If they cannot control...

[Grishnak]

Ok, I admit right off that frustration is fueling this thread.
I come in here day after day and seeing post after post of people giving advice that SEEMS to sound scriptural and at the very least has a facade of common sense, then looking at my bible Im left sitting her shaking my head almost with grief.

I chose this particular theme, but it is a symtom of the problem, not the cause.

Time after time someone comes in here, there is a thread currently, talking about their plans to marry and also having sexual desires and urges that cause them to come in here for advice asking if its ok for them to go ahead and marry over sexual desires for their betrothed.

Now, some of you give very direct, SCRIPTUAL responses.
But there is another group who ignores what the bible ACTAULLY says and you just rely on what you ''feel'' to be the best advice to give.

Heres a little scenario.


Amy: Im planning to marry in 6 months and I love my fiance very much.
One problem is when we spend time together, things get a bit heated and we come very close to haivng sex. The desire is far too great sometimes.
My question is "is it ok to just go ahead and marry over sexual desire since we are going to marry anyway?"


Now, as I said, SOME here actaully give SCRIPTURAL advice.
But all too often I see some silly comment like ''if you cant control, then its wrong'' or ''God will help you control'' or "you cant marry for lust" or some nonsense that is completely out of line with the advice PAUL gave.

Lets look at what the BIBLE says, shall we?

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
(1Co 7:1-2 KJV)

To AVOID fornication, let each man have is own wife and vice versa.
Why doesnt Paul just say ''ask God and He will keep you from feeling sexual desire?"
Was Paul an idiot or a man inspired by the Spirit of God?

and here agian:

I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
(1Co 7:8-9 KJV)

A man GOD has assigned to instruct us says it is better to marry than deal with this passion.

Very specifically PAUL, the apostle to the gentiles, states that if one cannot control oneself with ones betrothed, then go ahead and marry.

but every time someone asks this question, and endless supply of nonscriptural advice is provided making this person feel as if God is required to come to thier rescue and keep them from feeling the desires HE put there in them to begin with.

Folks, PAUL says if they cannot contain LET THEM MARRY.

I submit that ANY of you who advise otherwise in this type of situation for ANY reason, and regardless of the common sense advice you provide, are NOT in line with scripture and need to be sure that you are before you speak.


Now, as I said, this is only a symptom, not the cause.
This thread was fueled by another where someone stated ''the word of God says'' then they failed to provide any scrpture to show us that Gods word says.

My opinion is that if we're going to advise people on things pertaining to Gods union of marriage, then we darned well better be sure that the advice we give IS SCRIPTURAL or just keep our opinoins to ourselves.

In telling this betrothed person who is dealing with desire that they are marrying for lust, we are outright defying what God told PAUL to instruct us.

People, if someone comes in here asking for advice on a relationship matter, please take the time to see what the BIBLE teaches plainly on the matter, then REGARDLESS of YOUR personal opinoin, STICK TO WHAT GOD SAYS when you advise.



/rant

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Yeah. Marry so you can go ahead and get laid already. Cause that's all you really want anyway.

 

[Born_to_try]

I think you've made a good point. Paul DOES plainly say those verses in the Bible, therefore shouldn't we heed them?
My opinion is.. yes, self control must be obtained and learnt. It's a fruit of the Spirit that God gives us.
But perhaps in certain situations, particularly when the couple is set to be married anyway -if the date can be brought forward in order to keep themselves completely pure then -why not?
As long as EVERYTHING is brought to the Lord in prayer, and someone asks the will of God be done in their life, why shouldn't these verses from Corinthians bare relevence in some people's situations?

 

[gweneviere]

Well, as a person who usually uses scripture to give advice, I have run into this problem many times on this site. I think people always want to give good advice, and don't always know where the scripture is to refer to. Also, I have seen that many people reiterate what a pastor or other church leader has said. Rather than base their advice on scripture, they base it on what someone said, and it often gets twisted in translation.

People have a right to say something that's wrong. I think what you have to do is realize that they have good intentions, and maybe an adversarial response from you isn't the right way to make them aware of their error. Maybe the solution is to just be polite and ask for the scripture reference for their statement. Maybe if you give them the chance to go look it up they'll come back and say "Hey, guess what, I coulldn't find it in scripture. I must have been mistaken."

Try to see the intent behind the advice, and not get too frustrated with other people's mistakes. Sometimes people just don't see that they are making a mistake yet. Try to pick them up kindly.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

 

[Grishnak]

Yeah. Marry so you can go ahead and get laid already. Cause that's all you really want anyway.

hmm

So you think that 2 people who are in love and planning to get married in 2 years are just wanting to ''get laid'' if they choose to marry sooner ''to avoid fornication''?

Is Paul a representative of God and His will or not?

 

[Grishnak]

I think you've made a good point. Paul DOES plainly say those verses in the Bible, therefore shouldn't we heed them?
My opinion is.. yes, self control must be obtained and learnt. It's a fruit of the Spirit that God gives us.
But perhaps in certain situations, particularly when the couple is set to be married anyway -if the date can be brought forward in order to keep themselves completely pure then -why not?
As long as EVERYTHING is brought to the Lord in prayer, and someone asks the will of God be done in their life, why shouldn't these verses from Corinthians bare relevence in some people's situations?

amen.
Couldnt agree more.

Its sad, but I think Paul may have been one of the few amoung us who wouldnt try to deny that as human beings we DO have desires and they can be a bit out of control.

Possibly if more people would just be honest and admit it and allow for others to admit it, then we could all agree that what Paul said is good advice....instead of pushing our own thoughts on the matter, then pretending they are scripturallly sound and making some young couple bound to be married anyway feel as if they are committing some mortal sin if they cannot ''contain''.

 

[Grishnak]

Well, as a person who usually uses scripture to give advice, I have run into this problem many times on this site. I think people always want to give good advice, and don't always know where the scripture is to refer to. Also, I have seen that many people reiterate what a pastor or other church leader has said. Rather than base their advice on scripture, they base it on what someone said, and it often gets twisted in translation.

agreed.
But advice is best kept to oneself sometimes unless one states plainly that this is only their opinoin (as some do) and may or may not agree with scripture.

People have a right to say something that's wrong. I think what you have to do is realize that they have good intentions, and maybe an adversarial response from you isn't the right way to make them aware of their error.

Is it better to mislead someone?
If we were dealing with Highschool test answers here, Id say ''have at it''.
but the bible isnt a toy and the direction is gives isnt just a ''good idea''

Recently, in another thread, someone said ''Gods word says so''.
This person used this directoin in such a way as to cause someone to view something entirely different than what the example in the bible shows.

Now, you can be relaxed about it and say its ''ok to say something wrong'', but when this something ''wrong'' teaches something that is unscriptural, then its not just something to take casually.

There is quite a bit in the bible about adhering to sound doctrine, sound teachings.
When this advice goes against those sound teachings, then the person giving it is accountable for possibly misleading someone.

The scriptures say...
''Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more severely.
(Jam 3:1 ISV)
Now, not many are teachers in reality, but we are responsible if we cause someone to stumble in their walk.
Bad advice, especially that passed off as scriptural when it is not, does just that.

Sorry, but I think we all should be checking our bibles before we advise.
Far too many times in here people advise directly against sound teachings using ''common sense'' instead.
Sometimes that works, such as in a case of an abused woman filing for divorce.
But many other times, as in the other thread, it just serves to confuse people who truley want to know what God would have them do.

Maybe the solution is to just be polite and ask for the scripture reference for their statement. Maybe if you give them the chance to go look it up they'll come back and say "Hey, guess what, I coulldn't find it in scripture. I must have been mistaken."

And what about those who do this daily?
Are we to constantly be on the lookout for the ones that do?
Shouldnt they take a hint and actually pick up a bible BEFORE they speak next time?

Try to see the intent behind the advice, and not get too frustrated with other people's mistakes. Sometimes people just don't see that they are making a mistake yet. Try to pick them up kindly.

Then my point is made.
If they arent that well versed, then they should be far slower to advise using ''common sense'' and take the risk of misleading someone.
And in the other thread, this person was VERY insistant that they were correct, when indeed, they were not.
That is common in here.
People make absolute assertions and then get beligerant about it, and no amount of ''picking them up kindly'' seems to suffice.

In the end all thats left to do is expose the lie/error and hope one doesnt offend everyone or incur the wrath of moderation in the process.

James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(2Ti 4:3-4 KJV)


and youre out of context.
Im not judging anyone.
I am stating that too many are far too quick to offer advice, then make off like its scriptural.
There are a LOT of people in here that dont read their bibles who will just assume that when another christian gives them advice that it is actaully in the bible. ESPECIALLY if this person says ''Gods word says so'' whether it actaully say so or not.
These people can easily fall into error and those who are advising are incorrectly are directly responsible.

 

[InTheFlame]

Grishnak, I think you have a good point. It's the application that concerns me... because do we really know whether someone CAN NOT control their desire, or simply doesn't want to? See, I think short engagements are smart (under six months, preferably). But I think marriages rushed into out of a selfish desire for sexual pleasure, can cause a lot of unnecessary pain. So I try to distinguish between the two, and advise (generally with an 'I think' or 'my opinion' tacked on) accordingly. I don't think this is unbiblical. Do you?

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I think that engagements should NOT be made (actually dating should not occur between a couple at ALL, actually), until someone has clearly (without romanticism clouding over) looked at the person their interacting with rationally, and be able to pinpoint behaviours and characteristics of that person, in such a way that they can make a rational decision as to whether this person is good for them long-term or not. I also believe a person should also be VERY clear on their own beliefs and opinions and character (and flaws that come along with this) before they even consider pursuing anyone else romantically (how on earth are you supposed to know if you are going to 'blend' well with another person, if you don't even REALLY know yourself). I honestly believe that teenagers are not adequately equipped enough to navigate a relationship safely (because they have yet to fully understand themselves yet - cos they are still in the middle of 'hormone' city).

The best relationship I've had (the one I had now) was when I took myself away from the person romantically for a decent amount of time, and really worked out where I sat with myself and where my flaws were, and then started looking unbiasedly at the other person to see if we could make a marriage work. Once I took romance out of the equation in our relationship, it made it much easier to judge his character and beliefs and whether they were something I wanted around me for the rest of my life.

The thing that annoys me is when I see people with what LOOKS like a belief that 'marriage will help with my problems with self-control'. It looks like people believe self-control stops once you get married, and that it isn't needed anymore. That just sounds so dumb to me! Self-control isn't necessarily about sex, and I don't see it becoming redundant after marriage.

Going into marriage with an approach like 'hurrying up our marriage will help me seeing I can't be self-controlled' just seems like an iceberg waiting to hit, in my opinion.

Sasch

 

[Grishnak]

Grishnak, I think you have a good point. It's the application that concerns me... because do we really know whether someone CAN NOT control their desire, or simply doesn't want to?

Good point.
Now, if someone presented this, then Id agree wholeheartedly.
But much of what we see is advice given in full contradiction of scripture.

See, I think short engagements are smart (under six months, preferably).

Agreed.
I think a year was the standard in Jewish custom, but I could be wrong.

But I think marriages rushed into out of a selfish desire for sexual pleasure, can cause a lot of unnecessary pain. So I try to distinguish between the two, and advise (generally with an 'I think' or 'my opinion' tacked on) accordingly. I don't think this is unbiblical. Do you?

I think what Paul thought.
That if the 2 are already planning to marry and cannot contain, that they should marry (coming together as one flesh after making a marital covenant together).

This is assuming the 2 were going to marry in the first place.

Lets not beat around the bush folks.
Very few people marry who dont have sex in their minds there somewhere.
Some are just more ready for it than others.
It doesnt make them wrong, and Paul shows this is true.

 

[Grishnak]

Ill add one to that.

Personally I feel that EVERY couple before even committing to marry should spend at least one year and preferably 2 years having no physical contact at all, but only permitting conversation.

I know that my first two maraiges were a total sham as I didnt even know either of them.
And I had known the second wife for a few years before we married.
She was my best friends sister.
But I didnt really ''know'' either of them.

With Laura, we spent about 10 months just talking every single day on IM.
I didnt even know what she looked like for a while.
I got to spend good time just talking to her, learning about her personality on a daily basis without the physical attraction clouding things over.


At one point she made a comment that made me beleive she was very obese.
I loved her personality so much that this didnt matter in the least. NOt that it would have anyway, the first two wives put on a LOT of weight.

But then I came and met Laura.
Because of this foundation of getting to know each other, even tho it was a bit odd at first, we had lots to talk about (except when she was OCDing )

We have taken nearly 2 years to slowly build up a loving relationship.

If I had only known in younger years that love could be like this, so warm and so strong.....Id never had married until I could have had this.

But once ''engaged'' then I think Pauls word are very good.
If these 2 have went thru the process of getting to know one another and are having trouble now containing, then let them marry.

I think that engagements should NOT be made (actually dating should not occur between a couple at ALL, actually), until someone has clearly (without romanticism clouding over) looked at the person their interacting with rationally, and be able to pinpoint behaviours and characteristics of that person, in such a way that they can make a rational decision as to whether this person is good for them long-term or not. I also believe a person should also be VERY clear on their own beliefs and opinions and character (and flaws that come along with this) before they even consider pursuing anyone else romantically (how on earth are you supposed to know if you are going to 'blend' well with another person, if you don't even REALLY know yourself). I honestly believe that teenagers are not adequately equipped enough to navigate a relationship safely (because they have yet to fully understand themselves yet - cos they are still in the middle of 'hormone' city).

The best relationship I've had (the one I had now) was when I took myself away from the person romantically for a decent amount of time, and really worked out where I sat with myself and where my flaws were, and then started looking unbiasedly at the other person to see if we could make a marriage work. Once I took romance out of the equation in our relationship, it made it much easier to judge his character and beliefs and whether they were something I wanted around me for the rest of my life.

The thing that annoys me is when I see people with what LOOKS like a belief that 'marriage will help with my problems with self-control'. It looks like people believe self-control stops once you get married, and that it isn't needed anymore. That just sounds so dumb to me! Self-control isn't necessarily about sex, and I don't see it becoming redundant after marriage.

Going into marriage with an approach like 'hurrying up our marriage will help me seeing I can't be self-controlled' just seems like an iceberg waiting to hit, in my opinion.

Sasch

 

[gweneviere]

Please don't misunderstand what I was saying before. My point was basically that it's good to make people aware of their mistakes, like posting this thread so people will read it, but it won't make everyone stop, and we will always have to deal with people who do it. The scripture I quoted was more meant for the do not begrudge part. The best way for people to learn about it is to make them aware. Perhaps they are not rooted the same way you are, going to the Bible and making sure the scripture is there. I totally agree with you about this, and I hope this thread will make people more aware of the issue.

Also, when people ask for advice, they should know not to take what other people say absolutely, but to pray and study it for themselves. This is one thing that people should learn in their own church setting from their pastor, but not everyone does.

Again, I was just proposing that we'll always have to deal with people like this, and the best way to fix it is to just make people more aware, and pray for them, because we can't really beat people into submission , we can only try to lead them in the right way. I hope you understand what I meant, as I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[Grishnak]

Also, when people ask for advice, they should know not to take what other people say absolutely

This is the biggext concern I have.
There are a LOT of people who will jump at the first piece of advice or directoin offered them that sounds reasonable.
Many fall into false teachings because of this.

I guess all that one would ask is that if CHRISTIANS are going to use the words ''Gods word says'' that they actually find a RELEVANT passage to present when doing so.

If not, then it would be preferable that they state that they ''believe'' the bible may say as much or that this is just their thoughts.

Its kind of disheartening to see someone force feeding their own doctrine on someone with the ''God says'' line when in fact God said nothing of the sort.

I just think as christians we ALL need to be far more watchful of our words and direction as far as making a proclaimation for God Himself.

Honestly, I know the root of my issue with this.
It was being asked if I didnt know what Gods word says and that it says basically that I was going to hell if I didnt speak in tongues about 20 years or so ago.
I was pretty new at all this, but it really shook me pretty hard.

Now, knowing that this man who said this should never have taken that position behind the pulpit, Im not as likely to fall for such a line. But there are a great many others who are new to the faith who WILL listen when another christian says something is most definetly scriptural.

Myself, I hope God holds these individuals responsilbe as His word seems to indicate He will.

 

[Johnnz]

Grishnak has made a very good point. But the issues are not quite that simple. There are several factors that contribute to the struggles many Christians have with sexual issues - just look at all the sex related posts and their readership.

1 There is an increasingly long period today bewteen sexual maturity and marriage. This is a very modern phenomenon. Paul lived in a society where a bride was chosen, usually by the guy, the wedding arranged and that was it. Many societies still do just this. This factor does not excuse lax morals, but it must be addressed, as we are currently ingnoring Paul's advice by interposing a long time before marriage.

2. The practice of dating as we know it today is another modern freedom. I am not at all convinced that this is the pattern for Christians. I am aware that many Christians date in order to become sexually active. Little wonder some people say they struggle with traditional Christian values. Saacha, in her usual wise way, offers another and much healthier view on intersex relationships.

3. Christians are not that happy with sex in general. There are isiues that need debate and exploration that are just ignored, or drowned by dogmatic assertions. There is a credibility gap within the Christian community that needs to be worked through, especially in the light of my first point.

4. Marriage for sex is a pretty poor basis to start with. Look at the many sad stories on this forum of abuse, pornography, lovelesness, male selfishness, female caprice, adultery etc that is happening within Christian marriages. Sex is an intimate activity, but it can lead to a false sense of intimacy. The real issues of a sound relationship are ignored - real friendshp, thorough exploration of values, common interests values and goals, and spiritual consistency for example. Sex is the bonus on top of these elements within a marriage, Then sex really sings over many years, and does not become an empty activity in a loveless marriage.

John
NZ

 

[Grishnak]

Sex is an intimate activity, but it can lead to a false sense of intimacy.

amen to that.
Thats what caused 2 failed marriages. I married because I hadnt taken enough time to get to know them and then when sex came BEFORE the covenant, I assumed we were in love and really would make it work.

The real issues of a sound relationship are ignored - real friendshp, thorough exploration of values, common interests values and goals, and spiritual consistency for example.

Amen.
I am so elated that God used the internet for Laura and I to start with.
Only talking to her for giong on a year, every day, sometimes for up to 10 straight hours, gave us a chance to really get to know each other.
Then moving here and spending another half a year, and most of that time without even so much as a kiss, getting to know her more in person, has been such a blessing.

We know every little detail of each other, since we had no choice but to learn.
I know in my heart that THIS is how God intended marriage to be. Not the way it was before.

But I will add that if we had planned to marry say in a year, but were becoming more and more attracted to each other, that we would not be wrong or sinning at this point to have just went ahead and become man and wife now, since we knew already that we were definetly going to be married.

I think Pauls advice fits perfectly when christianly common sense is there.
Christians shouldnt be just marrying frivolously to the first person who offers them sex.
As christians, we should take quite a bit of time to be sure this person is one that is going to be a wondeful spouse.
And once it is established that that is the case, then they do not sin in just marrying to avoid fornication.