If you are a sinner, you are NOT saved by grace!

[RaymondG]

anyman just means anybody whenever it's utilized in scripture or even just in general today lol. Also the KJV translation is the only one that sayd doth not commit sin all the others say practice or continuous or something like that maybe because of the same reasoning I have made here. 1 john 2:1 would contradict 1 john 3:9 if 1 john 3:9 was suggesting a Christian must have sinless perfection.

The bible does not contradict itself.....interpretations, however, do. I see nothing wrong with what you teaching what you believe it right.

 

[Tony Trout]

I think my head hurts after reading through this thread.....UGH!!!

 

[Tony Trout]

I think my head hurts after reading through this thread.....UGH!!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is a matter one has to decide for themselves. E.g. You can't say that just because you are a sinner, everyone else is as well....or that if you can't stop sinning, No one can.

If you have concluded this for yourself, this is fine.....but let every other man be persuaded in his own heart as well.

It's really not a matter one simply decides for oneself, the stark reality is that we are sinners. We didn't stop being sinners when God took hold of us in Christ, He imputed to us His righteousness as a gift, the only righteousness we have is the gifted, imputed, alien righteousness of Jesus Christ.

We have Christ's righteousness, which is why the Scriptures can call us saints, that is, holy. But this isn't our holiness, because we don't have any holiness. When we stand before God there is absolutely nothing that we can offer Him. We are, before God, empty-handed beggars. It is God who has come to us, in the Gospel, to wrap the white robes of Christ's righteousness around us. It is God who comes to us, not we who come to God.

As it pertains to the Law, I am, and remain, a wretch and a sinner. When the Law is preached, that is when I hear the word of God's holy commandments such as "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your strength, with all your soul, and with all your heart" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" I find in myself this tragic truth: No, I do not love God with all my heart, with all my strength, with all my soul, and with all my heart, and I don't love my neighbor as myself. At my very best, even in my most noblest of actions and thoughts and words, I have failed to do fully what I ought. At my best I have failed to love God in the way that I should, I routinely fall short, I routinely fail--that's sin. At my best I have failed to love my neighbor as I ought, I have routinely fallen short of the great and high standard of glorious perfect that is in Christ. I can, and indeed must, confess that I have not loved God perfectly, I have not loved my neighbor perfectly, I have sinned against God and my fellow man in thought, word, and deed. I have fallen short, I have erred, I have missed the mark--even in the most noble and loftiest moments I have not been on target, I have sinned. Why? Why do I fail to do what I ought? Why do I fail and do what I ought not? Why do I not do the good I ought to do, and why do I do the evil I ought not do? Because, as St. Paul says, there is--as it were--a law at work even in my very members, deep down even in my own bones and fingers and toes and in my most innermost self, a law of sin and death which stands wretchedly bare before the God of holiness under whose Law I stand condemned, condemned by my own sin! The prosecuting attorney is my own flesh and blood, bare before the righteous Judge, and by His Law He has shut up every mouth having revealed the sinfulness of all.

So I find in myself nothing, nothing but myself, this bone-dry wretch and sinner, whose lips are pressed shut by the commandments of God which clearly say what is good and right, and I have no excuse, no argument, no defense--only the shame and silence of my own condemnation.

And it is right here, right in this place in the dark solitude of my futility, my wickedness, my inability, my nakedness; it is right here where Christ finds me. It is right here where Christ takes His nail-marked hands and says, "For you! I did this for you! My life is now yours!" And it is true, this is the case, this happens--I am clothed with Christ, says St. Paul, I have been buried and made dead with Christ, raised with Christ, made new in Christ. There is now this righteousness of Christ which is draped around me, pure and snow white, because it is Jesus who covers me. And it is this, now found in Christ, whereby I am no longer a stranger, no longer an enemy, but a child of God. Not in myself, not of myself, not by my effort, not by my holiness, not by the acts of my hands or the words on my lips or the thoughts in my head or the feelings in my heart--but by Christ and Christ alone.

To say that sinners aren't saved by grace is to throw away the cross and return the stone, to deny Jesus and cast away the entirety of the Gospel in one singular flagrant display of disregard.

But if Christ did indeed die.
And if Christ indeed is risen.
Then sinners are saved by the grace of God, and there is hope for the world.

Jesus Christ is Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1stcenturylady]

So essentially by your argument you are saying that none of us are saved by grace. Then "What are we saved by?" is my question.

I firmly believe that we are saved by grace. But I think you are drifting off here a little bit with sin. Sin is at our core. Ever since Adam and Eve and the first sin, it has been in our nature. Think about it like this, who teaches their child to lie? Every parent wants the best for their child and does not want their child to lie but lying, among many other sins, is just in our nature and we cannot do anything about it. This proves my point that NO ONE CAN BE SIN-LESS.

Jesus Christ's death and resurrection is what saves us. That is grace. Once we are truly saved, our hearts are transformed and we start to seek pleasure in God rather than in the things of this world. Of course, we fail. It is in our nature. On top of that, yes some people cheat God's grace, saying that they will sin and then repent. However, I don't believe that you are a true Christian if you cheat God's grace. When you are truly saved by grace, you realize how undeserving you are of the gift that God gave us. Which is why it is called "grace" which means "undeserving gift from God."

Let's not undermine what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. It is only through him that we are justified. It is ONLY through grace that we can be saved. By your argument, no one, and I mean no one, is and will be in heaven.

Only those in whom dwells the sinless Holy Spirit who leads you into all righteousness.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think my head hurts after reading through this thread.....UGH!!!

I know what you mean!

 

[corinth77777]

but both passages have sin though rather then sinneth
don't they? I'm trying to figure out what you're saying here

amartia hamartia...noun [f]

How can sin be a noun....[person,place thing, or ideal?]

In the above passage

Maybe because the unrigteousness ideal is the oject that is being modified

And ideals what ever sort they are can be the source of one's focus.

Having been born from above then one may think, then,
there is a new ideal that becomes the source of ones focus.

Therefore if the focus is Christ centered then One does not sin..at least not against the law.

And the actions of the body will usually depend upon where your heart/mind is set at.

Now, if you be in Christ and your body acts out of habits before your mind....then we have an advocate with the father...Who can plead our case. Or if your body runs your mind as a habit.

But my major quest is to define the meaning of commit sin....

My guess would be that One cannot go on committing sin because when they came to believe upon the son by the father.....they Now have a relationship. The Holy Spirit the seal [promise] who impedes our conscious/mind.

Since then, that unrighteousness is sin. The committing sin would be a place and time of focus in our heart/mind on an unrighteous ideal or ideals.

So then one born of God/fathered by God does not continue to focus on [unrighteousness]sin because God's seed remains in Him.

So what is the seed...wow! Jesus being formed in us. His Spirit...[I'd like to say the living word]



These are my thoughts...I'm not a teacher...so plz consult the Holy Spirit ....for confirmation of truth.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

then no one is saved and Jesus died on the cross for fun.

 

[RaymondG]

What I would like to know is....How does one unintentionally sin? We say that once we are born again and have put on the mind of Christ....We are still sinners and we still sin...but not willfully.

What are the "sins" we, with the mind and spirit of God, can commit without our will? What is a Sin that we have to continue to turn away from after being saved?

 

[aiki]

Some of these things have specific statements in the New Testament that if you do such things you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you do them as a persistent and common aspect of your living, without pang of conscience, yes. This sort of living reveals no true spiritual regeneration has occurred.

And realize also that Paul was referring to his past in context (1 Timothy 1:13), though he used the word "am" in the present tense in 1 Timothy 1:15. He said that he was currently the chief of sinners because he was FORMERLY a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious.

Paul never indicated he was without sin as a disciple of Christ. In fact, he writes very clearly that he was by no means perfect in his walk with God.

Philippians 3:12
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

 

[corinth77777]

What I would like to know is....How does one unintentionally sin? We say that once we are born again and have put on the mind of Christ....We are still sinners and we still sin...but not willfully.

What are the "sins" we, with the mind and spirit of God, can commit without our will? What is a Sin that we have to continue to turn away from after being saved?

The willful sin....is a type of sin depending on context.....if I am given opportunity to have heard of Christ..and then reject Him...any sins without accepting Christ are willful.

Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1 John 3:23

Look at the command...

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

 

[mozo41]

What I would like to know is....How does one unintentionally sin? We say that once we are born again and have put on the mind of Christ....We are still sinners and we still sin...but not willfully.

What are the "sins" we, with the mind and spirit of God, can commit without our will? What is a Sin that we have to continue to turn away from after being saved?

sin is a perception of lack whereby all things become of gain ...

understanding there are two seeds spoken of in scripture which are actually one seed (seeing their be but one GOD) ... perception is everything and our mind a garden which grows what is planted/seeded in it and this in relation to thought and from where one gathers these thoughts ...

to be born a second time is to see ( turned to see ) and to be born of water and spirit is to enter into what you see, which as you know is an inward journey ....

Jesus never let the serpents seed into his garden which is to say he kept the law as in he kept the battle at the gate etc

it is this perception of self/truth afforded to us by our flesh/five senses gathered by the creation we must come out from by turning away from, seeing it being an image of truth outside of the truth we are as GODS Son which puts a chasm /great gulf between us and where we came out from ...

it is here we are born again and follow on to know ...

we must not only come to our self but out from the field as well

 

[corinth77777]

sin is a perception of lack whereby all things become of gain ...

understanding there are two seeds spoken of in scripture which are actually one seed (seeing their be but one GOD) ... perception is everything and our mind a garden which grows what is planted/seeded in it and this in relation to thought and from where one gathers these thoughts ...

to be born a second time is to see ( turned to see ) and to be born of water and spirit is to enter into what you see, which as you know is an inward journey ....

Jesus never let the serpents seed into his garden which is to say he kept the law as in he kept the battle at the gate etc

it is this perception of self/truth afforded to us by our flesh/five senses gathered by the creation we must come out from by turning away from, seeing it being an image of truth outside of the truth we are as GODS Son which puts a chasm /great gulf between us and where we came out from ...

it is here we are born again and follow on to know ...

we must not only come to our self but out from the field as well

I get the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs..
If you may..plz elaborate on the rest

 

[mozo41]

I get the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs..
If you may..plz elaborate on the rest

to believe we are less than GOD is to rob Him of His glory or as Jesus put it "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers,"

there be two tables we eat from ... one a table already prepared by our Father ( spirit) and one being prepared by the women (soul) which affords us a mind of duality ... "a double minded man is unstable in all his ways"

Jesus kept the law "thou shall not eat of it" and so only ate from the table already prepared by our Father ... understanding nothing is out of order seeing a serpent leads us out of the garden which becomes a rod that leads us back in ...

it is at this time we are coming to a knowledge of truth/self and therefor knowledge is a necessary serpent within this process of raising up a son to see as He sees ...

 

[RaymondG]

The willful sin....is a type of sin depending on context.....if I am given opportunity to have heard of Christ..and then reject Him...any sins without accepting Christ are willful.

Hebrews 10:26

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1 John 3:23

Look at the command...

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Ok, Now what is the unintentional sin that we are saying we may commit after being saved? The sins WITHOUT our will......unwillful, if you will, that we are saying is the norm for the "saved."

 

[1stcenturylady]

to believe we are less than GOD is to rob Him of His glory or as Jesus put it "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers,"

there be two tables we eat from ... one a table already prepared by our Father ( spirit) and one being prepared from the women (soul) which affords us a mind of duality ... "a double minded man is unstable in all his ways"

Jesus kept the law "thou shall not eat of it" and so only ate from the table already prepared by our Father ... understanding nothing is out of order seeing a serpent leads us out of the garden which becomes a rod that leads us back in ...

it is at this time we are coming to a knowledge of truth/self and therefor knowledge is a necessary serpent within this process of raising up a son to see as He sees ...

So, if you do not believe you are less than God, do you believe you are equal with Him, or above Him?

 

[mozo41]

So, if you do not believe you are less than God, do you believe you are equal with Him, or above Him?

equal

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am absolutely blown away by Christians on this forum who claim they don't sin.
Or those who claim if one does sin, they really aren't saved on the first place.

Show me someone who loves God with all their being (ALL the time). Show me someone who loves their neighbor as they love themselves (ALL the time).

How many times did Jesus say not to worry? Show me someone who NEVER worries.

I have no idea how this hoop-jumping, merit based Christianity can be compatible with the notion of grace. Jesus did not enable us to not sin, he died, DIED, for our sins because there is NO WAY we won't.

No one is saying they don't sin. They are saying they don't commit the type of sin 1 John 3 is talking about. That is WILLFUL sin. Not all sin is the same. There is also UNINTENTIONAL/UNKNOWN sin. That is the only type of sin you can commit while walking in the light/Spirit. And those sins are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. 1 John 1:7

 

[1stcenturylady]

equal

Does God commit unintentional sin? No, so we are not equal. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from those sin, but we still commit them.

 

[RaymondG]

There is also UNINTENTIONAL/UNKNOWN sin.

YEs, this is what Im talking about. Can you give some examples of this "UNINTENTIONAL/UNKNOWN sin" That the "saved" are allowed to partake in?