If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

[jimmyjimmy]

Was Adam and Eve totally depraved?

Post-Fall, yes. Pre-Fall, no.

 

[crossnote]

Yes. I agree. So would the reformers. I’m not sure what you think Reformed Theology teaches.

I am speaking of those Reformed who believe a previous work of the Spirit must take place in the elect in order for them to receive the Gospel. IOW regeneration (new birth)before faith.

 

[bling]

Post-Fall, yes. Pre-Fall, no.

So God treats us unfairly in comparison to Adam and Eve?
All we know for sure is that we have the added Knowledge of Good and evil, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?
Where do you find the proof for us gaining anything other than knowledge over Adam and Eve prior to them sinning since they had not yet eaten from the tree of life?
Could God not make us with just this added knowledge?

 

[Hammster]

I am speaking of those Reformed who believe a previous work of the Spirit must take place in the elect in order for them to receive the Gospel. IOW regeneration (new birth)before faith.

Regeneration precedes faith logically, not necessarily temporally. Those in the flesh cannot please God, so there must be a change.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So God treats us unfairly in comparison to Adam and Eve?
All we know for sure is that we have the added Knowledge of Good and evil, but is knowledge bad in and of itself?
Where do you find the proof for us gaining anything other than knowledge over Adam and Eve prior to them sinning since they had not yet eaten from the tree of life?
Could God not make us with just this added knowledge?

Have you ever considered a different (than yours) view of what the knowledge of good and evil is?

 

[crossnote]

Regeneration precedes faith logically, not necessarily temporally. Those in the flesh cannot please God, so there must be a change.

That's where the power of the Gospel comes in...

James 1:18 NASB
[18] In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

In any case, it is revealed that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

BTW the logical/temporal is a byproduct of human philosophy (a human construct) and has little bearing when it comes to eternal matters.

 

[Hammster]

That's where the power of the Gospel comes in...

James 1:18 NASB
[18] In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

In any case, it is revealed that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

BTW the logical/temporal is a byproduct of human philosophy (a human construct) and has little bearing when it comes to eternal matters.

The power of the gospel is that it makes dead men live.


But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:4-6

 

[crossnote]

The power of the gospel is that it makes dead men live.


But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:4-6

By grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. (This much we can agree )

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That's where the power of the Gospel comes in...

James 1:18 NASB
[18] In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

In any case, it is revealed that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

BTW the logical/temporal is a byproduct of human philosophy (a human construct) and has little bearing when it comes to eternal matters.

Thank you for the reply.

I think that we all could agree that the gospel of Christ is, ". . . the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16)

So, if faith comes by hearing, how can it be explained that when 2 people hear the gospel, and one comes to faith but the other doesn't?

How do you explain hearing producing faith in one but not the other?

 

[crossnote]

Thank you for the reply.

I think that we all could agree that the gospel of Christ is, ". . . the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16)

So, if faith comes by hearing, how can it be explained that when 2 people hear the gospel, and one comes to faith but the other doesn't?

How do you explain hearing producing faith in one but not the other?

That's the $1,000,000 question, because if I give a human sided answer, then the rebut is 'so therefore some are less fallen than others?', and if I give a God sided answer, then the response is 'so how can God fairly judge, when he has favored some (the elect) and not others?'
My take on the matter is that while God is 100% sovereign, He exercises His sovereignty in such a way to keep humans 100% responsible. I can't expain it any further.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That's the $1,000,000 question, because if I give a human sided answer, then the rebut is 'so therefore some are less fallen than others?', and if I give a God sided answer, then the response is 'so how can God fairly judge, when he has favored some (the elect) and not others?'
My take on the matter is that while God is 100% sovereign, He exercises His sovereignty in such a way to keep humans 100% responsible. I can't expain it any further.

I find little disagreement what you say. Everything, with the exception of one thing, is biblically accurate, from where I sit.

The only that I would disagree with you on is that God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone. All have sinned and all are rightfully judged to be condemned.

If God chooses to show mercy to one people, is He unjust? Have not all the rest recited justice, according to His law?

 

[crossnote]

The only that I would disagree with you on is that God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone. All have sinned and all are rightfully judged to be condemned.

Sure He is not obligated, but I believe He chose to show mercy to all...

Titus 2:11 (KJV) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[Hammster]

Sure He is not obligated, but I believe He chose to show mercy to all...

Titus 2:11 (KJV) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

You are ignoring the context. He describes types of people in the preceding 10 verses. If you take it in that context, it’s not each and every man (as anyone can attest isn’t true), and is instead referencing all types of men (people).

 

[crossnote]

You are ignoring the context. He describes types of people in the preceding 10 verses. If you take it in that context, it’s not each and every man (as anyone can attest isn’t true), and is instead referencing all types of men (people).

I already know the Calvinists talking points.
How about this, under the message of the Gospel there is only one type of people... 'sinners'...

Romans 11:32 (KJV) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

 

[Hammster]

I already know the Calvinists talking points.
How about this, under the message of the Gospel there is only one type of people... 'sinners'...

Romans 11:32 (KJV) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Galatians 3:22 (KJV) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

I suppose dismissing it as a talking point is one way to go about it.

 

[bling]

Have you ever considered a different (than yours) view of what the knowledge of good and evil is?

Not sure what you mean and this does not address my questions.
Adam and Eve were parented to adulthood (programmed) by the very best parent (God). being made very good by God's standard would most likely mean as good as a being could be made, but they were not perfect like Christ, since Christ was not a made being and thus always had Godly type Love.
The one way Adam and Eve were given to sin was going to be the way they did sin, although Eve would have lusted after the fruit, been selfish, and unwilling prior to actually eating the fruit.
Adam and Eve were going to sin and thus needed only one way to sin, so God made it very obvious.
Man will sin without Godly type Love and the indwelling Holy Spirit, but not sinning is not man's objective, so after seeing our very best all human representatives sin with just one way to sin we can be given lots of easy ways to sin, so we cannot prolong the time of not sinning and thus become sinners early on to help us turn to God for help sooner.
Our need for knowledge of lots of ways to sin (be displeasing to God) is thus helpful, but not needed for Adam and Eve to present man's need for God's charity.
This messed up world with lots of sin, tragedies, death, hell and satan roaming around provides the very best situation for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

Yes, just one question.

What do you think election is for?

 

[BBAS 64]

I believe He does it through the Gospel/Word.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:17)

(The context is the preaching of the Gospel.)

Good day, Crossnote

That would be God's appointed instrumental means for the explicit purpose of hearing, to those who are able to do so de'facto. ... Yes

The Gospel is God power unto salvation, and His appointed means will never fail Him because He purposed it to be so.

In Him

Bill

 

[crossnote]

Good day, Crossnote

That would be God's appointed instrumental means for the explicit purpose of hearing, to those who are able to do so de'facto. ... Yes

The Gospel is God power unto salvation, and His appointed means will never fail Him because He purposed it to be so.

In Him

Bill

Yes and according to Romans 10 it is a public proclamation of the Gospel, not some secret inner work tailored for the 'elect'.

 

[Hammster]

Yes and according to Romans 10 it is a public proclamation of the Gospel, not some secret inner work tailored for the 'elect'.

If what you say is true, and faith comes by hearing a public proclamation of the gospel, then we must conclude that everyone who hears a public proclamation then has faith. Extrapolating from there, we are made righteous by faith, so we then must conclude that everyone who hears a public proclamation of the gospel will be made righteous.