IF you could create your own mom....?

[MamaZ]

This has strayed away from the Apostolic Teaching. For this is not recorded in any of the scripture. OT nor NT.. Mary was a mere handmaiden of the Lord awaiting the promise of the savior.. Whom was prophecied about.. She was born into the same sin stained world by the same means as any other person.. Only one was born of the Seed of God.. This is His ONLY begotton Son.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

All those of my mother....

Loving, forgiving, humble, funny, full of faith, repentant, caring, trusting, wise, funny, good hugs, all questions welcomed (well, most), funny, loving, nurturing, humble, repentant, funny, good cook.





.

 

[sunlover1]

What qualities would you give her?

Like CJ, I'd give her all of the qualities my mom had...
Sweet, cheerful, loving, considerate, generous, humble,
thoughtful, self sacrificing, dependable, easy to talk to,
smart, calm, soothing, .. all that and so much more
wrapped in a pretty package as well.
I cry when I thank God for mom, He is so wonderful
to have given me the best mom in the world.

Used.
hmmmmm.

That's not saying much for how much God loves us, if you suggest He uses us.
It doesnt make sense to save us if we are nothing more than useful critters.

Do you think this song is off then?
When I sing it, it's right from the heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUSH4IW2hM

You are limiting God.
You are suggesting, imho, that He cannot make anyone sinless.

Is this how i am to understand?

He can and did.

 

[DArceri]

Is Mary 'clothed' with the righteousness of God or not? If she was born sinless and remained sinless, then the blood of Christ that covers us sinners is not needed or meant for her. Right?!! Thus, for those who believe she is the 'woman clothed with the sun' in Rev 12, what does this 'clothing' stand for?

.

 

[katherine2001]

Oh brother.. God Used a human woman so Christ could become flesh..

He didn't "use" her. She voluntarily chose to conceive the Son of God in the flesh. I've seen people write that Mary didn't have to say "yes" because God could have "used" her anyway, since He is all-powerful. Certainly, He has the power to do anything He wants, but He never forces people to do things against their will. God does respect our free will.

 

[katherine2001]

This has strayed away from the Apostolic Teaching. For this is not recorded in any of the scripture. OT nor NT.. Mary was a mere handmaiden of the Lord awaiting the promise of the savior.. Whom was prophecied about.. She was born into the same sin stained world by the same means as any other person.. Only one was born of the Seed of God.. This is His ONLY begotton Son.

But don't you believe that God would have wanted His Son to inherit the very best human nature that He could have? It took God many centuries to create a woman holy enough to give Him His humanity? God already knew who was going to do this before creation. That was His plan for Mary's life, though He would have respected her will if she had chosen not to do it.

God has a unique plan for each one of us, and we each have a role that nobody else can fill.

 

[DArceri]

But don't you believe that God would have wanted His Son to inherit the very best human nature that He could have?

By definition, human nature means we are born in Adam (ie. corrupted). All humans are 'born in Adam' (with a sin nature) because we are from the 'seed of Adam' (ie. we have human fathers and mothers). Mary was born in the 'seed of Adam' also.....However, Jesus came from the Holy Spirit and the 'seed of woman' (Gen 3), which seems strange because women don't have seeds, men do. But this theologically could explain why He was not born with a sin nature. And it was His God nature that kept Him from sinning. Anybody have thoughts about Jesus coming from the 'seed of woman'?

It took God many centuries to create a woman holy enough to give Him His humanity?

Centuries?..I hope we all agree He could create anything in a heartbeat with just His spoken word. All God needs throughout the O.T. and N.T. (and now) is the Spirit of God indwelling in His chosen vessels to accomplish His sovereign purposes.

 

[simonthezealot]

Do you think this song is off then?

nada, toma tomalo.

 

[MamaZ]

He didn't "use" her. She voluntarily chose to conceive the Son of God in the flesh. I've seen people write that Mary didn't have to say "yes" because God could have "used" her anyway, since He is all-powerful. Certainly, He has the power to do anything He wants, but He never forces people to do things against their will. God does respect our free will.

I am sure that Jonah disagrees with you.

 

[Kristos]

By definition, human nature means we are born in Adam (ie. corrupted). All humans are 'born in Adam' (with a sin nature) because we are from the 'seed of Adam' (ie. we have human fathers and mothers). Mary was born in the 'seed of Adam' also.....However, Jesus came from the Holy Spirit and the 'seed of woman' (Gen 3), which seems strange because women don't have seeds, men do. But this theologically could explain why He was not born with a sin nature. And it was His God nature that kept Him from sinning. Anybody have thoughts about Jesus coming from the 'seed of woman'?

Looks like your trying to work yourself out of corner "Born with a sin nature" - how does that happen? I would say sin is unnatural, so how could we be sin by nature? If Christ's humanity was sin by nature, but just "kept" from sinner against his nature by his divinity, then how are we redeemed? This wouldn't seem to accomplish anything...

 

[DArceri]

Looks like your trying to work yourself out of corner "Born with a sin nature" - how does that happen? I would say sin is unnatural, so how could we be sin by nature? If Christ's humanity was sin by nature, but just "kept" from sinner against his nature by his divinity, then how are we redeemed? This wouldn't seem to accomplish anything...

There is no box. Yes we are born with a sin nature ie. the inability to not sin....I was asking about a theological thought on the 'seed of woman'. But getting back to corruption of our souls, yes we are born corrupt, which BTW I believe your orthodox church teaches also. But as far as theology of sin goes, I lean toward Augustine's teaching that we are born in Adam (corrupt), we are spiritually separated from God (unable to to communicate with His Spirit), and thus we are unable not to sin (can't discern His will). Augustine said pre-fall, Adam had free choice in that he had both the 'ability to sin' and the 'ability to not sin' and unfortuanately he chose the former. Note, once we are 'in-Christ', ie. 'born-again' with our 'new nature', we now are spiritually enabled and reunited with God and thus have the 'ability to not sin' again. The only difference between us now and Adam pre-fall is the Blood of the Cross of Christ has put a claim on us. He has purchased us and claims us righteous in His eyes and thus He will sanctify us throughout our trials and tribulations. Count it all joy. Now, getting back to Jesus, since Jesus was born God in the flesh, He obviously was spiritually connected to the FATHER AT ALL TIMES, He knew the Father's will, AND THUS He knew Truth (and was/is Truth) and never had the urge to sin.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My mother makes better apple pie that your mother!

 

[WarriorAngel]

This has strayed away from the Apostolic Teaching. For this is not recorded in any of the scripture. OT nor NT.. Mary was a mere handmaiden of the Lord awaiting the promise of the savior.. Whom was prophecied about.. She was born into the same sin stained world by the same means as any other person.. Only one was born of the Seed of God.. This is His ONLY begotton Son.

Um, Luke wrote in Greek...see post #12.
The Greek word for the greeting is difficult to translate into English.

Apostolic teaching hasnt stopped in 2000 years and we were not suddenly enlightened in 1900 + years.
It has continued and continues that Mary was not born with nor applied to being sinful.
She was unlike the fallen, she was like the first couple - without sin and remained without sin...unlike Eve.

God made Adam and Eve without sin, so its not impossible for God to do as He so chooses.

He created His own Mother - whom He would share a body with and become part of.
She didnt give in to sin, and she wasn't given sin at her conception.

Like CJ, I'd give her all of the qualities my mom had...
Sweet, cheerful, loving, considerate, generous, humble,
thoughtful, self sacrificing, dependable, easy to talk to,
smart, calm, soothing, .. all that and so much more
wrapped in a pretty package as well.
I cry when I thank God for mom, He is so wonderful
to have given me the best mom in the world.


Do you think this song is off then?
When I sing it, it's right from the heart.




He can and did.

Yes, He can and yes He did...
He can do whatever He so chooses, and choosing to create His Mother, He did so without giving her sin.

Is Mary 'clothed' with the righteousness of God or not? If she was born sinless and remained sinless, then the blood of Christ that covers us sinners is not needed or meant for her. Right?!! Thus, for those who believe she is the 'woman clothed with the sun' in Rev 12, what does this 'clothing' stand for?

.

The clothing stands for [if you want terms of symbolism] that her Son already pre saved her for the relationship He would intimately take on, such as being within her, being a part of her humanity, and nurturing from her... etc etc

Notice how she was hidden for 3 1/2 years?
That was the time she was hidden in the desert [Egypt] with Jesus.

So yea it is her..and if you notice satan could NOT touch her either. So she was without sin...he no doubt would have liked to have had her, but she was protected.

Apocalypse 12
1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:
*This is metaphoric for the Church as well as Mary.
The 12 would be the 12 Apostles. And being clothed with the Son, meant she had been presaved-preserved..
2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

*The stars he drew from Heaven were the murdered children....while Harod waited for the King to be born.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, that there they should feed her a thousand two hundred sixty days. 7 And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: 8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: because the accuser of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night.

He didn't "use" her. She voluntarily chose to conceive the Son of God in the flesh. I've seen people write that Mary didn't have to say "yes" because God could have "used" her anyway, since He is all-powerful. Certainly, He has the power to do anything He wants, but He never forces people to do things against their will. God does respect our free will.

By definition, human nature means we are born in Adam (ie. corrupted). All humans are 'born in Adam' (with a sin nature) because we are from the 'seed of Adam' (ie. we have human fathers and mothers). Mary was born in the 'seed of Adam' also.....However, Jesus came from the Holy Spirit and the 'seed of woman' (Gen 3), which seems strange because women don't have seeds, men do. But this theologically could explain why He was not born with a sin nature. And it was His God nature that kept Him from sinning. Anybody have thoughts about Jesus coming from the 'seed of woman'?

Centuries?..I hope we all agree He could create anything in a heartbeat with just His spoken word. All God needs throughout the O.T. and N.T. (and now) is the Spirit of God indwelling in His chosen vessels to accomplish His sovereign purposes.

By definition, Adam was created without sin.
Adam took on sin, that doesnt mean God is incapable of creating anyone without sin.

I dont think we need to limit Him... to limit Him puts Him in our playing field.

AND i am glad you took note that Jesus was born of the seed of the woman. Which again, shows us Jesus took on Mary - not Adam. She gave birth to Christ - without sin and being without sin - her humanity was preserved.

This line up shows us that altho Mary was conceived sinless in a sinner's womb, her Son however; was conceived in a sinless womb, and was sinless.

Think about why the distinction was made.
For if Mary carried sin, then Jesus would have been born from Adam's seed as well.... Being that it says a seed of a woman, it shows us the distinction of the seeds.

Whereas Adam's seeds are all fallen, Mary's seed was set apart.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Think about why the distinction was made.
For if Mary carried sin, then Jesus would have been born from Adam's seed as well.... Being that it says a seed of a woman, it shows us the distinction of the seeds.

Whereas Adam's seeds are all fallen, Mary's seed was set apart.

Additionally this is said in Genesis 3:15.

The woman AND her seed would have enmity with the serpent [satan]
Enmity is a complete seperation - to be at war with - to be on converse ends.

So yea, she was at enmity with evil...she was without sin...AND her seed... Jesus.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Apostolic teaching hasnt stopped in 2000 years and we were not suddenly enlightened in 1900 + years.
It has continued and continues that Mary was not born with nor applied to being sinful.

Your statement requires 3 things ....

1. Identify which of the Apostles taught this; when and where.

2. That the Immaculate Conception of Mary has been taught as such since BEFORE 108 AD

3. It has been taught continuously since at least 108 AD (I suspect universally - meaning in the EO, OO and everywhere else). Therefore, you'd need to show it's universal teaching before 108 AD and then for every year thereafter.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

God made Adam and Eve without sin, so its not impossible for God to do as He so chooses.

Since it's not impossible for God to do as He so chooses, does that make it dogma that Luther was immaculately conceived? Me? You? Pope Benedict? Joseph Smith?

Is it possible for God to make 10 zillion little fuzzy creatures on the Moon of Endor? If so, it such therefore dogma?








.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Your statement requires 3 things ....

1. Identify which of the Apostles taught this; when and where.

2. That the Immaculate Conception of Mary has been taught as such since BEFORE 108 AD

3. It has been taught continuously since at least 108 AD (I suspect universally - meaning in the EO, OO and everywhere else). Therefore, you'd need to show it's universal teaching before 108 AD and then for every year thereafter.
Thank you!
Pax

- Josiah

I also would like to be shown anything before 108Ad concerning that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Your statement requires 3 things ....

1. Identify which of the Apostles taught this; when and where.

2. That the Immaculate Conception of Mary has been taught as such since BEFORE 108 AD

3. It has been taught continuously since at least 108 AD (I suspect universally - meaning in the EO, OO and everywhere else). Therefore, you'd need to show it's universal teaching before 108 AD and then for every year thereafter.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




.

sHOW ME WHERE THE TERM tRINITY IS USED, THE hYPOSTATIC uNION, AND THE iNCARNATION WAS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED BY THE apOSTLES OR THOSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER PRIOR TO 108 ad.

O rats - my caps were locked.

Since it's not impossible for God to do as He so chooses, does that make it dogma that Luther was immaculately conceived? Me? You? Pope Benedict? Joseph Smith?

Is it possible for God to make 10 zillion little fuzzy creatures on the Moon of Endor? If so, it such therefore dogma?








.

Show me one single person on that list who would conceive Christ in their womb, then we will discuss the merit of being sinless for that cause.

I also would like to be shown anything before 108Ad concerning that.

Hey I would love to see the afore mentioned [my list] also shown prior to 108 AD!

Where is it? Besides Tradition - ahem - years later.

 

[Kristos]

What qualities would you give her?

I don't like mothers.

 

[Thekla]

what about the "Mothers of Invention"

(Frank Zappa's band)