If this is True then why ...

daq · Feb 17, 2023

Clare73 said:
Jesus said it is a new ( Gr: kainos) covenant (Lk 22:20, 1 Co 11:25, Heb 8:13), not a renewed (Gr: anakainoo) covenant.

Arguing against that dogma with you again here would decimate this thread.

Clare73 · Feb 17, 2023

daq said:
Arguing against that dogma with you again here would decimate this thread.

You're free not to believe NT dogma of Lk 22:20, 1 Co 11:25, Heb 8:13. . .

Lulav · Feb 17, 2023

rturner76 said:
People love to worship Saturday but the point is to set aside a day for the Lord

No, I believe the point is to honor the day the LORD set aside and sanctified and made separate (HOLY) from the other 6 days.

daq · Feb 17, 2023

Clare73 said:
You're free not to believe NT dogma of Lk 22:20, 1 Co 11:25, Heb 8:13. . .

Of course we all know that everyone is free to believe whatever they will in a free country: which also obviously includes the fact that you are free to believe your own dogmas not based in much more than Strong's delusion if that is what you so choose to do. How do you like my play on words?

Please note that Strong's is capitalized and bear in mind that the Masoretic Hebrew text is only about 1000 years old. When the apostolic writings were penned neither James Strong nor the Masoretic pointed text existed. It is tantamount to word sorcery to divide one word into two based on a pointed commentary embedded within the text, which didn't even exist at the time of writing, so that you can change the definition of an adjective into the opposite meaning of its own root verb. Moreover it is buffoonery to force modern English grammar rules on ancient texts that were written before English ever existed.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
H2319 חָדָשׁ chadash (chaw-dawsh') adj.
new.
[from H2318]
KJV: fresh, new thing.
Root(s): H2318

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
H2318 חָדַשׁ chadash (chaw-dash') v.
1. to be new.
2. (causatively) to rebuild.
[a primitive root]
KJV: renew, repair.

Please note that the two Hebrew words above only differ by a single dot in a pointed text that is only 1000 years old and did not even exist when the apostolic writings were penned. Your trust is not in the scripture but in the Masoretes, their pointed commentary embedded into the Hebrew text 1000 years after the apostolic writings were penned, and James Strong.

End of discussion: believe what you will, and have a nice evening.

rturner76 · Feb 17, 2023

Lulav said:
No, I believe the point is to honor the day the LORD set aside and sanctified and made separate (HOLY) from the other 6 days.

THen that is why your denomination means so much to you. More for Saturday worship than sound doctrine.

Studyman · Feb 17, 2023

rturner76 said:
People love to worship Saturday but the point is to set aside a day for the Lord

According to what is written, God's Holy Sabbath that Jesus said was "Made for Man", is much more than a day of worship. This Day was Created by the Christ, the Rock of Israel, which is confirmed by HIS Own Words, "The Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath".

In the Holy Scriptures, that Paul said was able to one wise unto Salvation through Faith that was IN Christ, the Sabbath is defined as a "Fast" from the world. A day in which we learn from God in Faith, how to, among other things, to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

I am not personally comfortable signing on to an organized religious sect or business of this world, but am one who believes the God of the bible can and will reveal Himself to those who Seek Him. Without His Judgments, Commandments and Sabbaths, that
HE created for His people's own wellbeing, how can a man endure all the differing manmade religious philosophies, doctrines and deceptions Jesus warned us about. Especially from those "many" who come in His Name.

Truly the Christ didn't come to destroy the very Armor and Blessing that God and His Son created for His People. The New covenant wasn't for that purpose, of this I am sure.

rturner76 · Feb 17, 2023

Studyman said:
This Day was Created by the Christ, the Rock of Israel, which is confirmed by HIS Own Words, "The Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath"

Was that true when he allowed his dis to pluck grain from the fields on the Sabbath? Isn't that when Jesus said “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, would not immediately pull him out on Sabbath day?” Jesus likened the healing of the man with dropsy to pulling an animal out of a well. If the animal isn’t pulled out of the well, it will surely die. If saving the life of an animal is something worth “breaking a sweat over” on the Sabbath, how much more should we care for a person!!!"

Saturday is to be revered not worshipped. God only is to be worshipped.

Daniel Marsh · Feb 17, 2023

Lulav said:
The Old Covenant; all of it, every single command and ordinance, was surely cancelled.
That includes the

dietary restrictions,

sabbath observance,

sacrificial system,

and the 10 commandments

You can find similar words like this all over this forum, but this was a most recent declaration that brought all kinds of questions to me.

So if everything in the Old Covenant or the Torah was cancelled then why...

Do we still see Rainbows in the sky, a great sign of a promise the LORD made to all mankind? Found in Torah in Genesis 9

9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth. 11And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. 12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: 13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. 14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth. 17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

That sign is so important that, Did you know? there is one in heaven. Rev 4

behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So when the LORD GOD uses words like 'perpetual, everlasting we need to understand that he means it.

The LORD had a conversation with a man named Job or Iov and spoke of the rulings he gave to other parts of his creation (which is part of Torah) and asked him

Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?

Now you say that it isn't what you are talking about, instead the words spoken by the LORD to Moses for his People. The first we see that HE tried to speak them to the people but they were too frightened and asked Moses to go for them. To make sure there was no mistake that is was from the LORD HE wrote them himself , carved in stone. These (the second set) he told Moses to put into the Holiest of Holy places on earth, HIS throne, the Ark which is called the 'Ark of the Covenant' because that was the Ketubah made between the LORD (and Yeshua/Jesus as nothing was made that was made without him) and his chosen people.

This was to complete the instructions given to build the articles of the Tabernacle. They were accompanied by two witnesses, one of Priesthood (the rod of Aaron) and the provision by the LORD (the pot of manna).

Now through history the ark was stolen, returned, stolen again and today we don't know where it is (Ethiopia, likely a replica made by Solomon to accompany his son back with the Queen of Sheba) on Earth, but there is another place where it was seen where no one could steal it, make it disappear so no accounting can be made. That witness of the Ketuban/contract/Covenant made resides in heaven,

Rev 11:19

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark (Containing) His covenant was seen within HIS temple.

Where no one can say it's obsolete, where it is 'done away with', where it was cancelled, where it is no longer valid.

It still exists under the guardianship of GOD and his HOLY angels.

People have come against them on earth, especially in the US and demanded that they be torn down, why if they are no longer valid? Could it be guilt for not keeping them?

And you know whats really interesting is that the Ark of HIS Covenant is in his Temple and surrounded by that other covenantal sign, the Rainbow.

Rev 10 hints to us that it's still important to know who the creator is (what Shabbat is all about).

6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

Simple answer, the law shows what are sins, we are no longer under the law. We do things as unto the Lord. Romans 14

Studyman · Feb 17, 2023

rturner76 said:
Was that true when he allowed his dis to pluck grain from the fields on the Sabbath?

There is no Law of God against taking a walk on God's Holy Sabbath day and picking a blackberry or ear of corn or apple to eat along the way. If they picked the corn, then sold it on the street corner, then yes, that would be a Sin, and Jesus nor His Disciples would ever do such a thing. This law of the Pharisees is one of the commandments of men the Pharisees taught for doctrines. At least according to the Christ of the Bible.

rturner76 said:
Isn't that when Jesus said “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, would not immediately pull him out on Sabbath day?”

Again, there is no Law of God against helping an animal who falls in a pit on the Sabbath Day.

rturner76 said:
Jesus likened the healing of the man with dropsy to pulling an animal out of a well. If the animal isn’t pulled out of the well, it will surely die.

Again, you are deceived into believing the Pharisees were obeying God's Laws. Jesus said they were not, they were following and teaching their own religion, not God's.

The God of the Bible would never condone leaving a helpless animal in a pit, or refusing to help someone in need, because it was a Sabbath Day. If you studied for yourself, in obedience and honor towards God, you would see this Truth as well.

rturner76 said:
If saving the life of an animal is something worth “breaking a sweat over” on the Sabbath, how much more should we care for a person!!!"

Again, this is what Jesus meant when HE said to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. First, you are tricked into believing something about God that is a falsehood. Like, it was against God's Law to take a walk and eat a raspberry along the way on His Sabbath. Then, with this as your foundation, you go on to believe God actually required, by Law, to leave a poor donkey in a pit because it's a Sabbath Day. And even worse, that Jesus broke God's Sabbath, by healing a man that was sick, on the Sabbath. If you knew anything about the Sabbath, other than what you have been taught by this world's religions, you would know God's Sabbath is all about Healing. And that Jesus didn't transgress God's Sabbath even once.

rturner76 said:
Saturday is to be revered not worshipped. God only is to be worshipped.

On this we agree perfectly. Because I honored God, and Worship HIM, I reverence His instruction in Righteousness. I worship God every day. By definition, this means I respect and honor those days that HE separated, set apart and sanctified. A man doesn't need a religion to honor God in this way. They don't need a manmade shrine of worship, or a self-proclaimed "minister of righteousness" to honor and respect God. These are this world's religious traditions. I hope you will take some time and learn about what God actually teaches. If you honored Him with obedience, He would show you many things about His Word.

It is my hope that you will consider.

Bob S · Feb 18, 2023

Lulav said:
Messiah is not a Covenant just like Moses was not a covenant.

If you are choosing the New Covenant then what is your part in it? What did you agree to do to be part of it?

Believe Jesus is Messiah and Love others as He loves us. Jn15:9-14 1Jn3:19-24

HIM · Feb 18, 2023

Daniel Marsh said:
Simple answer, the law shows what are sins, we are no longer under the law. We do things as unto the Lord. Romans 14

Romans 14 has nothing to with what is being spoken of here.

HIM · Feb 18, 2023

daq said:
End of discussion: believe what you will, and have a nice evening.

Sad how often this is said here. Rather wanting really.....

daq · Feb 18, 2023

HIM said:
Sad how often this is said here. Rather wanting really.....

I don't see how your finger pointing has anything to do with the thread topic either. Please remove your finger from my eye. Attacking me also only serves to derail this thread: do you as an ambassador not know that when you judge others you are only comparing them to your superior image of yourself? And now that you have judged me to be inferior to your gracious and loving self, by making the judgment you have made against me, I find you to be repulsive. What good did that do you? Hope you are happy with the produce of your works.

HIM · Feb 18, 2023

daq said:
I don't see how your finger pointing has anything to do with the thread topic either. Please remove your finger from my eye. Attacking me also only serves to derail this thread: do you as an ambassador not know that when you judge others you are only comparing them to your superior image of yourself? And now that you have judged me to be inferior to your gracious and loving self, by making the judgment you have made against me, I find you to be repulsive. What good did that do you? Hope you are happy with the produce of your works.

You made a comment and the comment was addressed. I am not judging other than I find that comment rather wanting and a copout for the most part. It only serves the greater good when one party is acting out and has become a stumbling for themselves and others. And I did not see you one way or another until now. So with that being said, "End of discussion: believe what you will, and have a nice day"

daq · Feb 18, 2023

HIM said:
You made a comment and the comment was addressed. I am not judging other than I find that comment rather wanting and a copout for the most part. It only serves the greater good when one party is acting out and has become a stumbling for themselves and others. And I did not see you one way or another until now. So with that being said, "End of discussion: believe what you will, and have a nice day"

It is your judgment that is wanting, and not only that but falsehood, for anyone who wishes to play judge should first hear whatever evidence is available from all sides: and moreover my response here was not to all, but to Clare73. And it is clear enough from how I responded in that post to Clare73, which you responded to above, that she and I have discussed these things before this thread came about.

Did you go find the necessary evidence before you made your judgment that my response to her was wanting? In fact she and I have discussed this topic in much detail, and in that lengthy discussion she even rejected the Logos of the Son of Elohim in the parable of the wine-skins, wherein both neos and kainos are employed, and their meanings are expounded for anyone willing to see and hear.

Galatians 3 - shows New Covenant Gospel is before Sinai

In part or in it’s entirety Rom 12:3 says We all been given the measure of faith spoken of in Romans 10:8. He lighteth every man that cometh into the world. I understand that you might not have been following this conversation very closely; as you weren't involved in it; but I hinted on this...

www.christianforums.com

And that, no doubt, she did in favor of her own dogma. Therefore my response to her in this thread was not wanting, as you have falsely judged, for she and I already discussed the subject matter that she brought up in great deal elsewhere, before this thread. It is your false judgment that is the copout and extremely wanting because you made your judgment in utter ignorance of the background evidence that acquits me of your false charge.

Clare73 · Feb 18, 2023

daq said:
Of course we all know that everyone is free to believe whatever they will in a free country:

Irrelevant. . .you're free to think and believe whatever you will in an unfree country. . .no one controls your thoughts.

daq said:
which also obviously includes the fact that you are free to believe your own dogmas not based in much more than Strong's delusion if that is what you so choose to do. How do you like my play on words?

Nice play. . .however, I do not, and have never, used Strong's. . .try again.

daq said:
Please note that Strong's is capitalized and bear in mind that the Masoretic Hebrew text is only about 1000 years old. When the apostolic writings were penned neither James Strong nor the Masoretic pointed text existed. It is tantamount to word sorcery to divide one word into two based on a pointed commentary embedded within the text, which didn't even exist at the time of writing, so that you can change the definition of an adjective into the opposite meaning of its own root verb. Moreover it is buffoonery to force modern English grammar rules on ancient texts that were written before English ever existed.

Methinks your rationale is quite a good example of buffoonery.

daq said:
Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
H2319 חָדָשׁ chadash (chaw-dawsh') adj.
new.
[from H2318]
KJV: fresh, new thing.
Root(s): H2318

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
H2318 חָדַשׁ chadash (chaw-dash') v.
1. to be new.
2. (causatively) to rebuild.
[a primitive root]
KJV: renew, repair.

Please note that the two Hebrew words above only differ by a single dot in a pointed text that is only 1000 years old and did not even exist when the apostolic writings were penned. Your trust is not in the scripture but in the Masoretes, their pointed commentary embedded into the Hebrew text 1000 years after the apostolic writings were penned, and James Strong.

That's more abuse to hermeneutics than I will engage.

Please note that the NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew; i.e., the meaning of the NT is the meaning of the Greek.

daq said:
End of discussion: believe what you will, and have a nice evening.

Good decision. . .in light of the irrelevance of yours above.

Lulav · Feb 19, 2023

rturner76 said:
THen that is why your denomination means so much to you. More for Saturday worship than sound doctrine.

Sorry, but I don't live by a denomination but the word of GOD. Keeping the Sabbath (the seventh day starting at sundown on'friday' night) is honor towards my LORD and GOD. I would choose God's commandments and Honor to his sanctified Holy day(s) than any mans doctrine.

Lulav · Feb 19, 2023

rturner76 said:
People love to worship Saturday but the point is to set aside a day for the Lord

Take that and apply it thus.

I don't know if you celebrate yours or anyone's birthday which is technically a day, a specific day, the anniversary of your or someone else's birth into the world. So if you do and your family say, thinks to themselves, 'we don't have to honor him on his birthday, we'll just pick any old day and honor him then'.

What about a marriage anniversary? Would a wife like it if her husband forgot what day it way and decided to recognize it when ever he felt like it?

I see you are Catholic so I will ask you do you celebrate all the masses that are held at different times of the year or do you have the attitude that you'll do that whenever you want?

God is above all man's doings, and pointing to the Fact that he is the Creator by keeping this day holy is the least I can do for MY GOD.

Lulav · Feb 19, 2023

Bob S said:
Col 2:16-17 tells us we are not to judge others for not abiding by the old covenant laws of what we drink and eat, feast days, new moons or Sabbaths because they are shadows and Jesus is the reality. Jesus is what is important, not a bunch of rituals that are now shadows.

You do know that it was Jesus that made and commanded all those 'bunch of rituals'? That they were the Salvation plan made from the foundation of the earth. I would never speak so flippantly about God's appointed times, HIS HOLY Feasts.

The first is to uphold the CREATOR, The Sabbath. The next is the Passover, if not for that you would have no Jesus.
All other Passovers after the one in Egypt are a memorial to what was done there, how God began to teach his Salvation plan. The blood of the Lamb on the doorposts in obedience to what the LORD gave them to do in EGYPT before the giving of the Torah at the Mountain.

Who would scoff at that? It was the preview of what was to come, the enactment of Genesis 3:15.

Who would hate to have that celebrated?

Bob S said:
I know I am using the same arguments I and many have previously used. I do it in hopes that you too will see the light in them.

I'm sorry but your arguments do not contain God's light, and I'll leave it at that.

Bob S said:
Also, I do not agree with your reasoning as writing that I am separating Jesus from the Father. Jesus even said in John15:9-14 that He kept the Father's commands and we are to keep His commands. Actually, John in 1jn3:19-24 is reiterating Jesus words in Jn15.

But you are separating them or being totally dismissive and disrespectful.

John said this and it's important to remember when trying to divide God's word.

"1 In the beginning was the Word", - Jesus/Yeshua is the Word

"and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." - Yeshua was with Him and was and IS Him

"2 He was in the beginning with God." - Yeshua was there in the beginning with God, when He said, 'let there be LIGHT', He was there when he visited Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was there at the Mountain when the Covenant was made, - It was made by him.

He also participated in the Covenant made for Abraham's descendants. See that cutting of the animals in half was the ancient way to make a covenant, it was called the cutting of the covenant. But because the LORD (Father and SON) were making this covenant so it couldn't be broken, it was made between the two of them, while Abraham was in a deep sleep.

" 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made". -- This includes, the whole Creation, The Sabbath day sanctified on the Seventh day following Creation. It also means, the HOLY days of the LORD, the commandments, ordinances, mishpatim, and decrees set forth to Moses.

"4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men." --That is the light that should be followed.

So calling what Jesus was in one accord with the Father in all I've mentioned above, don't you see how disrespectful, if not blasphemous, saying something like this is?

"not a bunch of rituals"

Lulav · Feb 19, 2023

Bob S said:
No I don't think you said that and it's well published that Israel did time and again which is why we have the LORD time and again calling to them through the prophets.
But saying that once it became clear makes it look as if the Almighty isn't omniscient which I'm 110% sure He is.
God knows the beginning to the end. It is all part of His plan of salvation devised before the foundation of the World. No one is a puppet, but God knows everything about each of us and how we will respond as we go through life.

Do you really think he didn't know what each and every one of the children of Israel would do their whole lives?
What gave you that idea?

You did, you said : "In this case once it became clear the Israel would never meet the requirements, what was to be perpetual ended."

Bob S said:
I'm sorry but those are about life, and keeping God's commandments does the same.
Why would you deny that Jesus' promises are not about life eternal? Keeping all the laws given to Israel and those before them will not save anyone. Where did you get the idea that any of us has the ability to keep laws? Remember, we are all sinners, not saved because of anything we do, but by what Jesus did for us.

Why are you speaking of Salvation? That is not part of this discussion. This is where people get confused. Keeping the Torah of GOD/YESHUA is not about Salvation it is about Loving them.

Bob S said:
Jesus spoke this:

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
That is the reason scripture is so adamant in telling us faith without good deeds is dead. We can measure some things about ourselves. What we do for others is one of those things we are able to measure.

Do you know how many 'good deeds' are in the Torah?

If this is True then why ...

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