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If you don't accept common descent...

metherion

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Pardon, but i wish to ask a few questions.
You are basically right that evolution is not a religion, as such, but it is held with religious fervor by many.

Like who?


But while the underlying philosophy that drives most intelligent design proponents is Christianity, the underlying philosophy that drives evolution is atheism. And the Supreme Court has already ruled that atheism is a religion, because it is a belief about God.

I’m afraid you’re wrong. Evolution is no more driven by atheism than gravity or cells.
Furthermore, which court case showed that that was the Supreme Court’s opinion, I would like to look it up.
Furthermore, evolution does not promote atheism. Various field of science promote the idea of a young earth being wrong and evolution promotes gradual change of life. Not anything about God.


This is a new concept of law, introduced by the courts in the mid twentieth century. It has absolutely zero basis in the Constitution. When the courts introduced this concept, they reversed their own former position.

I thought that the ‘government shall not impede or promote’ religion was part of the establishment clause?

Furthermore, what former position? The Scopes trial from the 20s, or...?

Metherion
 
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Darkness27

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...Here we see that, as I had previously pointed out, evolutionists have relatively recently re-defined speciation in such a way that it becomes easy to demonstrate speciation. It is, by the way, not the way you have defined it. Speciation of the type required for evolution to proceed requires that the new species is unable to be cross bred (even artificially) with the parent species. But this definition was explored and rejected as the concept developed.

I wouln't fight the notion that the concept has changed, and to be honest I know there isn't a good definition of species today. But I don't see how we haven't observed, or inferred from the evidence, speciation. There are thousands upon thousands of different species on the Earth, did God create each one individually or did some of them evolve from other species?

Actually, my research was from published peer reviewed scientific literature, an exhaustive list of all mutations that had been observed in the fruit fly. And as I said, 90% of them were lethal, and 90% of them that were not lethal were crippling. This is simple fact, whether you care to believe it or not.

I am very skeptical of this claim. There are thousands of drosophilia species, are you saying that they all came about by special creation, or micro evolution with in 6K yrs. with a 90% mortality rate with mutations?

Your logic totally breaks down here. Mutations that are of neutral value can collect and be passed on to following generations. Individuals that receive lethal mutations cannot reproduce, and therefore cannot pass these mutations on.

How does it break down. The average human zygote has 128 mutations, by your studies around 115 of them should be lethal. And I'm saying that the majority of mutations have to be neutral in order for living things not to die out very quickly.

I referenced well accepted scientific understandings about the length of a DNA molecule and the spacing between the rungs of the DNA ladder. The rest is simple mathematics. If you cannot follow the mathematics, I am sorry, but it is fact, whether or not you understand it.

I think you're right, we are talking about different things. I'm talking about recording the bases in the genome of A, G, C, and T as binary code of 00, 01, 10, and 11. So for each base you need two bits of information. We have around 3 billion base pairs, two bits per base equals around 6 billion bits which translates to ruffly 750MB. I think you're using a slightly different method to ascertain the information in the genetic code. Seeing that I can't remember why we started talking about it in the first place, continuing on this point seems pointless to me. Unless you have a point to make through your 86GB genome I say we just drop it.

I never denied the process of natural selection. But to imagine that this is why dark colored peoples "developed" in Africa and fair haired people "developed" in northern regions is to project your theories. We have historical data, not theories, as to the ancient movements of ethnic groups. We know, for instance, that the western Europeans migrated to that region from the steppe regions of the Ukraine, and that the dark skinned peoples migrated to Africa from what is now western Turkey.

So why do people have different skin tones based on their geographical region and how much sunshine they get in that region?

There are so many that it would take a whole book to present it. The earliest that I remember at the moment was the Piltdown man.

As far as I know Piltdown man was the only one to get the best of the scientific community; all other frauds never got the best of the scientific community.

This was followed by Java man

Isn't that just another name for H. Erectus, which we have a few real skeletons of.

and numerous others such as the (now well known to be) false diagrams of how embryos supposedly traced their evolutionary descent as they grew.

Are these Haeckel's drawings? If I remember correctly not all of them were false, and he was found guilty among his peers in the 1800's. And when we finally got good enough equipment to look at these embryos we found that for the most part Heckle was correct. And we don't use his drawing's anymore in biology class, now they show us real pictures of embryos.

All of these frauds continued to be presented in textbooks long after they had been exposed. Within my personal experience, I have know more than one university professor of biology to stress "proofs" of evolution to beginning students, while explaining to advanced students that these supposed "proofs" are not factual. The truth is, that every argument for evolution is debunked by leading experts in the field to which that argument applies.

What are these "proofs" of evolution you speak of? I have not heard of these "proofs" before, and neither have several people I've talked to that had biology around the same time you have. I can assure you that no "proofs" are being taught in modern biology class.

This is pure nonsense. A creator could create many different life forms as easily as he could create one.

So how does this work? Does God specially create every single organism through special creation? Or does He make X number of organisms and allows them to evolve, whether it is micro or macro it doesn't matter.

You accept natural selection, and you obviously accept DNA and mutations. You accept nearly all the things that holds evolution together but you don't accept evolution. Why?

I quote again from the same website I quoted from above:

3.0 The Context of Reports of Observed Speciations

The literature on observed speciations events is not well organized...

Thus, your own proponents clearly state that most of the purported cases of observed speciation were "inferred," rather that observed. I tend to believe that the word most would read all if the writer were entirely truthful, but I will not press the point at this time.

Well it is kind of hard to see speciation happening in organisms with long generations like other mammals. But you don't have to witness something to prove that it must have happened beyond reasonable doubt.

Well I have studied them, and I can assure you that every dating method applicable to living things except one includes at least one unprovable assumption. The only one that is logically rigorous is tree ring dating, and that can be extended back only a few thousand years.

We are somewhat talking about this on the other thread so unless you want to talk about it here I say we continue this point on the other one.
 
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marktheblake

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So why do people have different skin tones based on their geographical region and how much sunshine they get in that region?

because when a white honkey like me ended up migrating to a place like africa i would have got sunburned to buggary all the time in my skimpy little fig leaf suit, and couldn't have been much of a contributer to society. My kind therefore would not have lasted very long at all. What sort of woman would want to marry the useless red guy and have his kids. I either died or got out of that place.
 
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Darkness27

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because when a white honkey like me ended up migrating to a place like africa i would have got sunburned to buggary all the time in my skimpy little fig leaf suit, and couldn't have been much of a contributer to society. My kind therefore would not have lasted very long at all. What sort of woman would want to marry the useless red guy and have his kids. I either died or got out of that place.

Fine, but why do we see no deviation of dark skin people into climates like Europe where the sun doesn't shine as intense? While fair skinned people like you and me wouldn't have a chance in Africa, dark skinned people will survive other climates.
 
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Biblewriter

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Pardon, but i wish to ask a few questions.


Like who?


In my (by the way considerable) experience with evolutionists generally, I have seen that they typically get very angry when their theory is challenged. This is a typical reaction associated with religious fervor, not with intellectual persuasion.

I’m afraid you’re wrong. Evolution is no more driven by atheism than gravity or cells.
The basic assumption claimed for this branch of science is that there could have been no supernatural intervention in the development of the multitude of life forms we observe today. This is altogether as unscientific as the assumption that God created it all. But it is the essence of atheism. True science is agnostic in regard to the supernatural. It neither relies upon it nor denies it. It simply admits that it cannot know about it. But true science does not deny the supernatural. Only atheism does that.

Furthermore, which court case showed that that was the Supreme Court’s opinion, I would like to look it up.
I know this as a fact, but would have to look up the exact case.

Furthermore, evolution does not promote atheism. Various field of science promote the idea of a young earth being wrong and evolution promotes gradual change of life. Not anything about God.
I know you theistic evolutionists say this, but I reject it a illogical.


I thought that the ‘government shall not impede or promote’ religion was part of the establishment clause?
This is a common misconception. The "establishment of religion," as understood in the time of the founding of this nation, was a formal adaption of an official religion. There is absolutely nothing in the establishment clause that prohibits promotion of religion.

Furthermore, what former position? The Scopes trial from the 20s, or...?

Metherion
The Scopes trial never went to the Supreme Court, as far as I know.

But numerous early Supreme Court decisions stated that the united States was a Christian nation. An example is Vidal v. Girard, 43 U.S. (2 How.) 127 (1844)

In this case, a man by the name of Giriard had willed two million dollars for the foundation of a college in Philadelphia. This was to be only for its foundation, and afterward it was to be supported by taxes. But he said
" I enjoin and require that no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever, shall ever hold or exercise any station or duty whatever in the said college; nor shall any such person ever be admitted for any purpose, or as a visitor, within the premises appropriated to the purposes of the said college."
Many found this provision unacceptable, while others found the sum of two million dollars (at that time a very great sum) too large to refuse. It went all the way to the Supreme Court. The court ruled ruled that this provision did not make this bequest illegal. But their stated reason for this conclusion was because:

" The objection is that the foundation of the college upon the principles and exclusions prescribed by the testator, is derogatory and hostile to the Christian religion, and so is void, as being against the common law and public policy of Pennsylvania...

" we are compelled to admit that Christianity is part of the common law of the state, yet it is so in this qualified sense, that its divine origin and truth are admitted, and therefore it is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance or injury of the public. Such was the doctrine of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania in Updegraaf v. the Commonwealth, 11 Serg. and Rawle, 394.

" It is not necessary for us, however, to consider what would be the legal effect of a devise in Pennsylvania for the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of Judaism, Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country; and therefore must be made out by clear and indisputable proof. Remote inferences, or possible results, or speculative tendencies, are not to be drawn or adopted for such purposes. There must be plain, positive, and express provisions, demonstrating not only that Christianity is not to be taught; but that it is impugned or repudiated.

" Now in the present case, there is no pretense to say that any such positive or express provisions exist, or are even shadowed forth in the will. The testator does not say that Christianity shall not be taught in the college. But only that no ecclesiastic of any sect shall hold or exercise any station or duty in the college...

" The objection itself assumes the proposition that Christianity is not to be taught, because ecclesiastics are not to be instructors or officers. But this is by no means a necessary or legitimate inference from the premises. Why may not laymen instruct in the general principles of Christianity as well as ecclesiastics...

" Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the college - its general precepts expounded, its evidences explained, and its glorious principles of morality inculcated? What is there to prevent a work, not sectarian, upon the general evidences of Christianity from from being read and taught in the college by lay-teachers? certainly there is nothing in the will, that proscribes such studies."
Now what is important to notice here is that the court found that this provision was legal because, and specifically because, it allowed the teaching of Christianity. It only forbade its being taught by an ecclesiastic.

So the Supreme Court in this case based its decision on its recognition that Christianity is the law of the land. This is only one of many such early Supreme Court decisions.
 
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marktheblake

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Fine, but why do we see no deviation of dark skin people into climates like Europe where the sun doesn't shine as intense?

Perhaps the dark skinned people didnt like it there, or just plain didnt go. Seems obvious to me, that in ancient times at least, a pale skin person would have more health problems in a hot sunny africa, then a dark skiinned person in cold, dark England.

I also understand that Vitamin b or d needs sunlight to be produced, and dark skinned people need more sun to produce it.
 
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Biblewriter

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How does it break down. The average human zygote has 128 mutations, by your studies around 115 of them should be lethal. And I'm saying that the majority of mutations have to be neutral in order for living things not to die out very quickly.

The average human zygote does not have 128 mutations. If that were the case, it would be a rare event if a human survived to birth. The average human zygote receives 128 mutations from its ancestors. These are those mutations that are not so destructive that they seriously impede the reproductions of the individuals of the individuals that receive them.

As far as I know Piltdown man was the only one to get the best of the scientific community; all other frauds never got the best of the scientific community.

This is simply incorrect.

Isn't that just another name for H. Erectus, which we have a few real skeletons of.

I honestly do not remember. All I remember is that Java man was widely hailed. It consisted of a simeon-like jawbone that was linked to a homonoid femur. But upon close questioning the finder admitted that he had found these two bone fragments two years
apart and twenty feet apart in a live stream bed, and that he had also found other possible bone matches in that same area and had no proof that these two particular bones came from the same creature.

Are these Haeckel's drawings? If I remember correctly not all of them were false, and he was found guilty among his peers in the 1800's. And when we finally got good enough equipment to look at these embryos we found that for the most part Heckle was correct. And we don't use his drawing's anymore in biology class, now they show us real pictures of embryos.

The proof that even one of them was false is enough to prove what we I said. But the basic theory he was advancing, the theory of recapitulation, was still being taught in general Biology textbooks in the 6os, when I was a university student, even though the advanced embryology textbooks we used taught that "this was outside of the facts."

What are these "proofs" of evolution you speak of? I have not heard of these "proofs" before, and neither have several people I've talked to that had biology around the same time you have. I can assure you that no "proofs" are being taught in modern biology class.


This strikes me as odd. If there are no "proofs" being taught, where do you get the notion that the TOE is established fact?
 
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marktheblake

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The proof that even one of them was false is enough to prove what we I said. But the basic theory he was advancing, the theory of recapitulation, was still being taught in general Biology textbooks in the 6os, when I was a university student, even though the advanced embryology textbooks we used taught that "this was outside of the facts."

Haeckels drawings were so proudly displayed in the Sydney Museums extensive evolution exhibit about 5 years ago. I was gobsmacked, because ultimately that proved to me that evolution was the absolute truth beyond any doubt, because there it was. Science proved it and science doesnt lie.

Imagine what I thought when a few months later, I discover that Haeckels drawings were a well known fraud.

So how many others are impacted by this lie? Or is it a case of the theory being correct so it doesnt matter if the evidence is a lie.
 
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Darkness27

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The average human zygote does not have 128 mutations. If that were the case, it would be a rare event if a human survived to birth. The average human zygote receives 128 mutations from its ancestors. These are those mutations that are not so destructive that they seriously impede the reproductions of the individuals of the individuals that receive them.

From PubMed: "Our data suggest an overall mutation rate of 2.14×10-8 per base per generation, or 128 mutations per human zygote."

Although I'm skeptical to your 90% lethal mutation rate, I can see it being understood as correct in your senior year. However, science has advanced since then and it is no longer what the research shows. The current data suggests that the average human zygote has 128 mutations, and the average person accumulates 30 more mutations throughout their lifetime.

This is simply incorrect.

I simply don't know of any other case that got the best of the scientific community. I'm aware of Nebraska man from an extinct pigs tooth, and some crazy person that sowed a bunch of animals together and presented it to some scientist, but in both cases the scientific community rejected them as nothing more than fakes after the first analysis of the content.

I honestly do not remember. All I remember is that Java man was widely hailed. It consisted of a simeon-like jawbone that was linked to a homonoid femur. But upon close questioning the finder admitted that he had found these two bone fragments two years
apart and twenty feet apart in a live stream bed, and that he had also found other possible bone matches in that same area and had no proof that these two particular bones came from the same creature.

From wiki: "Java Man is the name given to fossils discovered in 1891 at Trinil on the banks of the Solo River in Central Java, Indonesia, one of the first known specimens of Homo erectus."

It looks like Java man's bones might not be from the same specimen, but numerous discoveries of other erectus specimens from Asia and Africa quickly show that H. erectus and Java man are not frauds.

The proof that even one of them was false is enough to prove what we I said. But the basic theory he was advancing, the theory of recapitulation, was still being taught in general Biology textbooks in the 6os, when I was a university student, even though the advanced embryology textbooks we used taught that "this was outside of the facts."

I'm not versed in the biological teachings of the 60's, as it was a few decades before I was born. Just for giggles I looked up Haeckel and recapitulation in three college biology textbooks I found laying around and couldn't find anything. If it was being taught as fact back then it obviously has stopped.

This strikes me as odd. If there are no "proofs" being taught, where do you get the notion that the TOE is established fact?

"Proofs" are used in mathematics. Evolution is a scientific theory and no theory ever becomes a fact, theories explain facts. What kind of "proofs" were taught 40 years ago to show that the theory of evolution is a fact?
 
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metherion

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In my (by the way considerable) experience with evolutionists generally, I have seen that they typically get very angry when their theory is challenged. This is a typical reaction associated with religious fervor, not with intellectual persuasion.
I would hazard a guess that it is more frustration than religious fervor. For me at least it has much much more to do with the method. The main methods of most evolution attacks are just that: attacks, no discourse. Based off of lies, misquotes, quote mines, misunderstanding, and whatnot repeated ad infinitum from the likes of AiG and Kent Hovind that can be SHOWN to be wrong, lying, and quote mining. Add to that intellectually bankrupt productions such as Ben Stein’s expelled that are BASED on academic dishonestly and mischaracterizations such as ‘darwinism doesn’t explain gravity’ and ‘science leads to killing people’ while one scientific process feeds something like 1/2 or 1/3 the people on earth, well, I’m rather outraged myself. Not because I hold evolution like a dogma, but because of the blatant immorality of those who claim to challenge it from the ‘high moral ground’ and dishonor, disrespect, and defame all of science.

Hopefully that provides some insight.

The basic assumption claimed for this branch of science is that there could have been no supernatural intervention in the development of the multitude of life forms we observe today. This is altogether as unscientific as the assumption that God created it all. But it is the essence of atheism. True science is agnostic in regard to the supernatural. It neither relies upon it nor denies it. It simply admits that it cannot know about it. But true science does not deny the supernatural. Only atheism does that.

Few mistakes here. The base claim is not that ‘nothing supernatural happened’. The base claim is ‘this is what the evidence shows’. True science is agnostic. “We cannot measure God so we cannot include anything he does/did or even assume He did anything.” Not ‘He didn’t do anything, or He doesn’t exist’. However, that IS what evolution says. Evolution says ‘We can’t measure God. But here is what biology, palentology, biochemistry, and so on evidence happening.’

EVOLUTION DOES NOT BASE FROM “No god or gods did it all’. Evolution bases off of ‘this is what the evidence shows, let’s see where it goes.” After all, Darwin OBSERVED the finches first off, not went ‘Hm, i disbelieve God, let’s deny Him and go from there’.


I know this as a fact, but would have to look up the exact case.
Please do. :)

I know you theistic evolutionists say this, but I reject it a illogical.
What part is illogical? It seems to me as if you are saying ‘if religion says anything about something, then if science makes a counterclaim, science must be intruding on and denying religion.’ However, then why is heliocentrism not religious just like evolution? What about germ theory? After all, germ theory says demons aren’t responsible for illness. So that’s religious too.

No, sometimes religion says things about science. When science shows it wrong, it doesn’t mean science is denying religion, it means religion overstepped its bounds.

This is a common misconception. The "establishment of religion," as understood in the time of the founding of this nation, was a formal adaption of an official religion. There is absolutely nothing in the establishment clause that prohibits promotion of religion.
So allowing religion dressed up as bad science that SCIENCE even says is bad science into classrooms and forcing students to learn it ISN”T starting the official establishment as a religion?

The Scopes trial never went to the Supreme Court, as far as I know.
Yes, as far as i know that is correct. But neither did the Dover trial. Which I thought you were referring to. The Dover trial set a below-Supreme Court precedence. I thought that was the elvel of rpecedent you were referring to, hence, the Scopes trial.

So the Supreme Court in this case based its decision on its recognition that Christianity is the law of the land. This is only one of many such early Supreme Court decisions.
I am no constitutional lawyer, but it seems to be you may have that flipped on its head.

It seems to be saying that ‘it is permissible to support an institution where no religious officials are permitted to hold any rank, office, job, etc with taxes because it does not forbid the teaching of a religion, so the state is not supporting with taxes an institution that is expressly anti-religious’.

I would like to make two more points.

First, it seems like with this paragraph”
we are compelled to admit that Christianity is part of the common law of the state, yet it is so in this qualified sense, that its divine origin and truth are admitted, and therefore it is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance or injury of the public. Such was the doctrine of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania in Updegraaf v. the Commonwealth, 11 Serg. and Rawle, 394.
it seems that they are saying the above decision was not illegal because it did not blaspheme Christianity, which would be ‘to the annoyance or injury of the public’.

Furthermore, I would like the cite the Treaty of Tripoli. The laws of a state may be based on the religion, but the US government itself is not.

BUT. BUT beyond all that, my main problem with such things is that they are BAD SCIENCE. ID is bad science, YEC is bad science. Both are religiously based. But that’s not what matters, what matters is the science. So keep them out of the science classrooms. If they were GOOD science, they would get in anyways. But they are not. The fact that they need to resort to courts and deception should be a big warning sign.

Also, to marktheblake:
So how many others are impacted by this lie? Or is it a case of the theory being correct so it doesnt matter if the evidence is a lie.
Are they still used? Or are they well known to be frauds now? Oh wait. They are known as frauds. So we have things like ultrasonic imaging and whatnot that let us know they were wrong and can replace them.


Metherion
 
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Biblewriter

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From PubMed: "Our data suggest an overall mutation rate of 2.14×10-8 per base per generation, or 128 mutations per human zygote."

Although I'm skeptical to your 90% lethal mutation rate, I can see it being understood as correct in your senior year. However, science has advanced since then and it is no longer what the research shows. The current data suggests that the average human zygote has 128 mutations, and the average person accumulates 30 more mutations throughout their lifetime.

You have a right to be skeptical about the 90% data, as about any other claim made by anyone. I have the same right, and am exceedingly skeptical of any claim that begins with the words, "Our data suggests..."

That is not wording typical of a report of some kind of a statistical analysis. It is wording typical of claims that lack a solid factual basis.
 
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marktheblake

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Are they still used? Or are they well known to be frauds now? Oh wait. They are known as frauds.
Obviously if Haeckels drawings are are displayed in an evolution exhibit, then they are still being used.
 
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Biblewriter

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I would hazard a guess that it is more frustration than religious fervor. For me at least it has much much more to do with the method. The main methods of most evolution attacks are just that: attacks, no discourse. Based off of lies, misquotes, quote mines, misunderstanding, and whatnot repeated ad infinitum from the likes of AiG and Kent Hovind that can be SHOWN to be wrong, lying, and quote mining. Add to that intellectually bankrupt productions such as Ben Stein’s expelled that are BASED on academic dishonestly and mischaracterizations such as ‘darwinism doesn’t explain gravity’ and ‘science leads to killing people’ while one scientific process feeds something like 1/2 or 1/3 the people on earth, well, I’m rather outraged myself. Not because I hold evolution like a dogma, but because of the blatant immorality of those who claim to challenge it from the ‘high moral ground’ and dishonor, disrespect, and defame all of science.

Hopefully that provides some insight.

It certainly provides insight into the workings of your mind.

Few mistakes here. The base claim is not that ‘nothing supernatural happened’. The base claim is ‘this is what the evidence shows’. True science is agnostic. “We cannot measure God so we cannot include anything he does/did or even assume He did anything.” Not ‘He didn’t do anything, or He doesn’t exist’. However, that IS what evolution says. Evolution says ‘We can’t measure God. But here is what biology, palentology, biochemistry, and so on evidence happening.’

EVOLUTION DOES NOT BASE FROM “No god or gods did it all’. Evolution bases off of ‘this is what the evidence shows, let’s see where it goes.” After all, Darwin OBSERVED the finches first off, not went ‘Hm, i disbelieve God, let’s deny Him and go from there’.

You are entirely mistaken here. The basic assumption is uniformity of process. This is an assumption that nothing supernatural happened.

Please do. :)

The many places where this has been determined are traced in an appellate court decision, Kaufman v. McCaughtry,http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/tmp/LF11DOFK.pdf 419 F.3d 678 (8th Cir. 2005).

4 We address his claim under the Free Exercise Clause first. An inmate retains the right to exercise his religious beliefs in prison. Tarpley v. Allen County, 312 F.3d 895, 898 (7th Cir.2002). The problem here was that the prison officials did not treat atheism as a "religion," perhaps in keeping with Kaufman's own insistence that it is the antithesis of religion. But whether atheism is a "religion" for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat different question than whether its adherents believe in a supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or have a sacred Scripture. The Supreme Court has said that a religion, for purposes of the First Amendment, is distinct from a "way of life," even if that way of life is inspired by philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns. See Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 215-16, 92 S.Ct. 1526, 32 L.Ed.2d 15 (1972). A religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being (or beings, for polytheistic faiths), see Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 495 & n. 11, 81 S.Ct. 1680, 6 L.Ed.2d 982 (1961); Malnak v. Yogi, 592 F.2d 197, 200-15 (3d Cir.1979) (Adams, J., concurring); Theriault v. Silber, 547 F.2d 1279, 1281 (5th Cir.1977) (per curiam), nor must it be a mainstream faith, see Thomas v. Review Bd., 450 U.S. 707, 714, 101 S.Ct. 1425, 67 L.Ed.2d 624 (1981); Lindell v. McCallum, 352 F.3d 1107, 1110 (7th Cir.2003).

5 Without venturing too far into the realm of the philosophical, we have suggested in the past that when a person sincerely holds beliefs dealing with issues of "ultimate concern" that for her occupy a "place parallel to that filled by . . . God in traditionally religious persons," those beliefs represent her religion. Fleischfresser v. Dirs. of Sch. Dist. 200, 15 F.3d 680, 688 n. 5 (7th Cir.1994) (internal citation and quotation omitted); see also Welsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333, 340, 90 S.Ct. 1792, 26 L.Ed.2d 308 (1970); United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163, 184-88, 85 S.Ct. 850, 13 L.Ed.2d 733 (1965). We have already indicated that atheism may be considered, in this specialized sense, a religion. See Reed v. Great Lakes Cos., 330 F.3d 931, 934 (7th Cir.2003) ("If we think of religion as taking a position on divinity, then atheism is indeed a form of religion."). Kaufman claims that his atheist beliefs play a central role in his life, and the defendants do not dispute that his beliefs are deeply and sincerely held.

6 The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a "religion" for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., ___ U.S. ___, 125 S.Ct. 2722, ___ L.Ed.2d ___ (2005). The Establishment Clause itself says only that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," but the Court understands the reference to religion to include what it often calls "nonreligion." In McCreary County, it described the touchstone of Establishment Clause analysis as "the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion." Id. at *10 (internal quotations omitted). As the Court put it in Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 105 S.Ct. 2479, 86 L.Ed.2d 29 (1985):

7 At one time it was thought that this right [referring to the right to choose one's own creed] merely proscribed the preference of one Christian sect over another, but would not require equal respect for the conscience of the infidel, the atheist, or the adherent of a non-Christian faith such as Islam or Judaism. But when the underlying principle has been examined in the crucible of litigation, the Court has unambiguously concluded that the individual freedom of conscience protected by the First Amendment embraces the right to select any religious faith or none at all.

8 Id. at 52-53, 105 S.Ct. 2479. In keeping with this idea, the Court has adopted a broad definition of "religion" that includes non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as theistic ones. Thus, in Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488, 81 S.Ct. 1680, 6 L.Ed.2d 982, it said that a state cannot "pass laws or impose requirements which aid all religions as against non-believers, and neither can [it] aid those religions based on a belief in the existence of God as against those religions founded on different beliefs." Id. at 495, 81 S.Ct. 1680. Indeed, Torcaso specifically included "Secular Humanism" as an example of a religion. Id. at 495 n. 11, 81 S.Ct. 1680.


What part is illogical? It seems to me as if you are saying ‘if religion says anything about something, then if science makes a counterclaim, science must be intruding on and denying religion.’ However, then why is heliocentrism not religious just like evolution? What about germ theory? After all, germ theory says demons aren’t responsible for illness. So that’s religious too.

No, sometimes religion says things about science. When science shows it wrong, it doesn’t mean science is denying religion, it means religion overstepped its bounds.

You are falsely equating a belief that the Bible is true with a religious belief.

So allowing religion dressed up as bad science that SCIENCE even says is bad science into classrooms and forcing students to learn it ISN”T starting the official establishment as a religion?

Yes, as far as i know that is correct. But neither did the Dover trial. Which I thought you were referring to. The Dover trial set a below-Supreme Court precedence. I thought that was the elvel of rpecedent you were referring to, hence, the Scopes trial.


I am no constitutional lawyer, but it seems to be you may have that flipped on its head.

It seems to be saying that ‘it is permissible to support an institution where no religious officials are permitted to hold any rank, office, job, etc with taxes because it does not forbid the teaching of a religion, so the state is not supporting with taxes an institution that is expressly anti-religious’.

I would like to make two more points.

First, it seems like with this paragraph”

it seems that they are saying the above decision was not illegal because it did not blaspheme Christianity, which would be ‘to the annoyance or injury of the public’.

Furthermore, I would like the cite the Treaty of Tripoli. The laws of a state may be based on the religion, but the US government itself is not.

The legal objection was that the proposed college was illegal because it was anti-Christian. The court recognized that an anti-Christian school, such as one promoting Judasim or Deism, would be illegal. But said that this school was legal because it was not patently anti-christian. And in the course of the ruling, the court said, "we are compelled to admit that Christianity is part of the common law of the state."

BUT. BUT beyond all that, my main problem with such things is that they are BAD SCIENCE. ID is bad science, YEC is bad science. Both are religiously based. But that’s not what matters, what matters is the science. So keep them out of the science classrooms. If they were GOOD science, they would get in anyways. But they are not. The fact that they need to resort to courts and deception should be a big warning sign.


Your prejudice is showing here. There is a great deal of scientific evidence to challenge the theory of evolution. The fact that you choose to ignore this in inconsequential.

Also, to marktheblake:

Are they still used? Or are they well known to be frauds now? Oh wait. They are known as frauds. So we have things like ultrasonic imaging and whatnot that let us know they were wrong and can replace them.


Metherion

You did not even notice what she said. They were being presented as "proof" of evolution only five years ago, even though they have long been known to be fraudulent. This is typical of the selective noticing of facts so exceedingly common among evolutionists. Anyone pointing out facts that evolutionists are uncomfortable with is simply dismissed as unscientific, fraudulent, or ignorant, as you did with the documentary "Expelled."
 
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Darkness27

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You have a right to be skeptical about the 90% data, as about any other claim made by anyone. I have the same right, and am exceedingly skeptical of any claim that begins with the words, "Our data suggests..."

That is not wording typical of a report of some kind of a statistical analysis. It is wording typical of claims that lack a solid factual basis.

This is typical wording of real statistical and scientific claims. Being a person who claims to have a degree in science I thought that you would have understood this, clearly I was wrong. In the field of science and statistics, very rarely do you see publications where findings are declared to be truth, but are reported in a very hesitant manner because of the nature of the field. We learn new things all the time, often this means challenging what we thought we knew to be correct. People that don't understand how science works can take advantage of it and say how little they know and scientists are all full of it because of the hesitant nature of their claims. However, nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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SoulReason

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...how do you explain human chromosome 2?

evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm
T2 only goes back to a hominid ancestor - can you trace such genetic evidence back to the original protocell? Well, thats a bit hard now isn't it? Yet it is assumed!
Lets take it a little step at a time and find evidence for the ancestors of the hominids, and we'll step back from there. Hopefully, the "common" thread will be in evidence through each "step".
SR.
 
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metherion

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It certainly provides insight into the workings of your mind
Well, I hope that’s good enough. :) I know I’m not the only one that feels this way, but I have no studies, no surveys, no statistical samplings to extrapolate, just me and the name of one guy i graduated college with that feel that way. So I’m not unique, but I don’t pretend to claim that everyone feels that way. *shrug*

You are entirely mistaken here. The basic assumption is uniformity of process. This is an assumption that nothing supernatural happened.

And so does gravity, so does paleontology, so does... need I go on? Remember, science cannot deal with the supernatural. It does not know if it exists, and it cannot measure the supernatural. Therefore, saying ‘a miracle happened here’ is something that science CANNOT DO.

Furthermore, the burden of proof is on the people who claim it must have been a miracle or physical laws must have changed or whatever.

insert Supreme Court excerpt here.
Very cool. Thanks! Then again, it kind of makes sense though, even if atheism weren’t technically a ‘religion’ because actively taking the stance ‘there is no God’ is pretty much against all the other religions.

You are falsely equating a belief that the Bible is true with a religious belief.

Wait wait wait wait wait. Ouch. The cognitive dissonance, it burns.
Please, show me where exactly this logic goes wrong.
The Bible is a holy book.
Christianity is a religion.
The Bible is the holy book of Christianity.
Therefore, a belief in the Bible is a belief in the holy book of a religion.
A belief in the holy book of a religion is a religious belief.
(your statement, slightly paraphrased)
A belief that the Bible is true is not a religious belief.

I know where the logic fault is.

Your prejudice is showing here. There is a great deal of scientific evidence to challenge the theory of evolution. The fact that you choose to ignore this in inconsequential.

Such as? Please to show me. Between my own research, the collegiate training in the sciences, and my access to online and collegiate libraries, I can be capable of at least understanding such evidences against it.

You did not even notice what she said. They were being presented as "proof" of evolution only five years ago, even though they have long been known to be fraudulent. This is typical of the selective noticing of facts so exceedingly common among evolutionists. Anyone pointing out facts that evolutionists are uncomfortable with is simply dismissed as unscientific, fraudulent, or ignorant, as you did with the documentary "Expelled."
I did perhaps make an assumption. Between the phrases ‘extensive evolutionary exhibit’, ‘museum’, and the lack of context I will admit I did ASSUME such things would be labelled as known to be incorrect but as part of the history of evolution.

As for my treatment of the ‘documentary’, I have little to no respect for people who:
Do not give the full stories about cases they claim show prejudice and claim to cover.
Know so little about what they are trying to attack that they claim evolution (‘darwinism’) is wrong because it doesn’t explain such things as gravity.
Think abiogenesis is ‘lightning striking a mud puddle’.
Constantly say science leads to killing people with the example of Hitler while even a cursory overview of Mein Kamph will show Hitler clearly thought he was doing GOD’S work.
Lured the scientists into interview under false pretenses, claiming a different movie name and a different purpose in the interviews, and then edited them in a blatant show of quote mining and academic dishonestly.
I’m sorry, that IS unscientific and fraudulent.
Furthermore, if an idea is to get time in science class it must pass scientific muster. If it were actual science, it would get itself in and not need the courts. And apparently I must’ve missed the huge conspiracy meetings for the worldwide anti-God science conspiracy that is the next step in why it wouldn’t be let in.



The legal objection was that the proposed college was illegal because it was anti-Christian.
Okay, noted.

he court recognized that an anti-Christian school, such as one promoting Judasim or Deism, would be illegal.
No, it did not.

I used the following website:VIDAL V. GIRARD'S EXECUTORS, 43 U. S. 127 (1844) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider what would be the legal effect of a devise in Pennsylvania for the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of Judaism, or Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country, and therefore it must be made out by clear
Page 43 U. S. 199
and indisputable proof. Remote inferences, or possible results, or speculative tendencies, are not to be drawn or adopted for such purposes. There must be plain, positive, and express provisions, demonstrating not only that Christianity is not to be taught, but that it is to be impugned or repudiated.
They specifically stated they did NOT have to inquire into the legality of such an institution, and it would have to CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY revile and deny Christianity. The support of such an institution with tax money WOULD be illegal, according to this decision.
Furthermore,
pg 43 US 198 said:
It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania.
So this is only true of one state. Not the US.
Also, what about the TREATY OF TRIPOLI? Just wondering. Yes, Christianity may be part of the common law of one state, but as I have shown above, to be illegal, a Judaic or Deist or what have you school would have to openly revile Christianity to be illegal.

I would also like to expand upon something else you said, about the “Christianity being part of the common law”.
page 43 US198 said:
It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania. But this proposition is to be received with its appropriate qualifications, and in connection with the bill of rights of that state, as found in its constitution of government. The Constitution of 1790 (and the like provision will, in substance, be found in the Constitution of 1776, and in the existing Constitution of 1838), expressly declares,
"That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences; no man can of right be compelled to attend, erect, or support any place of worship, or to maintain any ministry against his consent; no human authority can, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience, and no preference shall ever be given by law to any religious establishment or modes of worship."
Language more comprehensive for the complete protection of every variety of religious opinion could scarcely be used, and it must have been intended to extend equally to all sects, whether they believed in Christianity or not, and whether they were Jews or infidels. So that we are compelled to admit that although Christianity be a part of the common law of the state, yet it is so in this qualified sense, that its divine origin and truth are admitted, and therefore it is not to be maliciously and openly reviled and blasphemed against, to the annoyance of believers or the injury of the public.
If we take a look at a few more paragraphs besides just the one, we see that it talks about how limited that phrase is. It seems to me, a layperson in the area of Constitutional law, that when it is talking about the limited way that Christianity is part of the common law, it seems that it just means Christianity’s divine origin and truth are recognized so that Christianity is recognized as a religion and therefore cannot be blasphemed against with tax money.

So,
The court recognized that an anti-Christian school, such as one promoting Judasim or Deism, would be illegal.
is only HALF right. It is not the Judaisticness (yes, i made that word up) or Deisticness (that one too) but the Anti-Christianness (that makes three :p) that would make it illegal. As what i quoted shows.

Metherion
 
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marktheblake

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I did perhaps make an assumption. Between the phrases ‘extensive evolutionary exhibit’, ‘museum’, and the lack of context I will admit I did ASSUME such things would be labelled as known to be incorrect but as part of the history of evolution.

Incorrect assumption. I made it clear that Haeckels drawings were presented as an exhibit for Evolution, and that alone had a significant impact on me in regard to doubting Gods existence at that time.

It is plainly ridiculous that a museum would present a hoax amongst everything else as an example of a hoax. I spent more time studying those little foetuses than anything else in the 2000m2 odd of the exhibit, in other words i read every word of the description. No mention of the hoax.

thankyou.
 
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Biblewriter

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This is typical wording of real statistical and scientific claims. Being a person who claims to have a degree in science I thought that you would have understood this, clearly I was wrong. In the field of science and statistics, very rarely do you see publications where findings are declared to be truth, but are reported in a very hesitant manner because of the nature of the field. We learn new things all the time, often this means challenging what we thought we knew to be correct. People that don't understand how science works can take advantage of it and say how little they know and scientists are all full of it because of the hesitant nature of their claims. However, nothing could be further from the truth.

This is simply not factual. In real science, facts are simply facts, and are reported as such.

But this is indeed typical of the pseudo-science that is used to shore up the claims of evolution. These are presented in a very hesitant manner because they are not "facts," but surmises based on extrapolations of the observed data. The observed data are indeed facts, if they were correctly observed. But the surmises based on these facts are not facts at all. They are surmises, and they may be correct or they may not be correct. So they must be presented in a hesitant manner because it is very possible that someone might very soon discover actual facts that disprove the supposed "facts," which were not facts at all.
 
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Biblewriter

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I used the following website:VIDAL V. GIRARD'S EXECUTORS, 43 U. S. 127 (1844) -- US Supreme Court Cases from Justia & Oyez
Originally Posted by Supreme Court’s decision, page 43 US199 It is unnecessary for us, however, to consider what would be the legal effect of a devise in Pennsylvania for the establishment of a school or college, for the propagation of Judaism, or Deism, or any other form of infidelity. Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country, and therefore it must be made out by clear
Page 43 U. S. 199
and indisputable proof. Remote inferences, or possible results, or speculative tendencies, are not to be drawn or adopted for such purposes. There must be plain, positive, and express provisions, demonstrating not only that Christianity is not to be taught, but that it is to be impugned or repudiate
http://supreme.justia.com/us/43/127/case.html

They specifically stated they did NOT have to inquire into the legality of such an institution, and it would have to CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY revile and deny Christianity. The support of such an institution with tax money WOULD be illegal, according to this decision.

You need to read more carefully. They did not say that such an institution would have to "CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY revile and deny Christianity" before it would be illegal. They said that any institution would have to "CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY revile and deny Christianity" to be illegal, and used "a school or college, for the propagation of Judaism, or Deism, or any other form of infidelity" an an example of such an institution. But then they said that "Such a case is not to be presumed to exist in a Christian country," and used that statement as the basis of their conclusion that a claim that a proposed institution would be illegal would have to be based on a demonstration that it would "CLEARLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY revile and deny Christianity."

Furthermore,
So this is only true of one state. Not the US.
Also, what about the TREATY OF TRIPOLI? Just wondering. Yes, Christianity may be part of the common law of one state, but as I have shown above, to be illegal, a Judaic or Deist or what have you school would have to openly revile Christianity to be illegal.

I would also like to expand upon something else you said, about the “Christianity being part of the common law”.

If we take a look at a few more paragraphs besides just the one, we see that it talks about how limited that phrase is. It seems to me, a layperson in the area of Constitutional law, that when it is talking about the limited way that Christianity is part of the common law, it seems that it just means Christianity’s divine origin and truth are recognized so that Christianity is recognized as a religion and therefore cannot be blasphemed against with tax money.

So,

is only HALF right. It is not the Judaisticness (yes, i made that word up) or Deisticness (that one too) but the Anti-Christianness (that makes three :p) that would make it illegal. As what i quoted shows.

Metherion[/quote]
 
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Biblewriter

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Your prejudice is showing here. There is a great deal of scientific evidence to challenge the theory of evolution. The fact that you choose to ignore this in inconsequential.
Such as? Please to show me. Between my own research, the collegiate training in the sciences, and my access to online and collegiate libraries, I can be capable of at least understanding such evidences against it.

You are typical of evolutionists generally. You are so certain that your beloved theory is correct that you have never even paid any attention to the many scientific claims made by those that reject the theory.

Now I realize that many of these claims are actually incorrect, and that fervor for their subject has led many to exaggerate. But this is true on both sides of the debate. To truly understand any contentious issue, it is necessary to actually pay attention to what both sides are saying. In most cases the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes.

Now in the case of evolution, the fossil record actually shows something entirely different from what is almost universally claimed among evolutionists. It most absolutely does not show gradual change. It shows a long series of stable ecosystems, each of which suddenly appeared, flourished virtually unchanged for a very long time, and then suddenly disappeared, only to be equally suddenly replaced by a different stable ecosystem.

Without even one exception, every professional geologist I have discussed this with has at first denied it, and then after some discussion has admitted that the facts he personally knew indeed demonstrated this to be correct.

Pressure about this from creationists finally led to an imaginative solution from the evolutionist camp in the formulation of the theory of punctuated equilibrium. Without a shred of evidence to back it up except the assumption that evolution must have occurred, they concluded that an ecosystem evolves rapidly until it reaches a state of equilibrium, upon which it becomes stable until something disturbs that equilibrium. This was presented with the deeply scientific assumption of "some unknown force" as the disturbing factor!

When I was a student, there were many claims being made about how the presence of vestigial organs are evidence for evolution. But gradually, science began to discover actual uses for all these supposedly useless organs.

The theory that an embryo traces its evolutionary history as it develops was still being taught in the biology textbooks at that time, even though embryologists had realized it was incorrect. And as martheblake has pointed out, this is still being presented as evidence for evolution, even though it has been thoroughly discredited.

Such is true of absolutely every item of evidence for evolution that was being presented in the 1960's and I am not aware of even one new piece of real evidence that has been presented since that time.

I am aware of many allegations about observations of evolution it action, but I have not seen even one such allegation that was not based on the comparatively recent redefinition of evolution as a change in the frequency of alleles in a population.

Using this definition, it is easy to demonstrate evolution in action. But this is based on an assumption that evolution is indeed a fact. I have not personally studied every modern claim of having observed the rise of beneficial mutations, but at least most of these claims are known to be based in inferences, not on provable data. But without ironclad proof that beneficial mutations actually exist, even the possibility of evolution being factual remains to be demonstrated.
 
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