If Torah has always been in existence from the beginning

[Lulav]

How can Paul teach that it was 'added to increase sin'?

Galatians 3:19

Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

Romans 5:20

The Law was given so that the trespass (sin) would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

 

[Chicken Little]

you want a jews/MJ veiw.. or can anyone jump in ?

 

[ErezY]

Deuteronomy 31
26"Take this book of the Torah and put it next to the ark with the covenant of ADONAI your God, so that it can be there to witness against you.

The law "witnesses against" us. As taught by Moshe

 

[visionary]

The first time humans heard the word, "sin" they had no idea the depth, width, breath, impact, and destruction of sin, and the destiny of those who commit sin. The law presents the explanation... It is the explanation that increases the knowledge and understanding, that is why we need to meditate on the Law, in order to understand the sin in all its forms.

 

[ContraMundum]

How can Paul teach that it was 'added to increase sin'?

Galatians 3:19

Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

Romans 5:20

The Law was given so that the trespass (sin) would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

It's a bit of a late Rabbinic myth/spin that the Torah was in existence eternally and that the world was created for it.

 

[Torah Emunah]

It's a bit of a late Rabbinic myth/spin that the Torah was in existence eternally and that the world was created for it.

But don't Christians believe that Jesus is the Torah made flesh, and that he is also G-d manifest in the flesh? If those beliefs are true, then according to their own doctrine, the Torah is eternal.

Obviously, I do not believe either of those assertions.

Can you please provide a proof text for your comment that it is "a late Rabbinic myth/spin that the Torah was in existence eternally and that the world was created for it.?"


Shalom

 

[ContraMundum]

But don't Christians believe that Jesus is the Torah made flesh, and that he is also G-d manifest in the flesh? If those beliefs are true, then according to their own doctrine, the Torah is eternal.

Actual Christians believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Word in this context is Divine (God's essence) and divinity exists always, even before creation. The Torah is a revelation from the Divine, however it is not Divine itself.

Can you please provide a proof text for your comment that it is "a late Rabbinic myth/spin that the Torah was in existence eternally and that the world was created for it.?"

Shalom

Which part? I can prove it is a Rabbinic spin- simply because it is not clearly and explicitly taught in the Torah itself, and is thus an interpretation (eg. a casting of opinion or meaning upon the text) We don't find that interpretation anywhere other than in traditional Rabbinic sources- none of which have a certain date of origin (other than during this CE) or warranty of accuracy. It is even taught that God consulted the Torah to create the universe. This of course is merely an elevation of Rabbinic authority by the Rabbinic authority. I realize that there's no end to pilpul on what all this means but at the end of the day it's rather self-serving of religious authorities to say that God used their book (which only they understand) to create the world- even if it's merely a metaphor. Psychologically speaking, it's their way of saying "submit".

 

[Torah Emunah]

Actual Christians believe that Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Word in this context is Divine (God's essence) and divinity exists always, even before creation. The Torah is a revelation from the Divine, however it is not Divine itself.

So only those who share this opinion are "actual" Christians? And how would you designate those who do not share this opinion?

Personaly, I do not believe mankind can know anything at all of G-d's essence. The finite can in no way comprehend the infinite. But that is another topic entirely. Would you mind if I posted some additional material on that concept?

Which part? I can prove it is a Rabbinic spin- simply because it is not clearly and explicitly taught in the Torah itself, and is thus an interpretation (eg. a casting of opinion or meaning upon the text) We don't find that interpretation anywhere other than in traditional Rabbinic sources- none of which have a certain date of origin (other than during this CE) or warranty of accuracy. It is even taught that God consulted the Torah to create the universe. This of course is merely an elevation of Rabbinic authority by the Rabbinic authority. I realize that there's no end to pilpul on what all this means but at the end of the day it's rather self-serving of religious authorities to say that God used their book (which only they understand) to create the world- even if it's merely a metaphor. Psychologically speaking, it's their way of saying "submit".

I have to disagree with the portion of your reply in the bold text above, in light of the first chapter of the Gospel of John, and several other New Testament passages.

I am familiar with the teaching contained in the portion of your reply that is in red text above. It is most certainly metaphoric in nature, to that we can agree (I think). Would you mind if I posted some additional material on that concept?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my comments.

Shalom

 

[visionary]

Can we separate God from His Word?

 

[Torah Emunah]

Can we separate God from His Word?

Can you be a little more specific please?


Shalom

 

[visionary]

And the word was God.

 

[ContraMundum]

So only those who share this opinion are "actual" Christians? And how would you designate those who do not share this opinion?

Heterodox or worse.

Personaly, I do not believe mankind can know anything at all of G-d's essence. The finite can in no way comprehend the infinite. But that is another topic entirely. Would you mind if I posted some additional material on that concept?

A) I agree. B) God has revealed some of His nature to us in scripture- we can only know the Divine essence through Divine self-disclosure.

I have to disagree with the portion of your reply in the bold text above, in light of the first chapter of the Gospel of John, and several other New Testament passages.

We can go into specifics if you like.

I am familiar with the teaching contained in the portion of your reply that is in red text above. It is most certainly metaphoric in nature, to that we can agree (I think). Would you mind if I posted some additional material on that concept?

I don't mind at all.

 

[Lulav]

How can Paul teach that it was 'added to increase sin'?



Romans 5:20

The Law was given so that the trespass (sin) would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Why would G-d want our sin to increase?

 

[Chicken Little]

I think the increase of sins measurement.
you can't judge men if there is no measurement right?
so this is about judgement not increases in amounts of our sins but just accurate and knowable judgements of it. that is what I think he is saying.
even then us knowing it is wrong is what is important .. the exact arguments over degrees of sins aren't necessary but the unrighteous only care about those fine lines because they have no intentions of keep any of them.
like I say God wrote 10-12 even 20 or so suggestions -laws and was the only one who kept them and man write warehouses full and keeps non of them.

 

[sahjimira]

Hmmm...I dont know if sin increased so much as our knowledge of it, unless the more we knew about it the more appealing it got to mess with it. The LAW was revealed to show us how to please God but really how we can avoid hurting ourselves. What a gift!

 

[Iscah]

Why would G-d want our sin to increase?

God doesn't want sin to increase, He wants it to decrease but the only way of decreasing sin is to make it known to the people that they are sinning so that they can stop sinning. The Torah did increase sin in that it allowed people to see that they were sinning much more than they thought they were. The Torah is there to instruct us what sin is and how to avoid it and rectify it.

 

[AbbaLove]

The law presents the explanation... It is the explanation that increases the knowledge and understanding, that is why we need to meditate on the Law, in order to understand the sin in all its forms.

Was it NOT possible for the Priests of Israel (during both Temple periods) to meditate on the Law "in order to understand sin in all its forms" and thus prevent Israel from practicing sin ?

Isaiah 5:4
What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?
Jeremiah 32:31
From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight.
Hosea 7:13
Woe to them, because they have strayed from me! Destruction to them, because they have rebelled against me! I long to redeem them but they speak about me falsely.

Luke 13:34
“Yerushalayim! Yerushalayim! You kill the prophets! You stone those who are sent to you! How often I wanted to gather your children, just as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but you refused!"

II Corinthians 11:24-26
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;…

 

[Soyeong]

How can Paul teach that it was 'added to increase sin'?

Galatians 3:19

Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.

Romans 5:20

The Law was given so that the trespass (sin) would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

My understanding is that the Torah is God's instructions for how to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct, and holiness, righteousness, and goodness have been characteristics of God since the beginning of the world. So the instructions that God gave to Moses are a reflection of God's character. The Torah was given primarily to instruct us to have a conduct that is in line with God's character, which consequently highlighted where our conduct was out of line and caused us to increase our sin in rebellion to it.