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If You Believe that Religion is a Force for Good in the World

razeontherock

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If you want to believe that you are created from dirt, born into sin, bound by a 2000 year old human sacrifice, and constantly monitored by an invisible judge, jury, and executioner who can convict you of thoughtcrime - then you a free to believe such.

This is an "interesting" way of phrasing it ^_^ You seem to be sincere, and presumably well-intentioned. Allow me to point you to the forum rules, esp the parts about not proving C false. Some may take exception to your candor, and I'd hate to see you censored due to honestly not being aware of forum guidelines. Consider figuring out how to express yourself honestly within that framework to be ... a challenge?

But you mustn't tell me that my children learn this babble under the guise of science, or that the laws must reflect that of these ancient beliefs, or that I'm not a citizen of this country until I believe these things too.

:confused: Is that not a strawman? I think our FF's did a magnificent job of safeguarding these things.

The purpose of this thread is not to say that religious suppression is answer to all of Earth's problems. Simply to discuss the correlation between religiosity, intelligence, and general well being in the United States.

There's been a common uproar against the term "religiosity" as you use it. Has the trend escaped you? In the interest of streamlining communication, you'll want to re-think not only terms, but concepts on at least this issue. I think you might rather enjoy abbreviating Biblical Christianity as BC? ;)
 
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ericlawrence

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More religious by what definition? Suppose we define a state's religiosity by the percentage of children who attend religious schools. If so, we'd probably find that the northeastern states are the most religious. More people up there can afford private school, and Lord knows almost anyone who is able to get their kids out of the American public school system will choose to do so.
The numbers are taken from a Gallup poll in which the question was asked, "Is religion an important part of your daily life?"


A thief who breaks into a house and steals a television irritates one household. A banker who commits financial fraud may ruin the lives of thousands. Hence the two are not comparable, and merely counting up the numbers of each tells us nothing. Personally I feel that the rate of financial fraud is a much better measure of a society than the rate of ordinary theft. That's just my opinion, however.
Correct. But for the purpose of this study, standard, ordinary theft can be correlated with religiosity.

The point is that all moral comparisons involve moral judgements. If I don't agree with the judgement, then I've no reason to agree with the correlation that you're finding. For instance, when you point to theft, you obviously believe that it's wrong to break into someone's house and steal their stuff. But is it also wrong for the government to levy a tax on me, take my money by force, and give that money to a well-funded special interest group? You obviously believe that it's wrong for someone to shoot his neighbor. But is it also wrong for the government to shoot thousands of people in a foreign country? If so, then comparisons that count up only certain types of theft and murder while ignoring others mean nothing.
And I'm sure we hold different opinions regarding taxes and war, but I think we both probably agree standard theft and homicide are immoral. The existence of corporate theft and international war does not negate the moral implications of theft and murder.

Another point worth mentioning is that correlation is wherever you're determined to find it. Consider, for instance, that woman are vastly more likely to self-identify as religious, pray daily, and attend church weekly than men are. Now men are scores of times more likely to commit a violent crime than women. So if divide the population by gender rather than by state, the results point to religion not being associated with crime. Or, likewise, the elderly are much more likely to attend church than teens and young adults, while teens and young adults are much more likely to commit crimes. So if we divide the population by age, again less crime correlates with more religious observance.
So are you essentially arguing that no study could ever hope to demonstrate anything?
 
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drich0150

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As I attempted to illustrate, religious suppression is largely accompanied by competing claims of supernaturalism and dogma. If you believe that I have offered a misrepresentation then you have only replied in kind.
Where was this illustration made?

Actually, it would be interesting if you did pick apart my understanding of North Korea. As I've never been there myself, I know only what I've read and seen in documentaries. Is it not true that the food sent (in 2008, as you so politely emphasized) was believed to be a devotional offering to Kim Jong Il?
To a very limited degree yes, but my efforts were an attempt to help you stay on topic and not wander too far from the beaten path..

Who said it wasn't an offering?

I clearly stated that it was meant to be a peace offering, to get him to come to a peace agreement.

I disagree. There very idea of an infallible king is wrong.
I disagree the "Idea" of in infallible God is correct.

You say Kim Jong Il is a fallible man masquerading as an infallible deity. I'm sure he has a different opinion.
So?

But it wouldn't matter to me if he was a god or not. I don't accept the premise infallibility and absolutism and I don't accept the premise of an eternal kingdom from which there is no appeal - be it in this world or the next.
Then I would say any constructive "Exploration into Christianity" has now found it's conclusion.

Of course, the faithful are capable of performing good and moral actions. I'm not all that impressed. I'm significantly more impressed by a good and moral action performed by one who does not believe he is being compelled to do so by a celestial dictator.
Then morality simply becomes a matter of perspective. Example Heir Schindler.
When compared to an absolute standard Mr. Schindler was still a Nazi. When compared to other Nazi's He was found to be a good Nazi.. But when compared to an type of moral standard we still find him wanting.

Some religious people are sort of okay. They are of the same crop only that they both exhibit faith itself - a belief for which there is no evidence.
This is a false statement. All Belief is a matter of the same faith. "Evidence" being the only subjective variable dividing one system of belief from another. What you might except as "evidence" I may refuse and vise versa. Just because you will not except my evidence does not mean it is any less valid... Only a fool lets himself see what his peers will allow him to see.

This I do not find to be a virtue, but that is not to say that I wish to suppress it. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. However, it is alarmingly frequent that this boundary is overstepped. If you want to believe that you are created from dirt, born into sin, bound by a 2000 year old human sacrifice, and constantly monitored by an invisible judge, jury, and executioner who can convict you of thoughtcrime - then you a free to believe such.
Thank you for your permission to do so, Mok sum nium "IL."

But you mustn't tell me that my children learn this babble under the guise of science, or that the laws must reflect that of these ancient beliefs, or that I'm not a citizen of this country until I believe these things too. This is the only time that hatred and anger ever begin to enter the picture.
I am starting to get confused here. did I accidentally wander into a atheist forum by mistake? By my last check it was you coming into a Christian web site, more specifically a exploring Christianity sub form posing a question and then baiting and switching the topic just so you could spout your anti God message.. Do you not have a hypocrisy indicator that lets you know that you are doing the very same thing you are Preaching out against?

The purpose of this thread is not to say that religious suppression is answer to all of Earth's problems. Simply to discuss the correlation between religiosity, intelligence, and general well being in the United States.
Which can not be done through the method you chose to employ. You decided to use a method that neither lends itself for or against the topic at hand. There is absolutely no contrast or supporting data either way.. All we have to go on is your fail interpretation of random numbers.
 
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ericlawrence

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This is an "interesting" way of phrasing it ^_^ You seem to be sincere, and presumably well-intentioned. Allow me to point you to the forum rules, esp the parts about not proving C false. Some may take exception to your candor, and I'd hate to see you censored due to honestly not being aware of forum guidelines. Consider figuring out how to express yourself honestly within that framework to be ... a challenge?
There are rules against not "proving" Christianity false? (As if such a thing could be proved.) In any case, I've merely described the Christian belief - I made no attempt to disprove its validity. It may sound a mad belief (it certainly does to me) but it is the Christian belief, is it not? I don't see why I would be punished for stating it.


:confused: Is that not a strawman? I think our FF's did a magnificent job of safeguarding these things.
It would be given a different context. I was only replying to the "it takes a lot of hatred and anger" claim with circumstances that would case me to feel hatred and anger. Such things do happen, regardless of the fact that the founding fathers spent a great deal of time and effort to prevent it. Perhaps we can look at examples in another thread sometime.


There's been a common uproar against the term "religiosity" as you use it. Has the trend escaped you? In the interest of streamlining communication, you'll want to re-think not only terms, but concepts on at least this issue. I think you might rather enjoy abbreviating Biblical Christianity as BC? ;)
For the purpose of this thread I'm only using the term as the poll defines it. Which I believe is "How important is religion in your daily life?" For more general purposes, I consider religion to be the belief and worship of a supernatural power. Obviously not all religions are exactly the same, but they must share this in common.
 
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ericlawrence

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I am starting to get confused here. did I accidentally wander into a atheist forum by mistake? By my last check it was you coming into a Christian web site, more specifically a exploring Christianity sub form posing a question and then baiting and switching the topic just so you could spout your anti God message.. Do you not have a hypocrisy indicator that lets you know that you are doing the very same thing you are Preaching out against?
Exploring Christianity: A Forum for Non Christians to explore Christianity with Christians.
I fail to see how the requirements of the forum are not being met. We may have gotten a bit of topic. Not sure exactly how the rules work here but this is my thread and I don't mind seeing it slightly derailed for the sake of interesting conversation. Still, we appear to be discussing whether or not religion (or Christianity specifically) is a force of good. In the end, I'm an atheist discussing Christianity with Christians, am I not?

Which can not be done through the method you chose to employ. You decided to use a method that neither lends itself for or against the topic at hand. There is absolutely no contrast or supporting data either way.. All we have to go on is your fail interpretation of random numbers.
Random numbers? The sources are all listed beneath the chart. Why is it that nobody has visited the sources and discussed their issues with how the data was populated? Rather, everyone simply wants to add their own criteria.
 
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razeontherock

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There are rules against not "proving" Christianity false? (As if such a thing could be proved.) In any case, I've merely described the Christian belief - I made no attempt to disprove its validity. It may sound a mad belief (it certainly does to me) but it is the Christian belief, is it not? I don't see why I would be punished for stating it.

Word to the wise. Maybe the rule states attempting to prove C false? Anyway, many here would take exception to your verbiage in this short little quote, and I think you have interesting perspective to share.

For the purpose of this thread I'm only using the term as the poll defines it. Which I believe is "How important is religion in your daily life?" For more general purposes, I consider religion to be the belief and worship of a supernatural power.

So allow me to help you interpret the data you're collecting so far, since I know the locals here. We all worship "a supernatural power." If polled, we would all say that on a scale of 0 to 100 that religion has 0 importance to us. I find RC's to state the exact opposite - which in no way implies that the #'s in your chart pertains to them ^_^

Why the difference in terms? Jesus railed against the religious leaders of His day. He also showed that man is above the religious laws, and that said laws serve man, not the other way around. Surely you can see how "religiosity" fumes against such a mindset, because it defies it's cycle of control and abuse?

I would agree with your conclusions that those who submit to control and abuse actively lower their IQ, fall into poverty, and generally have a lower quality of life. Please don't confuse that with BC, that's all.
 
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drich0150

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Exploring Christianity: A Forum for Non Christians to explore Christianity with Christians.
I fail to see how the requirements of the forum are not being met. We may have gotten a bit of topic. Not sure exactly how the rules work here but this is my thread and I don't mind seeing it slightly derailed for the sake of interesting conversation. Still, we appear to be discussing whether or not religion (or Christianity specifically) is a force of good. In the end, I'm an atheist discussing Christianity with Christians, am I not?

Because nothing is being explored. You have come here with a preconceived notion/message, and you are simply bending facts and directing the conversation to preach to us in the same manner in which you have pointed out, that "we" should not preach to you..

Random numbers? The sources are all listed beneath the chart. Why is it that nobody has visited the sources and discussed their issues with how the data was populated? Rather, everyone simply wants to add their own criteria.
I do not take issue with the raw data. What make the numbers random is your inability to tie these numbers to the statement you made/questions you asked. If you take any legitimate source material and pair it with a random observation, doesn't the random observation also make the pairing of the legitimate source material random as well?

Let's say I had an 1850 farmers almanac, and now i open the book and start planning my next fishing trip according to the moon tables listed in that book. Please explain How my "random" actions/plans somehow find legitimacy just because I used a creditable source material? Doesn't the source material also have to be linked to the topic at hand?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you believe that religion is primarily a force for good in the world, how do you reconcile these statistics?

kpb5A.png


States Ranked by Religiousness

I'd like to know also how the factors of state economics and personal acquistion, state education and property taxes, state racial relations and opportunity, state social infrastructure and social institutions, politics and religious affiliation, among other things I'm sure I missed that make up the complexity of reality, all might play a part in the final assessment of correlations being quarried here. Do you have any information on that? Thanks.
 
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ericlawrence

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Because nothing is being explored. You have come here with a preconceived notion/message, and you are simply bending facts and directing the conversation to preach to us in the same manner in which you have pointed out, that "we" should not preach to you..
I'm exploring the Christian response to the topic at hand. Which facts have I bent? When have I pointed out that you should not preach to me? I'm all ears reverend.

I do not take issue with the raw data. What make the numbers random is your inability to tie these numbers to the statement you made/questions you asked. If you take any legitimate source material and pair it with a random observation, doesn't the random observation also make the pairing of the legitimate source material random as well?
It what way is the observation random? Or, rather, what would a non-random observation look like? I simply see an observation backed up with census data and polling figures. The observation being that there is a negative correlation between (professed) religiosity and general wellbeing.

Let's say I had an 1850 farmers almanac, and now i open the book and start planning my next fishing trip according to the moon tables listed in that book. Please explain How my "random" actions/plans somehow find legitimacy just because I used a creditable source material? Doesn't the source material also have to be linked to the topic at hand?
It wouldn't. Unless of course you had gathered a significant amount of data and statistics from multiple methods and sources illustrating that specific areas of the pond become more densely populated in accordance to phases of the moon.
 
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ericlawrence

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So allow me to help you interpret the data you're collecting so far, since I know the locals here. We all worship "a supernatural power." If polled, we would all say that on a scale of 0 to 100 that religion has 0 importance to us. I find RC's to state the exact opposite - which in no way implies that the #'s in your chart pertains to them ^_^

Why the difference in terms? Jesus railed against the religious leaders of His day. He also showed that man is above the religious laws, and that said laws serve man, not the other way around. Surely you can see how "religiosity" fumes against such a mindset, because it defies it's cycle of control and abuse?

I would agree with your conclusions that those who submit to control and abuse actively lower their IQ, fall into poverty, and generally have a lower quality of life. Please don't confuse that with BC, that's all.

I understand - and Hell, maybe even respect - the need to distance yourself from Roman Catholicism. But to go so far as to say that, as a Christian, religion has 0 importance is to argue that Christianity is not a religion. I don't share this view. I'm sure you can make a very strong case for Christianity being less hierarchical than Catholicism, or not as strictly defined, or any number of similar arguments, but Christianity is a religion. Perhaps the chart would become more useful when put next to some current studies showing the prominence of each individual religion and Christian sect by state. I may have time to find and organize this data later on tonight.
 
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AlexBP

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I think a more important question, and I hate to point this out, is what to make of the negative correlation between religiosity and IQ.
I'll answer that one. There is no correlation between religiosity and IQ. The table purports to show that in states where a larger percentage of the population self-describes as religious the average IQ is lower. However, even if the data were gathered accurately, that establishes nothing. Anyone who's passed a beginning statistics class knows that you can have a positive correlation between A and B and between B and C with having one between A and C. Slicing the population up by states is a meaningless distraction. If you want to know the relationship between religion and intelligence, the right way to do it is by looking at individuals, not states.

Moreover, a great deal of research has been done looking at individuals. While certain people have a strong desire to believe that those with low intelligence are more likely to be religious, the facts plainly speak otherwise. The best summary is in this well-known article by Stark, Iannacone, and Finke:

Economics of Religion | Archives: Rationality and the “Religious Mind” [Stark, Iannacone, Finke]

They find:
For nearly two centuries, political philosophers and social scientists approached religion as
a dying vestige of our primitive, pre-scientific past. Religious commitment was seen as
independent of, and largely antithetical to, the rational calculus. A cost-benefit approach to
religious behavior made little sense, because socialization reduced most religious calculations to tautological “decisions” to choose what one was trained to choose. Indeed, Freud and many other influential scholars argued that intense religious commitment sprang from nothing less than neurosis and psychopathology. Although contemporary research has shed the overt, antireligious rhetoric that characterized earlier work, it has tended to retain the antirational assumption – not because it has proved fruitful but rather because its origins are forgotten, its status unexamined, and its presence unnoticed. Traditional theories of religious behavior have accorded privileged status to the 2 assumption of non-rationality. The assumption has, in turn, hobbled research, promoted public misconceptions, and, at times, distorted law and politics.2
The distorting force of the received wisdom is underscored by the body of stylized facts
that it has spawned. For example: that religion must inevitably decline as science and technology advance; that individuals become less religious and more skeptical of faith-based claims as they acquire more education, particularly more familiarity with science; and that membership in deviant religious “cults” is usually the consequence of indoctrination (leading to aberrant values) or
abnormal psychology (due to trauma, neurosis, or unmet needs). Most people know these
statements to be true, even though decades of research have proved them false (Hadden 1987, Stark and Bainbridge 1985, Greeley 1989).
We argue below that the traditional view of religion as nonrational, not to mention
irrational, emerged from a 19th century scholarly tradition largely devoid of empirical support and tainted by prejudice, ignorance, and antireligious sentiment. The relevant data suggest that most religious behavior is, in fact, associated with good mental health, is sensitive to perceived costs and benefits, and is compatible with scientific training.
 
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razeontherock

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Perhaps the chart would become more useful when put next to some current studies showing the prominence of each individual religion and Christian sect by state. I may have time to find and organize this data later on tonight.

Also useful would be to overlay it with economic opportunity in general. We have the problem of the chicken and the egg ...
 
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Caesarjbsquitti

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Religion is a force for good things in this world...problem is some of the religious forces become corrupted and in fact paradoxically add bad things to this world...then there is the issue of the forces of evil...do you want to expose them ?
 
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AlexBP

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So are you essentially arguing that no study could ever hope to demonstrate anything?
I am largely in agreement with Mark Twain, who said, "There are three types of lies: lies, d*** lies, and statistics." I am equally in agreement with the anonymous person who first said, "68.7 percent of statistics are wrong." I am, in fact, a math teacher who has taught statistics in the past, and hence largely untrustworthy of them, since I know that nearly any data set can be made to support any conclusion with a few modifications and the modifications can be made to sound legitimate. The only point I was making on this particular study was that while you can slice the population up by state and find a correlation among the states between religiosity and crime, you can also slice the population by gender and find the reverse correlation, or you can slice it by age, and so forth. There are scores of ways you could compare religiosity and crime, some producing results in one direction and some in another. There's no way to conduct a perfect study, but studying individuals rather than states would be a big improvement. And, as the survey I linked to above demonstrates, surveys of individuals have not found any reason to believe that religious people are poorer, dumber, or more criminal.
Correct. But for the purpose of this study, standard, ordinary theft can be correlated with religiosity.

And I'm sure we hold different opinions regarding taxes and war, but I think we both probably agree standard theft and homicide are immoral. The existence of corporate theft and international war does not negate the moral implications of theft and murder.
Perhaps my point is best demonstrated by Anatole France, who said, "The Law, in its magnificent equality, prohibits the rich and poor alike from begging in the streets and sleeping under bridges." The point being that in any society, the comfortable classes define goodness and badness such that whatever they're doing is largely good, while things confined to the poor are largely bad.

Looking at murders and thefts tells us nothing about the goodness of a society as a whole. In the USA, such serious crime is at a very low level in most places but spikes to a very high level in a few places. Our society has, more or less, chosen to abandon inner-city ghettos, Indian reservations, and other pockets of extreme poverty. Different people have individual opinions about poverty, but that's what society as a whole has done. A valid moral judgement must look not only at judging those born into extreme poverty, but also judging the society that turns its back on those people.

So the larger point is that a table of statistics comparing religiosity to various secular standards for judging a society doesn't matter to me, because I don't judge by secular standards. When I read a newspaper I see judgements based on various assumptions, particularly that producing more of things and having more wealth is always good. But those of us who think by Christian standards are capable of asking whether or not more production actually is always good, and whether a mad scramble to maximize wealth is the best goal for society. A table of statistics may measure poverty, but it fails to notice the difference between abject, miserable poverty and dignified, voluntary poverty. And so forth.
 
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AlexBP

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just for information purposes....."People with higher education, (not necessarily higher IQ's) are more likely to be brainwashed..."

I generally down try to go down the road of anti-intellectualism but I would certainly agree that there are a lot of people ready to jump to bogus conclusions about education making them better. To some extent everyone thinks they're in the smart group but atheists seem particularly prone to getting suckered by this sort of thing, and usually attach it to left-wing politics. For example:

A phony comparison of IQ scores in 2000 claimed to show that blue states were smarter than red states.

A hoax in 2001 supposedly proving that Democratic presidents were smarter than Republicans.

A study last September supposedly showing that atheists and agnostics know more about religion than Christians was inaccurate.

And so forth.
 
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Emmy

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Dear ericlawrence. Do you blame God or Man? Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, in Matthew, chapter 22, verses35-40. "The first, and great Commandment is: Love God, with heart, soul and mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Can you image the Good that would do? We love (selflessly and beneficially) God and our fellow human. We show our love and behave lovingly, we help where there is a need, we share our food and resources, and we live God pleasing lives. God will approve and God will bless us, we are His children and Jesus died that we might live. Would you join, and become another hand to achieve all that, eric? We are on Earth to learn to become as God wants us to be: loving and caring, and forgiving and blessings to each other. God wants our love, freely given, and many, many Christians are trying to become as God wants us to be, and we are not perfect YET, but we are trying to become, as our Father in Heaven is. God loves you eric, why don`t you meet God half-way and find out for yourself. Jesus told us to ask God in Prayer, and He will give us our needs and hearts-desires, as long as they are good for us. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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