If you are leaving the UMC, be blessed, but just go

Methodized

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The Global Methodist Church has only been in existence since May 1st. But, Facebook and other forums are full of people who feel the need to take a shot at the UMC on the way out.

If you have felt led to move your ordination or membership to the Global Methodist Church, be blessed in your journey.

But those of us who intend to stay in the UMC don't really need to hear your impassioned exit speech about what you think is wrong with us as you are leaving. We've heard it. And, as you are no longer UMC, we don't really care what you think of us any more than we care what the Baptists, Presbyterians or other non-UMCers think about how we do church. Go in peace.
 

Gregorikos

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Ok..... people are leaving a denomination and a church they may have been faithful to for their entire lives, all because of the lawless acts of a group of bishops. And you expect them to leave quietly? I don't think you are being realistic. People are hurt.
 
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Methodized

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Ok..... people are leaving a denomination and a church they may have been faithful to for their entire lives, all because of the lawless acts of a group of bishops. And you expect them to leave quietly? I don't think you are being realistic. People are hurt.

Everyone in the UMC feels pain over the division. But like a divorce, it helps no one to take parting shots at each other.

I will choose not to rehash old long arguments in this thread.
 
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The Liturgist

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Ok..... people are leaving a denomination and a church they may have been faithful to for their entire lives, all because of the lawless acts of a group of bishops. And you expect them to leave quietly? I don't think you are being realistic. People are hurt.

Indeed, I myself feel extreme hurt as a Wesleyan Christian who spent a substantial amount of his youth in the UMC and still feels a connection to it. So I for one do not think it is fair or reasonable for the progressive elements in the UMC to expect the traditionalists to go quietly into the night.
 
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Methodized

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Here is the deal. No one in the UMC asked the WCA to form and to decide to pull out and start the GMC. Even now Progressive conferences are NOT asking anyone to leave. We are encouraging traditionalists who don't feel like every church and pastor has to do everything the same way to stay.

Second, no Traditionalist is actually harmed by being asked not to try to tell the UMC what to do when/if you are no longer UMC. No traditionalist was ever told they couldn't get married in the UMC or couldn't be ordained in the UMC. And again, no one was told to leave. Being told you can't tell others what to do may hurt your feelings but you haven't been harmed.

If you decide to divorce your wife (though your wife never asked for a divorce) you don't get to tell your ex-wife what to do with the rest of her life once you start divorce proceedings. If you do you aren't the aggrieved party.

if the new GMC forms and does stop talking about the UMC it is actually to their benefit too. I grew up Southern Baptist. A small group split off of the SBC forming the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. During a good bit of the history of the CBF the CBF has spent a lot of energy still being entangled in the activities of the SBC and the decisions of the SBC. As such, the group has in many places been unable to move beyond the SBC. Its stuck being the opposition rather than a denomination in its own right. Its stuck in the past.

If one of the goals of the GMC is to continue to try to influence the UMC it will get stuck like that. It will just be a gathering of the disgruntled. That's no way to do church and no way to grow a new denomination.
 
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seeking.IAM

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So I for one do not think it is fair or reasonable for the progressive elements in the UMC to expect the traditionalists to go quietly into the night.

Do not the progressive elements wish the traditionalists would stay? Are not the traditionalists choosing a path of their own sans progressive expectations? It's more like they are fleeing than being expelled.
 
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Methodized

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Do not the progressive elements wish the traditionalists would stay? Are not the traditionalists choosing a path of their own sans progressive expectations? It's more like they are fleeing than being expelled.

The Traditionalists are leaving of their own accord. They are doing so because while they can still dominate the UMC organizational structure officially, the moderates and progressives are just not going to continue to play that game. And they like the opportunity of creating a new denomination from the ground up rather than staying UMC.

If you are UM clergy considering joining the GMC read their rules carefully. You have far less rights as clergy in the GMC than you do in the UMC, including no guarantee of appointment.
 
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actionsub

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Ok..... people are leaving a denomination and a church they may have been faithful to for their entire lives, all because of the lawless acts of a group of bishops. And you expect them to leave quietly? I don't think you are being realistic. People are hurt.

Let me put it like this. I've been splitting my time the last several months between a Nazarene church and a church that disaffiliated from the UMC and became an independent non-denom. The latter got to keep the buildings (a multi-site church), etc. They had a gag order as to what the terms of the settlement were, but let's just say it involved lawyers, guns, and money. (kidding about the guns...) Naturally, the pastoral staff had to surrender their UMC ordination credentials, but the now independent church turned around and re-ordained them.

That said, every week the lead pastor brings up some mention of how we've now left the United Methodists and I'm like "whatever dude, can we just move on?"
 
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Methodized

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Let me put it like this. I've been splitting my time the last several months between a Nazarene church and a church that disaffiliated from the UMC and became an independent non-denom. The latter got to keep the buildings (a multi-site church), etc. They had a gag order as to what the terms of the settlement were, but let's just say it involved lawyers, guns, and money. (kidding about the guns...) Naturally, the pastoral staff had to surrender their UMC ordination credentials, but the now independent church turned around and re-ordained them.

That said, every week the lead pastor brings up some mention of how we've now left the United Methodists and I'm like "whatever dude, can we just move on?"

Exactly! I get mourning the past for a bit. But talking about what you used to be constantly is just looking backwards all the time. And visitors to your church have zero interest in what you used to be. They want to know what you are and intend to be.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do not the progressive elements wish the traditionalists would stay? Are not the traditionalists choosing a path of their own sans progressive expectations? It's more like they are fleeing than being expelled.

The reason some parishes are leaving after some analysis, I’ve realized, is that the “gracious dismissal” initiative, which is a bad deal, financially, for the parishes which do leave, has a sunset clause, and parishes are afraid of being trapped in the UMC, like what happened in the Episcopal Church. My thought is they stick it out or instead adopt dual membership, because the membership of the liberal parishes in the US is still declining, and that of the African parishes is still growing, and so the Traditional Plan will be upheld again when the next General Conference occurs, which is probably why it is being delayed, and the African majority in the General Conference will likely be looking into how to enforce the traditional plan.

They are doing so because while they can still dominate the UMC organizational structure officially, the moderates and progressives are just not going to continue to play that game. And they like the opportunity of creating a new denomination from the ground up rather than staying UMC.

The moderates and progressives really don’t have a choice other than to attempt to leave at the Conference level, and the optics of breaking away from African conferences because you don’t like the way they vote aren’t good. Due to the ambiguous rulings, while the ACNA Diocese of Fort Worth got to keep its property according to the US Supreme Court, who knows if the organizational structure of the UMC would allow for that.

Now, if the UMC does implement the Traditional Plan, I will commit, in the interests of my opposition to schism, to joining it, with my two parishes, provided sufficient flexibility in liturgy exists, and this would be splendid for us, because it would be a delight working with the Order of St. Luke. My Wesleyan Liturgical Congregationalist missions are really spiritual successors more than anything else to the Congregational Methodist Church, also known as the Republican Methodist Church and later as the Christian Connection, (the name change happening well before the Democratic-Republican party broke into the Democratic and Republican parties, so it has nothing to do with party politics; when it was called the RMC the President and the Congress were controlled by the Federalist Party) which later put the word Christian in the name Congregational Christian Church, and Conservative Congregational Christian Conference as a result of its merger with the Congregational Church, which was also Christian, of course. There was also a connection, interestingly, with the Christian Church of the Stone-Campbell movement, some aspects of the historic practice of which I really like.
 
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The Liturgist

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Let me put it like this. I've been splitting my time the last several months between a Nazarene church and a church that disaffiliated from the UMC and became an independent non-denom. The latter got to keep the buildings (a multi-site church), etc. They had a gag order as to what the terms of the settlement were, but let's just say it involved lawyers, guns, and money. (kidding about the guns...) Naturally, the pastoral staff had to surrender their UMC ordination credentials, but the now independent church turned around and re-ordained them.

That said, every week the lead pastor brings up some mention of how we've now left the United Methodists and I'm like "whatever dude, can we just move on?"

So have you heard of this really exciting church plant?

Wesleyan/Anglican: Ancient Paths Church Presents A Study Of "Ancient-Future Worship"

Its basically Wesleyan Anglican style worship. It has me really interested in the Church of the Nazarene.
 
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Andrewn

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The Global Methodist Church has only been in existence since May 1st. But, Facebook and other forums are full of people who feel the need to take a shot at the UMC on the way out.
Any guesses why the traditionalists decided to form a new denomination? They could have joined one of the other Methodist denominations such as:

The AME Church

The Free Methodist Church

Church of the Nazarene

The Wesleyan Church
 
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actionsub

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Any guesses why the traditionalists decided to form a new denomination? They could have joined one of the other Methodist denominations such as:

The AME Church

The Free Methodist Church

Church of the Nazarene

The Wesleyan Church

In general, the four denominations listed are considerably smaller than even the projected portion of UMC traditionalists who would secede, for one. They simply don't have the infrastructure (pension funds, etc.) to handle a large number of congregations coming in. That's what I had been told by a Free Methodist bishop when I was considering jumping the fence while in seminary.
This is what happened when the "moderates" left the SBC in the 80s. At that point, people asked, "why don't you all just go over to the American Baptists?" The ABCUSA said, "we can't take you all." Part of the problem at that point was that the American Baptists simply didn't exist south of the Ohio River, which means that a massive reorganization would have had to take place to even entertain the idea of all these Southerners coming in! There was a bit of "team loyalty" among the SBC dissidents as well, who decided to start "a denomination within a denomination" with the CBF.
By 2010, at least in the STL area, most of the CBF churches are dually aligned with the ABC simply to allow for more of a selection of pastors to fill pulpits.

There are other issues that would keep many UM pastors from going to one of the latter three listed. The Free Methodists and Wesleyan Church have issues with pastors that are divorced and remarried (which is why I didn't go over to the Free Methodists...), which is the case with even many of the conservative UM pastors. The Nazarenes are a bit more open.
But again, you've got the issue of vested pension funds which is a big sticking point when one jumps to another denomination.
 
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actionsub

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So have you heard of this really exciting church plant?

Wesleyan/Anglican: Ancient Paths Church Presents A Study Of "Ancient-Future Worship"

Its basically Wesleyan Anglican style worship. It has me really interested in the Church of the Nazarene.

I've heard of it. Nazarenes are somewhat open to more traditionalism wrt things like frequency of communion. That said, most COTN congregations are used to a MUCH less formal style of worship that ancient/future would be a hard sell for most.
 
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VolRaider

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The Global Methodist Church has only been in existence since May 1st. But, Facebook and other forums are full of people who feel the need to take a shot at the UMC on the way out.

If you have felt led to move your ordination or membership to the Global Methodist Church, be blessed in your journey.

But those of us who intend to stay in the UMC don't really need to hear your impassioned exit speech about what you think is wrong with us as you are leaving. We've heard it. And, as you are no longer UMC, we don't really care what you think of us any more than we care what the Baptists, Presbyterians or other non-UMCers think about how we do church. Go in peace.

Does it really matter if you keep hearing it? You have thumbed your nose at the Book of Discipline and did your own thing, but in a way I can't blame you because this milquetoast denomination will not do a darn thing about it. It keeps kicking the can, this time to 2024, and pretends to have unity and continues to have "holy conferencing" about sexuality, a single issue that was supposed to have died in 2020 but lives on because the progressive of the church latches on with bulldog tenacity until the traditionalists yell uncle, and flee to another denomination or form their own. Same thing happened to my beloved Episcopal Church.

What I fail to understand is why this is still an argument. The traditionalists won in 2020, yet that bulldog tenacity from the progressives keeps coming up. Why didn't THEY just leave? What is so hard about that? If you disagree with a church position so much, then don't hang around and change it. Leave! How hard is that? Why, in the end, are traditionalists always the ones leaving?

I'll tell you why. Because traditionalists simply want to go to church and adhere to the discipline of their church. Progressives are always wanting change, and are not satisfied with simply worshipping. It's all about the fight, and bringing the Church more in line with secular society.

As for me, I couldn't care less if my church left or stayed. I will continue to express my views when asked and will never conform. After all, we all know this denomination will never reign me in. :)
 
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