If we are made in the image of God, where does homosexuality fit?

[Nadiine]

Nadiine, all it would take for you to convince me that homosexuality is wrong, is for you to explain, clearly and specifically, without engaging in special pleading or hypocricy, how homosexuality is contrary to the "love thy neighbour" command.

BECUZ GOD SETS THE STANDARDS ON WHAT LOVE IS.
Not you.

You use your standard of measure as to what "love" is -
But it is not an accurate measure.

That's like saying I can decide how to spell without learning
formal English spelling or relying on that standard.
All you're doing is redefining the standards for spelling by claiming
that you know how to spell and ignore the system of English
spelling that is already in place.

GOd is who decides what is moral - He is our Creator & Maker -
An example would be someone who invents a vaccination for
a disease - only the maker of that new vaccine knows how to
use it, and what it's usable for - and can tell you how NOT to
use it which will harm you.

When you invent or design something, an instruction manual
comes with it for proper useage - to protect you and use it
for what it was designed for.

The makers of a microwave oven will tell you what not to do
with it - sticking a live animal in one - or in an oven is obviously
misusing what the appliance is created to do.
Taking too much of a drug is harmful and we cant' be the judge
in our limited knowledge on how much to take. We go to a Dr.
to tell us that.

God is equivalent to that Dr. - we cannot self diagnose God's
standard of morality becuz we're born in sin and corrupted by
it and are not only prone to it, but we LIKE IT so we justify
things we do and often ignore things that we even know
are harmful to us.
I know I sure have - many, many times. I didn't care, I just
wanted it or that person.

As I said earlier in another post, we cannot often even know if
we love someone - lust, infatuation, dependancy & obsession are often
masked by "love".
There are TONS of people who have sexual relationships to fill
an inner void they have - it can be loneliness, low self esteem/
insecurity,..... there are lists of wrong reasons people have sex and claim it's love or think it's love.
But that isn't LOVE, it's self centered. SELF motivated w/out
even knowing it. This is why GOD sets the standard.

God says that if we have sex out of wedlock, it is not love -
we selfishly take that person for our pleasure or need.
And IF one does love another, they will marry and commit to
enjoy those benefits of marriage.

Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? as they say.

We are not capable of deciding what's moral in our sinful states.
We learn from God becuz God is the ONLY one capable
and qualified to tell us the whole truth and lead us as a Shepherd.
Why do sheep need a Shepherd to lead them?

& to conclude, God has DESIGNED human beings with a purpose
and for a reason. He did not design us to sexually unite w/
the opposite sex.
To use the example above, the maker of the microwave never
designed it for live animals to be cooked in them.
It is abuse of what it was created for and it is wrong.

And THAT is why it is not "love" for 2 of the same sex.
They are rebelling against Him and His order/created order
and it is an abuse of His design.

 

[LightHorseman]

BECUZ GOD SETS THE STANDARDS ON WHAT LOVE IS.
Not you.

You use your standard of measure as to what "love" is -
But it is not an accurate measure.

That's like saying I can decide how to spell without learning
formal English spelling or relying on that standard.
All you're doing is redefining the standards for spelling by claiming
that you know how to spell and ignore the system of English
spelling that is already in place.

GOd is who decides what is moral - He is our Creator & Maker -
An example would be someone who invents a vaccination for
a disease - only the maker of that new vaccine knows how to
use it, and what it's usable for - and can tell you how NOT to
use it which will harm you.

When you invent or design something, an instruction manual
comes with it for proper useage - to protect you and use it
for what it was designed for.

The makers of a microwave oven will tell you what not to do
with it - sticking a live animal in one - or in an oven is obviously
misusing what the appliance is created to do.
Taking too much of a drug is harmful and we cant' be the judge
in our limited knowledge on how much to take. We go to a Dr.
to tell us that.

God is equivalent to that Dr. - we cannot self diagnose God's
standard of morality becuz we're born in sin and corrupted by
it and are not only prone to it, but we LIKE IT so we justify
things we do and often ignore things that we even know
are harmful to us.
I know I sure have - many, many times. I didn't care, I just
wanted it or that person.

As I said earlier in another post, we cannot often even know if
we love someone - lust, infatuation, dependancy & obsession are often
masked by "love".
There are TONS of people who have sexual relationships to fill
an inner void they have - it can be loneliness, low self esteem/
insecurity,..... there are lists of wrong reasons people have sex and claim it's love or think it's love.
But that isn't LOVE, it's self centered. SELF motivated w/out
even knowing it. This is why GOD sets the standard.

God says that if we have sex out of wedlock, it is not love -
we selfishly take that person for our pleasure or need.
And IF one does love another, they will marry and commit to
enjoy those benefits of marriage.

Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free? as they say.

We are not capable of deciding what's moral in our sinful states.
We learn from God becuz God is the ONLY one capable
and qualified to tell us the whole truth and lead us as a Shepherd.
Why do sheep need a Shepherd to lead them?

& to conclude, God has DESIGNED human beings with a purpose
and for a reason. He did not design us to sexually unite w/
the opposite sex.
To use the example above, the maker of the microwave never
designed it for live animals to be cooked in them.
It is abuse of what it was created for and it is wrong.

And THAT is why it is not "love" for 2 of the same sex.
They are rebelling against Him and His order/created order
and it is an abuse of His design.

Can you convince me without self referential circular logic?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Great. So stop trying to condemn homosexuals using the OT then.

Are you speaking to me? I didn't use a verse from the old testament to condemn homosexuality, though technically you still can. Homosexuality was condemned before the Old law was given to the Israelites in Exodus. Genesis 19 it condemned the act and it is still wrong in the New Testament (Romans 1, and 1 Corinthian 6:9).

There are some people who claim that Genesis 19 is not condemning homosexuality but that the people of the cities were destroyed because they were inhospitable. Well in Jude 5-7 it states

But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Oh by the way, it is not the Old Testament that was done away with, it is the Old law. I can still use the Old Testament, the old law I am not bound to.

It is the definition of consentual... according to the Bible... ANY woman who is found having sex in the city with someone other than her husband, who does not cry out for help, is guilty of adultery, and should be stoned to death. This includes those raped at knife point, and the 12 year olds raped by their step fathers, told its all their fault.

Read the scripture. One said "lies with her" and the other said "forces her and lies with her" excuse me which one sounds like rape? And it was not just the woman both parties were put to death. And why are you talking about adultery? It states that this young woman is betrothed to a husband but had sex with another man. That's not adultery or rape, that's sex outside the marriage. The rape is in Deu 22: 25-27

The one about adultery is this one
"If a man is found lying with a woman married to a husband, then both of them shall die--the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall put away the evil from Israel." Deut 22:22

I find this amusing. If we would have interpreted scripture the way you are interpreting scripture, I would be stoned to death and this conversation would never take place.

Now, if this seems ridiculous to you, great, I agree. But thats WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS IS THE LAW. So, if you're going to claim to live by God's law in all things, better get the rocks out to deal with all those child abuse victims in any urban area, huh?

Do you read your bible? Have I not just said, we are not under the old law and therefore those type of actions would not be required for us to take because we are under the new covenant?

I think one of us needs to do more research... it is my understanding that the 7 year slavery limit was only under certain circumstances, and indeed the majority of slaves were slaves indefinitely.

I don't know what the circumstance are.


Exodus 21:1-6

Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them; If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master was given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out by himself. But if the servant plainly says 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. he shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever."


What in the world does most of this conversation have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Nadiine]

Can you convince me without self referential circular logic?

Are you claiming to be a Christian?
Or do you think you're exempt from what God commands?

Or, do you just reject the Bible as God's truth to us that shows
us what He wants and who He is?

If so, then I guess your Christianity is self made according to
relativism - and if that's the case, you can't tell me I'm wrong
for that matter becuz there are NO absolutes in relativism and
you have nothing to correct me with.

 

[Inviolable]

Nadiine, all it would take for you to convince me that homosexuality is wrong, is for you to explain, clearly and specifically, without engaging in special pleading or hypocricy, how homosexuality is contrary to the "love thy neighbour" command.

6 pages later.

I'll try.
We need to define exactly what "love thy neighbor" means. If it simply means that we shouldn't be hostile toward other people, that's already going on.
If it means we let them talk us into sin, then that aint gonna happen.

Most people get a view of love thy neighbor in a kind of hippy culture way.
Your neighbor comes out to the fence line and you have to hump his leg with good karma and sing kumbaya.

To me, it's respect.
I'd imagine any homosexual can explain their sexuality, as it's probably been the highlight of their life. So, I'm sure they can explain it in great detail.
My questions is, after that soul searching to explain their sexuality, can they understand what it means to be heterosexual?

 

[BigBadWlf]

What version are you reading? Deu 22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Deu 22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

The rape victim is in 22:25, and she is not put to death. The betrothed virgin in 22:24 who doesn't cry for help, who consents to lie with a man unforced was stoned.

The original word used in both verses and translated into “and lie” and “force her, and lie with her” was shakab

Shakab refers to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.

 

[BigBadWlf]

This is their main ploy in trying to discredit the OT law we use
for identifying moral sin.

Even tho several of the same people have been told the hermaneutics
of OT Law (which means we cannot arbitrarily cherry pick which laws we agree with
then reject others we don't - which is moral relativism which seems
to run rampant w/ a few at CF)
they continue to make the same tired arguments as if they can
marginalize & discredit the OT moral system.

Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?
Do you cut your hair?
Wear clothing made of different fabrics?
Allow people with glasses to attend your church?
Keep slaves?
Eat shellfish?

Or do you cherry pick?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Former homosexuals admit the harm they committed in their
relationships and they sure didn't recognize it until later
on when they were out of the lifestyle.


​

You mean like:

I taught workshops at the annual Exodus conferences on the process of being “delivered from homosexuality” and the benefits of healing the inner child through prayer. I authored two books, Long Road to Love, and Strangers in a Christian Land. My message was clear: being gay is a choice, and you can and should change in order to be Christian….I directed Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral ministry in Hayward, California, which incorporated prayer, Bible study, and individual counseling. …I considered myself “ex-gay” because I had ceased sexual activity, and I spent my time promoting “change” in others. When these changes did not occur, the people in my care frequently asked how long it would take for desires to change. I lied and encouraged them to keep praying and reading their Bible. When they asked how long it took for me, I avoided the question. …I apologize to those individuals and families who believed my message that change was necessary to be acceptable to God. In recent years I have seen the resulting damage from rejection, shame, and conditional love. I apologize for my part in presenting a God of conditional love, and ask forgiveness for the message of broken truth I spoke on behalf of Exodus.
-Darlene Bogel

or like:

"There has been an increasing uneasiness in me since 2005 that what I was teaching was harmful to people. I became tired and ill at ease with always feeling that this part of my life and others attending the group were broken and in need of fixing.” Kim Brett founder of Living Waters an ex-gay program


or?

"I suffered torment and huge anxiety all muddied by confusion and constant failure during the Exodus years. For me the most traumatic outcome was my personal sense of failure as a Christian and not being accepted as a part of the church family I loved.” Wendy Lawson, former leader of an ex-gay group in Melbourne

or?

"years ago, I helped create EXODUS International. Today, I am here to apologize. Today, I am a licensed Marriage and Family therapist, a father, a born-again, evangelical Christian—and a proud gay man. But thirty years ago, I was not so proud….I need to say that some had a positive, life-changing experience attending our Bible studies and support groups. They experienced God’s love and the welcoming fellowship of others who knew the struggle. There were some real “changes”—but not one of the hundreds of people we counseled became straight…Instead, many of our clients began to fall apart – sinking deeper into patterns of guilt, anxiety and self-loathing. Why weren’t they “changing”? The answers from church leaders made the pain even worse: “You might not be a real Christian.” “You don’t have enough faith.” “You aren’t praying and reading the Bible enough.” “Maybe you have a demon.” The message always seemed to be: “You’re not enough. You’re not trying hard enough. You don’t have enough faith.”… Since then, I have remained one of EXODUS’s most persistent critics – not because I want to “deny hope.” On the contrary, I want to affirm that God loves every person—and that God’s love and forgiveness does indeed change lives. It has certainly changed mine. It just didn’t make me straight. I have found harmony between my sexuality and my spirituality—and I am hopeful that others can do the same.” Michael Bussee, founder of Exodus International

or?

“I first heard of the Living Waters ex-gay program in early 1991. As a pastor on the leadership team of Christian City Church in Brookvale, I arranged to set up the program in our church to help those struggling with homosexuality. At this time, I began my own research into the causes of homosexuality and found there was mounting evidence that sexual orientation is determined in the womb. Now I have absolutely no doubt that homosexuals are born gay and don't need to change. If I were to see any of the people that I took through the Living Waters program again, I would say I'm sorry. My intentions were to help you through your struggle, but I acted in ignorance.” Vonnie Pitts Living Waters counselor

Or?

“Perhaps I should take this opportunity first to say how sorry I am, and to ask forgiveness from all my fellow Gay, Lesbian Bisexual and Trans-gendered people who might be listening to this—for my part in colluding with the religious right in the Western world. Though at the time we did not see it this way, our collusion involved setting up and maintaining an oppressive anti-gay, and I must also say equally anti-Christian view of homosexuality, that profoundly dishonors Jesus Christ and has betrayed the Gospel. There really can be no excuse for this. … One year later, I discovered Evangelicals Concerned, a theologically conservative, yet pro-gay, Christian ministry founded by Dr Ralph Blair from New York. They had operated as a kind of opposite number to Exodus over the same time-span. There I found Christian fellowship where members could fully embrace the possibility of being gay and Christian without conflict. I also met many lesbian and gay Christians who had been in long-term committed partnerships, so at last I could see for myself that this is not only possible but entirely appropriate for gay Christians. Consequently I fully embraced the ethos of EC….Ever since, at Courage UK, we have operated as a gay-affirming Christian ministry. As a result, I have become a pariah amongst evangelical and charismatic churches in the UK and beyond. But apart from the sad loss of what I had believed to be many good friends, I have no regrets. I could not possibly return to the spiritually and emotionally corrosive ministry style that has proved to be so misguided and downright damaging in the long run.” Jeremy Marks founder of Courage UK, an ex-gay ministry

 

[BigBadWlf]

Again you display your inability to grasp OT Law.

Which I believe at this point is willfull. Do you WANT to
understand how the Law works? Or just continue the same
failed arguments for all of us to see your lack of understanding?

The NT AFFIRMS the OT moral law is in tact and is
encased in the Law of Love of Neighbor as self.
Being under the law of love IS BEING UNDER MORAL LAW
from the OT (reiterated again in the NT in generalized lists
1 Cor 6:9-11, 1 Tim 1:8-11, Eph. 4 & 6, Gal. 5, Rev. 2):

“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor 3:6

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4

 

[JediMobius]

But again, the problem is that we don't always SEE harm when
it's done (as if not seeing it means there is none??) - alot of times
we only see the harm much later in hind sight.
That's what happened with me for many years.
Prior to coming back to the Lord and being seriously backslidden
for 13+ yrs, I did nearly everything I wanted and got away with
it... (my sister was often jealous that I got my way).

But when I came back to the Lord and saw how what I had done
those years caused me alot of baggage, pain & regret and then wasted
time (lost time being the biggest kicker of all) -
I NOW see the devestating harm I caused myself. I cannot imagine
how much further I'd be if I didn't live for myself in sin.

Sin ALWAYS harms - if not emotionally, physically. If not physically,
spiritually. Most people ignore the fact that biblically, sin
SEPARATES us from God. How can that not be harmful?:o

When man becomes his own free moral agent, he is solely living in
flawed perception that is prone to justification of evil -
becuz man is inherantly corrupted in the heart and mind thru
original sin

Preach it!

My entire point is that according to the Bible, the way to tell if she consented or not is whether she screamed for help or not. As I just said to the prior poster, by the Bible's definition, all women raped at knife point, or those drugged, or otherwise unable to scream, consented.

You're missing the context. She didn't scream, while being in the city - the first hebrew definition being 'a place guarded by waking or by watch.' This means she would have know that she could scream right away and be heard and rescued. Their cities were a lot different from New York where someone could scream and be ignored or not be heard, these people were more like one very large family. We could go even further and assert that God used the Israelites as an example. Many of their laws showed that righteousness should be held to the point of death, so knowing these laws, a virgin would have a choice being held at knifepoint. She could submit to his pleasure, and eventually die anyway, or scream at and certainly be heard by someone, serving righteousness at risk of her own death. If she were drugged, I'm sure that would fall under the stipulation of being forced. Also, as Jesus and the early church told us, people were supposed to be able to look past the letter of the law and judge by its intent. Further, if you look at verse 25, it says the woman is forced "in the field" outside the city, so there's the stipulation right there that in a circumstance where the damsel could not have been heard screaming, she is not to be put to death.

Indeed... so if, as you freely admit, it is wrong to hold people to account by the old laws, how come everyone asked to justify the condemnation of homosexuals invariable drags out Leviticus 22 yet again? My point is this, if you can see the flaw in stoning rape victims to death, even though it was what the Bible literally demands, then maybe you should take a moment before condemning homosexuals "because its what the Bible says."

Again, am I condemning or am I pointing out God's standard? I don't see a flaw in the law, I see Christ's fullfilment of the law. Jesus told us to love one another, and that is why I no longer see fit to put adulterers to death. I don't see fit to put murderers to death either, that's not love, they deserve a chance for redemption just like any of the rest of us.

I see that passage as a warning, because thinking lustful thoughts can lead to lustful acts. It doesn't LITERALLY mean that looking lustfully at a woman is as bad as adultery, otherwise, well, heck, any man who's been outside on a warm summer day is an adulterer.

I used to work in construction, with the typical skirt-chasers that fill that field, so maybe you just don't have that perspective. There's a difference between simply seeing a cute girl and seeing that same cute girl in the mindset of what pleasure she could bring you. That's lust, and it might not be acted on then, but it builds up, and it separates the luster from God. It doesn't have to have a direct consequence in the physical world to be a sin.

The Bible never says that. Sure, I believe the dietary laws are no longer binding under the new covenant, but I believe neither is the condemnation of homosexuality. Maybe you can explain to me why Christ released us from observance to the dietary laws, but we are still bound to vilify homosexuals?

The bible never says what? There are at least 4 'that's' in my post you could have been referring to. The dietary laws were there, as I understand, to discipline God's children. In the context of God finding homosexual sex detestable, I really don't see how the two are in the same boat. Taking away the requirements of a certain part of the law doesn't do so for the rest of the law, so unless homosexual sex (notice, I keep denoting the act, not the attraction) can somehow fit into Mat 15:17 "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?" I don't see how that works.

I'm not vilifying homosexuals, I'm upholding the moral law. They vilify themselves just as I have vilified myself in the past through my own sins, whether they were sins I recognized and ignored or sins I didn't notice.

So where are all the Christians rabidly condemning smokers and trying to make it illegal for them to get married? There are none, of course. Nor are there thread after thread of over zealous Christians condemning smokers as sinners. Yet there are for homosexuals. Justify the double standard please?Remind me where Jesus said it was his followers place to condemn anybody? I must have missed that bit.

Umm. What does smoking have to do with marriage? In fact, what do religious zealots have to do with this conversation? You are apparently applying others' actions to my words and to scripture instead of only considering my words against scripture. I've never seen a Christian smoker who didn't realize it was wrong and was trying to break the addiction. I haven't seen churches crop up embracing smokers the way there are churches embracing homosexuals - which would be no big deal if I knew they upheld that sexual acts between a man and another man is shown in scripture to be sinful, but I don't think that's the norm with these churches. I haven't seen legislation attempting to give smokers equal rights with non-smokers, quite the opposite really. Smokers are getting excluded from more and more indoor environments.

My point is that I'm not condemning anyone at all. If anyone stands condemned because of a moral law I uphold, it is the law that condemns, not I. Homosexual or not, every one stands condemned without Christ, so I really don't understand why it's necessary to take away from the law to suit society. If your issue is really that people are hypocrites, which most of us are, how does that justify the sin of homosexual sex as no longer being a sin?

The original word used in both verses and translated into “and lie” and “force her, and lie with her” was shakab

Shakab refers to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.

Um, no. Verse 25 uses châzaq - to force or restrain among other things. The previous verses use shâkab - to lie with for rest or sexual connection, but shakab says nothing about force.

 

[elephunky]

Unfortunately, this relays to me that you are viewing things
in a very narrow sense and aren't viewing things in a spiritual
sense as God views them.

Can you "SEE" spiritual damage when it's done to a soul?
No you cannot.
Can you "SEE" into the spirit world and know what a person
gives Satan when they sin?
Can you "SEE" into their emotional state and see years of
scarring that have piled up as they lived in sin/perversions?
Do you "KNOW" God's will for each person's life? Does God
WANT them to sleep with this or that person they willfully
choose to?

You can't see anything past what the person wants to do
and if it's what they want & people consent, it's "GOOD".
So it has to be good/moral Just becuz someone wants to do it?
(ie. your standard of measure for morality - which is relative -
becuz that's YOUR code to decide what is moral and it
has flaws)

I have news, even if something is "moral" or doesn't appear
to be harmful doesn't make it right or good for every single person.

How good is it when women have slept w/ the wrong guy
& he turns out to be a stalker? Or the guy is emotionally
abusive and she doesn't notice how she's being conditioned
by him???
Or they got an STD or pregnant...??

Former homosexuals admit the harm they committed in their
relationships and they sure didn't recognize it until later
on when they were out of the lifestyle.

People WANT to take drugs too - they think they can enjoy
them and master them, only to find out that the drugs
master them later on...
same w/ alcoholics.

The truth is, you are utterly incapable of seeing all the harm
and damage to a person's mind, body or soul.
But since God see's all 3, it makes HIM capable of judging
what is moral and what is immoral and forbidden.

To put yourself in that position of judging sin and righteousness, you've actually taken on God's job.
​

Are you claiming to be a Christian?
Or do you think you're exempt from what God commands?

Or, do you just reject the Bible as God's truth to us that shows
us what He wants and who He is?

If so, then I guess your Christianity is self made according to
relativism - and if that's the case, you can't tell me I'm wrong
for that matter becuz there are NO absolutes in relativism and
you have nothing to correct me with.

Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?
Do you cut your hair?
Wear clothing made of different fabrics?
Allow people with glasses to attend your church?
Keep slaves?
Eat shellfish?

Or do you cherry pick?

whoa guys, TAKE A CHILL PILL! All the topics I visit end up someone critically questioning anothers faith/christianity. Just a ruddy slinging match.

I dont knwo about you guys, but I was interested in the original topic, not who is the better Christian or what is more accurate this or that.

 

[BigBadWlf]

I'm not vilifying homosexuals, I'm upholding the moral law. They vilify themselves just as I have vilified myself in the past through my own sins, whether they were sins I recognized and ignored or sins I didn't notice.

No you are abusing the bible to justify your own personal prejudices

 

[daydreamergurl15]

No you are abusing the bible to justify your own personal prejudices

That's interesting seeing as there are biblical scriptures that condemn the practice but yet you seem to bypass all of those.

 

[Nadiine]

That's interesting seeing as there are biblical scriptures that condemn the practice but yet you seem to bypass all of those.

I'd call it outright rejection

 

[daydreamergurl15]

“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Cor 3:6

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." Galatians 5:4

2 Cor 3 is talking about the old law. And we know that because Paul uses the phrase "letter" in Romans 7:6
"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

But that does not mean that we are no longer under commandments from Christ, because Christ said to His apostles in John 14:12-24

12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.


15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

So, while you are making the assumption that we are not to follow the Letter of the law, you are correct, the letter of the law was the old law. But we are to follow the commandments of Christ and we worship God in Spirit and in truth.

 

[Nadiine]

What people keep missing (I have to wonder if it's
on purpose anymore) is that the 2 laws that Jesus
said we are under today are the 2 laws found in
the OT Torah -

Love of neighbor as self (MORAL LAWS stipulate what
is loving behaviour - they are predicated upon moral laws
which still stand from the OT, and are reiterated in long
lists in the NT)

Love of God above all else.

Is love of God promoting perversions? Defying His Word?
hardly, and it's not love of others to lead them into sin
either by promoting evil.

Romans 1:32 (Amplified Bible)

32Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die,
they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.


Christ fulfilled the Law, but there are laws within it that
we are STILL under becuz they are universal and deal with
our treatment to others and God. How we relate to others
displays love or is unloving.
By obeying the laws of love, we FULFILL LAW.

Law existed PRIOR to the Torah too - it was SIN for Cain to
Murder Abel. It was SIN for Adam & Eve to disobey God's
command.
moral laws existed prior to the Torah and continue today.

 

[LightHorseman]

What people keep missing (I have to wonder if it's
on purpose anymore) is that the 2 laws that Jesus
said we are under today are the 2 laws found in
the OT Torah -

Love of neighbor as self (MORAL LAWS stipulate what
is loving behaviour - they are predicated upon moral laws
which still stand from the OT, and are reiterated in long
lists in the NT)

Love of God above all else.

Is love of God promoting perversions? Defying His Word?
hardly, and it's not love of others to lead them into sin
either by promoting evil.

Romans 1:32 (Amplified Bible)

32Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die,
they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them.


Christ fulfilled the Law, but there are laws within it that
we are STILL under becuz they are universal and deal with
our treatment to others and God. How we relate to others
displays love or is unloving.
By obeying the laws of love, we FULFILL LAW.

Law existed PRIOR to the Torah too - it was SIN for Cain to
Murder Abel. It was SIN for Adam & Eve to disobey God's
command.
moral laws existed prior to the Torah and continue today.

Is declaring other people "perverted" loving one's neighbour?

 

[JediMobius]

Is declaring other people "perverted" loving one's neighbour?

It's loving God first, by maintaining his law, and second loving others by hopefully drawing them to repentance.

 

[LightHorseman]

It's loving God first, by maintaining his law, and second loving others by hopefully drawing them to repentance.

You keep the first by keeping the second.

You honour God by loving your neighbour.

Nowghere in that paradigm do I see any room for villifying people because of their sexuality.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

You keep the first by keeping the second.

You honour God by loving your neighbour.

Nowghere in that paradigm do I see any room for villifying people because of their sexuality.

You are equating non-tolerance for hatred.
Just because I do not tolerate the sins of someone (and yes, biblical it is sin) does not mean I hate that person.

Actually if you read the end of Romans 1: 26-32

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

How is it loving, if I approve of the very thing that the Holy Spirit said is deserving of death? And it's not just homosexuality, look at that list, it's a lot of things that God considers sin and we don't think anything of it. Yes, I honor God by loving my neighbor, but I do not have to deny God's law in order to do that. I'm sorry that you can't see that this is love. I don't want anyone to perish, I wish that every single one of us can go to heaven, but I know that the only way to heaven is through Christ, and He has asked us to deny thyself and follow Him. If it goes against God, no amount of reasoning within yourself or to others is going to change His commandment come judgment day.