If you cannot believe the genesis account....

[caravelair]

So you see something that GOD created.......you figured out how to predict with it.....and THEN youre going to give your theory the credit for it ?!?


hey, i figured the pattern of the seasons here in ohio......does that mean I get to take credit for them too?

it's got nothing to do with taking credit. something being evidence for a theory doesn't mean the theory put it there. are you even listening to anything i'm saying? do you have to totally dodge everything i say? if the theory predicts it, and it exists, it is evidence for the theory.

 

[aeroz19]

So not everything in the Bible is literal then. Common sense tells us that plants were not created before the sun so I guess we shouldn't interpret Genesis 1 as literal after all.

Where'd you get this? From some atheist propaganda website? Please, please, please read Genesis before posting like you have.



Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

There are a number of verses that say the the earth is fixed. Do we still refer to the earth as fixed and immobile in common usage? It was certainly common sense that the earth didn't move until science showed otherwise.

In your first paragrraph, you said that using common sense is better than using the Bible in arriving at the correct answer. Now you are saying that common sense leads to the incorrect conclusion. This is why I don't put my complete trust in human logic, reasoning, and common sense; even logic is subject to change.



What do you know, that sounds like something Spock would say! I'm a Trekkie fan



Anyway, no, the Bible does not state that the earth is fixed. With what you have previously said, I wonder what you'll say now. Reading on...

1 Chronicles

16:30: "Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

You have no understanding of the verse at all. For one thing, it says, the earth shall be stable, not that it is stable. Now I gotta look it up...hold on...ok, I found it, and read it in context.



1 Chronicles 16: "Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

32 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein.

33 Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

35 And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

36 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the LORD."



When I read this in context, I'm getting an environment of awe and praise out of it. It isn't saying the earth is being still relative to the sun; it's talking about the people. "The world shall also be stable, and shall not be moved." Yeah, I think it's talking about the people on the earth. Many times throughout the Bible, the phrase "the world" refers to people.



I'm not entirely sure that this particular interpretation is accurate, however. Lets see what other Christians think it means. Please post, Christians!

There are other verses in which the sun moves

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof." (I added the bold)

Yup, the sun rises and sets daily.

Is it common sense that the sun makes a circuit around the earth daily? It used to be common sense but common sense has changed hasn't it? Is it common sense that the sun heats the entire universe? It used to be common sense but now this verses is interpreted as poetry, except by people like Malcolm Bowden, a geocentrists who writes for TrueOrigins.

You totally misinterpreted the verse.

Now how is it that there was morning and evening in the days before the sun was created?

the frumious Bandersnatch

God created light and darkness as separate entities before He created the sun and other celestial bodies.

 

[Follower of Christ]

it's got nothing to do with taking credit. something being evidence for a theory doesn't mean the theory put it there. are you even listening to anything i'm saying? do you have to totally dodge everything i say? if the theory predicts it, and it exists, it is evidence for the theory.

Hmmmm.....
ok.......lemme see here......

I have my own theory......

Im calling it ''theory of Foc''

In my theory Ive been testing weather patterns over the United States for the last 10 years.....

Here are my predictions based on my observations...

-In January in Ohio it will snow.
-February will be really cold but the snow will begin to let up.
-in thru march the cold will start to subside
-in april I predict the rains will come...
-then for may I predict that the Flowers will start to bloom....

My theory isnt finished yet tho, but its open to peer review as it stands currently...



I can predict all i want with with my observations and they will be right time and again as each year unfolds........but that does not mean that GOD did not put those things in motion......

All we have is observation of what God has created....
Then it moves right on to interpretation of what is observed....
In your understanding, you arrive at evolution...
In mine, I see how it fits into my bible as literally as possible

 

[Data]

Hmmmm.....
ok.......lemme see here......

I have my own theory......

Im calling it ''theory of Foc''

In my theory Ive been testing weather patterns over the United States for the last 10 years.....

Here are my predictions based on my observations...

-In January in Ohio it will snow.
-February will be really cold but the snow will begin to let up.
-in thru march the cold will start to subside
-in april I predict the rains will come...
-then for may I predict that the Flowers will start to bloom....

My theory isnt finished yet tho, but its open to peer review as it stands currently...

I can predict all i want with with my observations and they will be right time and again as each year unfolds........but that does not mean that GOD did not put those things in motion......

You actually do need a theory for why seasons happen first. I don't think you understand this.

A suitable theory would be that the earth rotates around the sun on a slant, so different parts of the world get different amounts of heat and light.

 

[Data]

Its also evidence for a common designer......
"lets see......this car works guys.....mebe we should use some of these ideas in the REST of them"

Hrmm, this inefficient axle from an ancient carriage should do perfectly in doing nothing as soon as I disable it, make sure it never gets used, and _then_ put it in, multiple times.

What a great idea!

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Where'd you get this? From some atheist propaganda website? Please, please, please read Genesis before posting like you have.

Are you talking to me? I assume so. If you are referring to the Bible's obvious geocentricity I got it from the following Young Earth Creationist Websites

There is the Fixed Earth Site

Creationist Astronomer Gerardus Bouw's Official Geocentricity site.

and the web site of Malcolm Bowden who also has pages on the TrueOrigin archive. Duane, the debate king, Gish wrote a forward for one of Bowden's recent books.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.




In your first paragrraph, you said that using common sense is better than using the Bible in arriving at the correct answer. Now you are saying that common sense leads to the incorrect conclusion. This is why I don't put my complete trust in human logic, reasoning, and common sense; even logic is subject to change.

I was referring to someone else's claim that we should use common sense to interpret Bible verses when they have a clear meaning IIRC. The common sense interpretion of many Bible verses is the earth is fixed and that the sun goes around it daily.

What do you know, that sounds like something Spock would say! I'm a Trekkie fan

Anyway, no, the Bible does not state that the earth is fixed. With what you have previously said, I wonder what you'll say now. Reading on...

Yes it does and it says it several times. Read the Fixed Earth Site for details from a Young Earth Creationist.

You have no understanding of the verse at all. For one thing, it says, the earth shall be stable, not that it is stable. Now I gotta look it up...hold on...ok, I found it, and read it in context.

Are you saying it wasn't fixed then but eventually it will be?

1 Chronicles 16: "Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.

32 Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof: let the fields rejoice, and all that is therein.

33 Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD, because he cometh to judge the earth.

34 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

35 And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

36 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the LORD."


When I read this in context, I'm getting an environment of awe and praise out of it. It isn't saying the earth is being still relative to the sun; it's talking about the people. "The world shall also be stable, and shall not be moved." Yeah, I think it's talking about the people on the earth. Many times throughout the Bible, the phrase "the world" refers to people.

The context you are relying on is your knowledge of modern science. Without that you would never question its clear meaning that the earth doesn't move at all.

I'm not entirely sure that this particular interpretation is accurate, however. Lets see what other Christians think it means. Please post, Christians!

You're a little late and you are forgetting these verses.

Psalm 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."

Psalm 104:5: " Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Yup, the sun rises and sets daily.

Right and it heats the whole universe.

You totally misinterpreted the verse.

You only say that because of your knowledge of modern science. The interpretation of the Sun moving in a circuit around the earth is so obviously geocentric that most Literalists resort to calling the verse poetry.

God created light and darkness as separate entities before He created the sun and other celestial bodies.

And how did that make morning and evening before the sun? Where did the light come from? Did He create light on the way from the stars? After all the nearest are at least light years away so their light wouldn't have gotten here during the "morning and evening" of the first day. Even so that wouldn't make morning and evening since the stars are all around.

Did he create a big nearby point light source and start the earth spinning to have morning and evening and then uncreate that light source before He created the sun? Did he bathe everything in a light that He blinked on and off every 24 hrs. to have morning and evening before He created the sun?

the frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Nathan Poe]

Hmmmm.....
ok.......lemme see here......

I have my own theory......

Im calling it ''theory of Foc''

In my theory Ive been testing weather patterns over the United States for the last 10 years.....

Here are my predictions based on my observations...

-In January in Ohio it will snow.
-February will be really cold but the snow will begin to let up.
-in thru march the cold will start to subside
-in april I predict the rains will come...
-then for may I predict that the Flowers will start to bloom....

My theory isnt finished yet tho, but its open to peer review as it stands currently...

Ok, you've just predicted the changing seasons.

Perhaps you should have first checked to see if someone hadn't already come up with this theory, or something remarkably similar...

It can be quite embarrassing to invent something that's already been invented.

I can predict all i want with with my observations and they will be right time and again as each year unfolds........but that does not mean that GOD did not put those things in motion......

That's absolutely right! It doesn't mean that God did or did not do it, and since you'll never be able to test whether God did or didn't do it, you'll never know.

However, if He did do it, now you've spotted a pattern in how He does it, and you have a pretty good idea how He's going to keep on doing it unless something changes it. Not bad for a few years' work, eh FoC?

All we have is observation of what God has created....

Not so, FoC, we have observed a pattern in how he has created. And until and unless he decides to change his pattern, we can predict (not 100%, but not random guessing either) where that pattern's going to lead next.

Again, not bad for a few years work!

Then it moves right on to interpretation of what is observed....
In your understanding, you arrive at evolution...

If by interpretation, you mean that we've spotted the pattern, then you're right.

In mine, I see how it fits into my bible as literally as possible

Except that evolution fits the pattern. Biblical Literalism does not.

 

[caravelair]

Hmmmm.....
ok.......lemme see here......

I have my own theory......

Im calling it ''theory of Foc''

In my theory Ive been testing weather patterns over the United States for the last 10 years.....

Here are my predictions based on my observations...

-In January in Ohio it will snow.
-February will be really cold but the snow will begin to let up.
-in thru march the cold will start to subside
-in april I predict the rains will come...
-then for may I predict that the Flowers will start to bloom....

My theory isnt finished yet tho, but its open to peer review as it stands currently...

but what you're missing is that such a theory should explain WHY these changes will take place - what is causing them. your "theory" makes no such explanation, which means it's not really a theory at all, just an observation. evolution, on the other hand explains WHY we see many things in biology. furthermore, your theory makes predictions only about things we already know to be true from experience. more powerful evidence comes when your theory predicts something we do not yet know to be true. for example, general relativity predicts that the path of light will be bent by gravity. previously we believed light would not be affected by gravity, and we had never seen light being affected by gravity. when we discovered that light is indeed affected by gravity, that was powerful evidence for general relativity. because it could have easily turned out that light was not affected by gravity. there is much of the same sort of evidence in favor of evolution, though i'm quite sure you don't give a damn about what evidence there is. your mind is already made up, and there's no argument or question you can't dodge!

I can predict all i want with with my observations and they will be right time and again as each year unfolds........but that does not mean that GOD did not put those things in motion......

just as if evolution is correct, it says nothing about god. god could still have put evolution "in motion".

All we have is observation of what God has created....
Then it moves right on to interpretation of what is observed....
In your understanding, you arrive at evolution...
In mine, I see how it fits into my bible as literally as possible

no, we have observation, but we also have a theory that makes predictions. if we observe what is predicted, then that is evidence for the theory. if we do not observe what is predicted, then that theory will be falsified. it has nothing to do with interpretation! or rather, interpretation is reduced to a bare minimum. you seem to be once again dodging the issues, so answer me these questions:

does evolution predict a certain pattern of biogeography? is that the pattern of biogeography we see?

if you answer yes to those, then biogeography must be evidence for evolution. if you answer no, please explain why. if you dodge the question again, i am going to scream.

it is irrelevant whether you find this evidence convincing or not. you know, it's okay to admit that something is evidence, and still not be convinced of what the evidence points to. it's also irrelevant whether you think there is another explanation for this (though i'd love to hear how you can explain biogeography without evolution). if it's evidence, it's evidence, and no, it's not a matter of interpretation. if you disagree, please show me how i am misinterpreting (a) the fact that we see a certain pattern of biogeography, or (b) the fact that evolution predicts this pattern.

 

[aeroz19]

Are you talking to me? I assume so. If you are referring to the Bible's obvious geocentricity I got it from the following Young Earth Creationist Websites

There is the Fixed Earth Site

I read the page and some other links of the main site. Just amazing. The Bible is not pro-geocentric. I think the writer is a nut.

Creationist Astronomer Gerardus Bouw's Official Geocentricity site.

...and the web site of Malcolm Bowden who also has pages on the TrueOrigin archive. Duane, the debate king, Gish wrote a forward for one of Bowden's recent books.

sigh more of the same

Are you saying it wasn't fixed then but eventually it will be?

Yup. See below

You're a little late and you are forgetting these verses.

Psalm 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."


Psalm 104:5: " Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."

Two of these verses say that the Lord reigns, then they say the world cannot be moved. I think these two ideas are connected. Maybe it’s referencing the millennial reign, when Jesus will reign with a rod of iron, causing sin to be no more.

The Lord reignethàthe world shall be establisahed and shall not be movedàthe people will be judged. The first and second events both occur with the second coming of Christ; that’s most likely how the phrase “the earth shall not be moved” should be taken. Maybe the earth will no longer rotate.

Bingo, I’ve got it. I think I’ve figured it out. Lemme find a verse…

Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

That’s it! These verses DO indicate that the earth will be fixed! But not right now though. The earth will not rotate during the Millennial Reign of Christ!

The whole earth will no longer need the sun as a source of light; the glory of God will provide light! I guess that if the earth will have no need of the sun then, so earth will stop rotating around it. Maybe the sun won’t even exist anymore. That’s kinda sad, though, as I am rather fond of it. I initially was an astronomy major, but I have switched to Aerospace Engineering.


NOTE: I am not sure if this is the correct interpretation. I'd have to do some more research on it. But it seems pretty likely to be correct at the moment.

You just helped me do research and know my Bible better! Thanks!

Right and it heats the whole universe.

Where are you getting that?

You only say that because of your knowledge of modern science. The interpretation of the Sun moving in a circuit around the earth is so obviously geocentric that most Literalists resort to calling the verse poetry.

See above. You didn’t do real Bible research; you did a lot of research into proving you were right and Bible people are wrong. You went and found tons of Creationist data to prove your own views; you did not take the Bible and actually study it independently…or have you?

Remember when I asked you to "please please please" read Genesis? You instead gave me links to Creationist websites. You still haven't read Genesis open-mindedly yet. Or have you? Have you actually read all of Genesis with an open mind, or just to look for verses to prove you're right and that people like me are wrong?

And how did that make morning and evening before the sun? Where did the light come from? Did He create light on the way from the stars? After all the nearest are at least light years away so their light wouldn't have gotten here during the "morning and evening" of the first day. Even so that wouldn't make morning and evening since the stars are all around.

Did he create a big nearby point light source and start the earth spinning to have morning and evening and then uncreate that light source before He created the sun? Did he bathe everything in a light that He blinked on and off every 24 hrs. to have morning and evening before He created the sun?

the frumious Bandersnatch

He didn’t create any light source before the sun; His glory provided light, as it will again when He ushers in the new Heaven and the new Earth at His second coming.

Hey, come on, Christians, what do you think about this stuff? Post!

 

[Arikay]

Then the church must have been full of crazy people in the past. You do know the bible was used to defend the geocentric model against the evil heliocentric model a couple hundred years ago, right?

 

[aeroz19]

Then the church must have been full of crazy people in the past. You do know the bible was used to defend the geocentric model against the evil heliocentric model a couple hundred years ago, right?

I'll bet it was used that way by some Christians. The Bible is the most misused book ever. I'll bet I misuse it too. We are imperfect; we're human. We make mistakes.

As for the church being full of crazy people...well, you know, the church used to murder people for reading the Bible. However, one of the Ten Commandments says not to commit murder. So, yeah, there will always be crazy people.

But so what? Just because there's crazy people doesn't falsify or invalidate the Bible's truths.

 

[Arikay]

Actually it wasn't just people who used the bible to commit murder but it was a belief held by many theologians at the time. They must have all been crazy. (they were all creationists too )

Of course it doesn't invalidate the bibles truths, but it does show that the bible is open to heavy interpretation and this isn't the best source to get scientific knowledge from.

I'll bet it was used that way by some Christians. The Bible is the most misused book ever. I'll bet I misuse it too. We are imperfect; we're human. We make mistakes.

As for the church being full of crazy people...well, you know, the church used to murder people for reading the Bible. However, one of the Ten Commandments says not to commit murder. So, yeah, there will always be crazy people.

But so what? Just because there's crazy people doesn't falsify or invalidate the Bible's truths.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I read the page and some other links of the main site. Just amazing. The Bible is not pro-geocentric. I think the writer is a nut.

The Bible is so clearly geocentric that modern literalist such as yourself who don't believe in geocentrism have to go through the sort of gryrations you are demonstrating here to desperately try to deny its clear geocentrism.

sigh more of the same

Yup. See below



Two of these verses say that the Lord reigns, then they say the world cannot be moved. I think these two ideas are connected. Maybe it’s referencing the millennial reign, when Jesus will reign with a rod of iron, causing sin to be no more.

The Lord reignethàthe world shall be establisahed and shall not be movedàthe people will be judged. The first and second events both occur with the second coming of Christ; that’s most likely how the phrase “the earth shall not be moved” should be taken. Maybe the earth will no longer rotate.

Bingo, I’ve got it. I think I’ve figured it out. Lemme find a verse…

Revelation 21:23 - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

That’s it! These verses DO indicate that the earth will be fixed! But not right now though. The earth will not rotate during the Millennial Reign of Christ!

The whole earth will no longer need the sun as a source of light; the glory of God will provide light! I guess that if the earth will have no need of the sun then, so earth will stop rotating around it. Maybe the sun won’t even exist anymore. That’s kinda sad, though, as I am rather fond of it. I initially was an astronomy major, but I have switched to Aerospace Engineering.


NOTE: I am not sure if this is the correct interpretation. I'd have to do some more research on it. But it seems pretty likely to be correct at the moment.

You just helped me do research and know my Bible better! Thanks!

As I said you must go through incredible gyrations to deny the clear geocentrism of the Bible. This is a good example.

Where are you getting that?

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof." (I added the bolding)

See above. You didn’t do real Bible research; you did a lot of research into proving you were right and Bible people are wrong. You went and found tons of Creationist data to prove your own views; you did not take the Bible and actually study it independently…or have you?

Do you think that Gerardus Bouw, Malcolm Bouden and the other geocentrist didn't do independant Bible study? I'd like to see you debate scripture with one of them. You would have no chance because the Bible IS geocentric as they point out.

Remember when I asked you to "please please please" read Genesis? You instead gave me links to Creationist websites. You still haven't read Genesis open-mindedly yet. Or have you? Have you actually read all of Genesis with an open mind, or just to look for verses to prove you're right and that people like me are wrong?

I have read Genesis with an open mind, including both Genesis 1 and 2. Somehow they seem like pretty different stories to me. I think they would to you also if you actually read them with an "open mind". Now please show me the verse in Genesis that says the earth rotates or that it orbits the sun.

He didn’t create any light source before the sun; His glory provided light, as it will again when He ushers in the new Heaven and the new Earth at His second coming.

So did He blink the light of his glory on and off to create mornings and evenings of the days before He created the sun? Why would He do that?

Hey, come on, Christians, what do you think about this stuff? Post!

It looks like you are confusing Christianity with strict Biblical literalism. OK. If you want some Christians to comment maybe we can get Marshall Hall, Gerardus Bouw, Professor James Hanson of the Tychonian Society, Malcom Bouwden or some of the other "True Christians" who actually Believe the Bible's clear message of geocentricity to come here and comment.

the frumious Bandersnatch

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

I always wondered how God created light before he created the stars! Dostoyevsky joke. Sorry.

 

[MQTA]

I always wondered how God created light before he created the stars! Dostoyevsky joke. Sorry.

I picture a big construction site with a string of hanging lights.

 

[Follower of Christ]

I always wondered how God created light before he created the stars! Dostoyevsky joke. Sorry.

Wouldnt it be rather preposterous of christians to beleive a Being could CREATE something like a star, yet be unable to simulate the light of a star ?

I think a christian who thinks that way is putting their god in a box.....

 

[Něco hrubého oprýskaného 1]

It's from The Brothers Karamazov...mentioned in the context of idle speculation among friends. Dostoyevsky was Orthodox. His characters questioned Christian beliefs a lot more than Tolstoy's ever did. Tolstoy just sort of incorporated Christianity into his world without any dialectics.

It's not so much about whether He COULD'VE created the light first or not, but what the significance of the order is.

It's like creating the scent of a flower, and then creating the flower as it's source. Possible, but odd.

Maybe light and darkness is meant as an abstraction...the concept of opposition had to be created as well.

 

[Follower of Christ]

It's like creating the scent of a flower, and then creating the flower as it's source. Possible, but odd.

Odd maybe...

...but what would be the point of stating that the scent were created first if it were not?

The false statement would be even more odd than the act....

 

[Arikay]

It wouldn't, unless you were trying to be more poetic and symbolic than literal.

Out of curiousity why do you think the bible also seems to forget to mention that the moon doesn't produce its own light, but is just a reflection of the sun.

 

[Mistermystery]

Out of curiousity why do you think the bible also seems to forget to mention that the moon doesn't produce its own light, but is just a reflection of the sun.

<3 I love you ;_;