/sanitation, etc., they would eventually learn of all those things then, even upon the Clean and Unclean [animals] and so much more!

Just because Jesus died upon the Cross and later arose, does not nullify any of the health laws [1 Corinthians 10:31; 1 Peter 1:15-16; 3 John 1:2, etc]. It doesn't change needing to wash ones hands [and sanitation] when touching/dealing with dead things, or in dealing with diseases, or using the 'toilet', or in the matters of diet and health, in what may or may not be eaten, etc. Christ Jesus did not die to cleanse the cockroach, the pig, poisonous plants, etc. It would be foolish to think so, for taking those conclusions to their ultimate end some very dangerous doctrines appear.

Why can't I drink cyanide? Don't judge in matter of drink, eh? Or are there obvious rules involved?

Well, someone might say, "That would be suicide [murder of self.]".

So what? That's the 6th Commandment. A person cannot have their 'cake' and eat it too in saying in one instance it has been fulfilled, etc and in the next breath of air say it remains, thereby being unfulfilled. It either is or isn't a Commandment today to be kept by the people of God, and James says they all stand or fall together.

What difference in killing [murdering] yourself quickly, or slowly over 60 years by eating what God said not to eat? There is no difference except in length of time.

Today Christians the world over eat "blood" [of animal or man, today the vampire craze, even among Christians is serious] and "fat" and things "strangled" [not too many Christians eat 'kosher' meat, and not that 'kosher' is a perfect represetation of what Scripture says in the first place, but most markets slaughter the animal in its own blood/urine/feces and even cook them in it, to give it that 'flavor', etc] completely disregarding what they claim to uphold in Acts 15, yet completely ignoring it altogether for the vast majority. Then they eat the Unclean and the Abomination, all the while the knowledgeable Christian, Jew, Muslim and even in some cases atheists knows that those things are forbidden to be consumed by God in the very scriptures, that the majority of Christians proclaim to believe.

Why can't I eat humans? Don't judge in matter of eating, eh? God is not mocked...

Letters and people were then sent out with this conclusive decree that had been reached in Acts 15:22-27:

...the message being:

"For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;" [Acts 15:28]

"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." [Acts 15:29]

...and then "confirmed" by prophets in Acts 15:30-32.

Peter himself in Acts 10 and 11, confirmed his continued observance of the separational Food Laws and their importance to him.

Would he now place a defining difference between himself and the Gentile converts, saying that they could eat something that he himself would never dare eat?

No, for how then could they ever be one people under Christ Jesus?

It is not merely a matter of personal preference, or choice in food, for then Peter would be the one causing others to stumble, causing separation and the one who was weak.

It is a matter of the definition and commandment of God.

The Council's words actually strengthens the case of the Old Testament Levitical and Deuteronomic Food Laws for all Christians, calling them “necessary things”, and in no way weakens or negates them in any manner. It even strengthens the case of the observance of the 4th Commandment and the 7th Day Sabbath of the LORD God as well among professed Jews and seeking Gentiles who are drawn of Christ Jesus.

The reason the Council used the words “no greater burden than these necessary things” was because there was so much more that could have been said, in great detail, and laid upon them, but the Council chose to keep it simple for the time being and keep the decision focused upon the current arguments of physical circumcision and the Ritual Ceremonial Law of Moses.

The Leviticus and Deuteronomy Food Laws are not merely ceremonial/ritual as some say, in fact, the Lev/Deuteronomy giving of the Food Laws is not in the context of ceremony/ritual at all, but rather concern of holiness/sanitation [Leviticus11, 20; see also 1 Peter 1:16].

Acts24Fourteen said:

You do realize, that Acts 15 substantiates the 7th Day Adventist position, or do you not?[/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

In other words you are saying the text does not mean what it says...

You conclude it is really is about keeping the Sabbath, if you read between the lines...


Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I keep looking at the passage, but I have not been able to find the word Sabbath so far...