If you believe abortion = murder . . .

[judy]

I asked this question in another thread, but it sort of got lost.

For people who believe that abortion is no different than murdering a child: do you think that women who have had abortions belong in jail? Why or why not?

 

[NeTrips]

Under current laws, no. When abortion is re-criminalized then the abortionist should certainly be found criminally responsible and the female who sought this event should also be found criminally responsible. As to jail, that would have to be in accordance with the law but I would not be in opposition.

 

[MooCar93]

Under current laws, no. When abortion is re-criminalized then the abortionist should certainly be found criminally responsible and the female who sought this event should also be found criminally responsible. As to jail, that would have to be in accordance with the law but I would not be in opposition.

And if the woman is pressured/threatened into getting one by her boyfriend/husband? What happens to him, just out of curiosity?

 

[NeTrips]

depends how the law is written. what happens today when one person coerces another into committing a crime?

 

[DieHappy]

I think killing illegals should be ok. After all, they can't communicate with me to let me know that it is against their wishes. If the law were changed to allow the killing of illegals, would you be fine with that?

 

[levi501]

I asked this question in another thread, but it sort of got lost.

For people who believe that abortion is no different than murdering a child: do you think that women who have had abortions belong in jail? Why or why not?

Only a handful of nut jobs truly believe abortion is murder while the rest use the word to be provocative.
Very few people truly give the same value to the unborn.

Easy test for consistency...
If there was a clinic that was legally killing 2 year olds I would be down there right now taking in as many as I possibly could support. By support I mean I would be impoverishing myself. Although the degree people will financially burden themselves might vary I believe most people would do the same compassionate thing.
Now for those that declare abortion is murder and claim that killing the unborn is the same as killing a newborn, how come I don't see many of you at a clinic offering to take the child into your home if the mother will give birth? Don't both mentioning adoption as not all newborns are adopted.

 

[chaz345]

Don't both mentioning adoption as not all newborns are adopted.

I find this to be inconsistant with the fact that there are thousands of couples waiting to adopt a newborn. Many are so desirous of having a child that they spend many thousands of dollars to adopt from other countries.

 

[chaz345]

I do not go so far as to say that all abortion is murder. But abortion, other than to save the morther's life, past the point of viability is, IMO.

 

[flicka]

I

find this to be inconsistant with the fact that there are thousands of couples waiting to adopt a newborn. Many are so desirous of having a child that they spend many thousands of dollars to adopt from other countries.

Most people are looking for healthy white babies. Some adopt from other countries for reasons unrelated to the availability of children in this country. And the fact is that after carrying and delivering a child a woman is more likely to keep it rather than give it up, and the result is often a bleak life for everyone.

Adoption is not the cure-all some people would like to make it. There are too many complex human emotions and social expectations at play.

 

[MooCar93]

I find this to be inconsistant with the fact that there are thousands of couples waiting to adopt a newborn. Many are so desirous of having a child that they spend many thousands of dollars to adopt from other countries.

That's partially true. There are many of couples wanting to adopt a newborn. Unfortunately, they're generally wanting to adopt a specific kind of newborn (i.e., white and male). What about all the minority babies? And, what happens when the number of unwanted children being brought into the world starts to surpass the number of couples waiting to adopt (which, no doubt, it will at some point)?

 

[DieHappy]

All of the babies around here, white and minority, are taken. There's a 2 year wait at the two biggest adoption agencies near me for a baby and if you've had 2 babies, either on your own or through adoption, you don't get a baby. You have to get an older (10 months or thereabouts) child. It's simply false, at least in the burbs, that only the white ones are wanted. It's true when you get to older children, like 10 years old, that the white ones are more wanted, but babies are in high demand.

 

[chaz345]

That's partially true. There are many of couples wanting to adopt a newborn. Unfortunately, they're generally wanting to adopt a specific kind of newborn (i.e., white and male). What about all the minority babies? And, what happens when the number of unwanted children being brought into the world starts to surpass the number of couples waiting to adopt (which, no doubt, it will at some point)?

Well we could start actually trying to discourage the actions that lead to unwanted babies in the first place. Eliminating the idea that sexual satisfaction is everyone's God given right might be a good place to start.

 

[MooCar93]

Well we could start actually trying to discourage the actions that lead to unwanted babies in the first place. Eliminating the idea that sexual satisfaction is everyone's God given right might be a good place to start.

I agree with attacking the demand side of the equation. However, I'd do it by providing better sex ed and more available, sophisticated (because the pill is a nightmare for many of us women) contraceptives. Expecting everyone to abstain unless they want a baby is a nice idea, but woefully unrealistic.

 

[MooCar93]

All of the babies around here, white and minority, are taken. There's a 2 year wait at the two biggest adoption agencies near me for a baby and if you've had 2 babies, either on your own or through adoption, you don't get a baby. You have to get an older (10 months or thereabouts) child. It's simply false, at least in the burbs, that only the white ones are wanted. It's true when you get to older children, like 10 years old, that the white ones are more wanted, but babies are in high demand.

Whereabouts do you live, DieHappy, just out of curiosity? That's not the way it is where I live.

 

[DieHappy]

Northern IL. It's first hand conversations with the biggest agency in DuPage and the biggest in Cook.

I'm suprised it's not the case. I've been told that babies, i.e. less than 2 months old, are in high demand across the country. People who would prefer a white baby would rather take a minority than a 1 year old.

 

[chaz345]

I agree with attacking the demand side of the equation. However, I'd do it by providing better sex ed and more available, sophisticated (because the pill is a nightmare for many of us women) contraceptives. Expecting everyone to abstain unless they want a baby is a nice idea, but woefully unrealistic.

Never said anything about everyone abstaining. But considering the effectiveness of the various birth control options, I do have to wonder what percentage of abortions occur because of failed contraception. I'd bet it is fairly low. Someone should do a study, but somehow I don't think that will be happening any time soon.

 

[MooCar93]

Never said anything about everyone abstaining. But considering the effectiveness of the various birth control options, I do have to wonder what percentage of abortions occur because of failed contraception. I'd bet it is fairly low. Someone should do a study, but somehow I don't think that will be happening any time soon.

That's where better sex ed comes in. Also, it helps to use more than one method of contraception.

And sorry about the abstinence thing - I took your quote about people not having a God-given right to sexual satisfaction as implying that you were talking about that.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

As I have stated elsewhere... I think abortion is a bad thing, and I think the answer is to offer implanon implants to all 16 year olds at the same time as they recieve their tetanus booster.

I'm all for informed debate and discussion on the matter.

What I really, really detest, are people claiming to be interested in right to life issues, but whose REAL motivation for wanting to make abortion illegal is that they see pregnancy as a "punishment", and therefore deterent, to pre-marital sex.

Don't get me wrong, if you don't like pre-marital sex, thats fine, and if you don't like abortion, thas fine too. But Sounding all sanctimonious about one, when your real concern is the other, seems awful to me.

Making abortion illegal is NOT an appropriate proxy method for regulating what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

 

[chaz345]

That's where better sex ed comes in. Also, it helps to use more than one method of contraception.

And sorry about the abstinence thing - I took your quote about people not having a God-given right to sexual satisfaction as implying that you were talking about that.

No appology necessary. I was sort of getting at abstinence for unmarried people. One of the biggest reasons that pre-maritial sex has increased so much is that there seems to be an attitude that sexual pleasure is everyone's right. If we can eliminate or reduce that attitude, it would seem to me that irresponsible sexual behavior would drop too.

 

[MooCar93]

No appology necessary. I was sort of getting at abstinence for unmarried people. One of the biggest reasons that pre-maritial sex has increased so much is that there seems to be an attitude that sexual pleasure is everyone's right. If we can eliminate or reduce that attitude, it would seem to me that irresponsible sexual behavior would drop too.

I see. Well, my only issue with that is that getting people, at least in our society, to adhere to strict abstinence before marriage is a bit unrealistic. Most of my friends wouldn't even consider marriage before 25, and considering we normally hit puberty in junior high, well...