If there was no death before the Fall...

[Tinker Grey]

YECs don't think plants are alive to begin with.

Hmm ... I didn't know that was a general rule, though we did have a member that used to argue that.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Was it ever alive?

You don't think plants are alive?

 

[Arc F1]

You don't think plants are alive?

They grow but they aren't alive. They have no soul.

 

[Tinker Grey]

They grow but they aren't alive. They have no soul.

If you cut a tree down, you didn't kill it?

I don't think there are any scientists that would agree with you. As you can't demonstrate that you (or anyone) has a soul, it really can't be a criterion for life.

ETA: As I recall, most believers don't think animals have souls. Are your pets alive?

 

[Tree of Life]

If you cut a tree down, you didn't kill it?

I don't think there are any scientists that would agree with you. As you can't demonstrate that you (or anyone) has a soul, it really can't be a criterion for life.

It's possible that the Biblical concepts of life and death don't perfectly align with the scientific concepts of life and death. When Paul says that death came into the world because of sin, maybe he was not talking about what we know as biological death. Maybe he was talking about something more like spiritual death - the death of a person.

When a tree dies there is a biological death that occurs according to how we have defined biological life and death. But a person does not die when a tree dies.

 

[Arc F1]

If you cut a tree down, you didn't kill it?

I don't think there are any scientists that would agree with you. As you can't demonstrate that you (or anyone) has a soul, it really can't be a criterion for life.

I know it all boils down to definition. They aren't alive as humans are. Even the word plant has to be defined. A plant could be a place of manufacturing. That's way too much to get into. I did however find a plant with a sole.

http://felcomarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/logo-sole-plants-1000.png

 

[Tinker Grey]

@Tree of Life, @Arc F1

I'd have thought that the OP implies biological death.

 

[atpollard]

If Adam ate a carrot, did the plant die?

If Adam was a fruitivore, then he didn’t eat a carrot.
If the carrot grew in a clump and Adam ate only some of the clump, then the plant didn’t die.
If Adam ate most of the tuber of the carrot and allowed the remaining portion to reroot (like most children have done in school), then the plant did not die.

There are many assumptions required for a carrot to die in Eden because Adam ate it.

 

[atpollard]

If you cut a tree down, you didn't kill it?

I don't think there are any scientists that would agree with you. As you can't demonstrate that you (or anyone) has a soul, it really can't be a criterion for life.

ETA: As I recall, most believers don't think animals have souls. Are your pets alive?

Setting aside the whole issue of souls (and there may be some highly debated evidence that one can weigh a soul as a person dies) ...

I can state with complete certainty that cutting down a tree does not kill it. A hurricane snapped a tree in our yard in half and we cut it down to a 12” high stump. A dozen new trunks sprang from that stump which I thinned down to the largest 5 spaced around the stump. As I stare out my window, those 5 trunks form a green tree about 30 feet tall and 20 feet in diameter. Clearly that tree IS NOT DEAD.

(You may send scientists to investigate if you feel it necessary).

 

[Tinker Grey]

Setting aside the whole issue of souls (and there may be some highly debated evidence that one can weigh a soul as a person dies) ...

I can state with complete certainty that cutting down a tree does not kill it. A hurricane snapped a tree in our yard in half and we cut it down to a 12” high stump. A dozen new trunks sprang from that stump which I thinned down to the largest 5 spaced around the stump. As I stare out my window, those 5 trunks form a green tree about 30 feet tall and 20 feet in diameter. Clearly that tree IS NOT DEAD.

(You may send scientists to investigate if you feel it necessary).

But it is possible to kill a tree, right? That is, a tree is alive, right?

 

[atpollard]

But it is possible to kill a tree, right? That is, a tree is alive, right?

Yes.
Lightning, Copper Nails, and Round-Up are all good candidates for the task.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes.
Lightning, Copper Nails, and Round-Up are all good candidates for the task.

And if you eat a carrot, which involve uprooting the plant since the carrot is the root of the plant, you've killed it.

Understand that there is a "IF" here. I'm not saying that Adam did eat carrots but if he did, he'd have killed it.

If Adam were to have picked an apple, would not the apple be dead? Would it not rot?

Perhaps in the garden, not. But this is the gist of the OP. How'd "no death" prior to the fall work?

 

[Tree of Life]

@Tree of Life, @Arc F1

I'd have thought that the OP implies biological death.

The OP is asking about biological death. But one response could be that the Bible does not claim that biological death did not exist before the fall. Perhaps the OP has misunderstood the creationist position.

 

[Tinker Grey]

The OP is asking about biological death. But one response could be that the Bible does not claim that biological death did not exist before the fall. Perhaps the OP has misunderstood the creationist position.

I understand that. But there are some that don't agree with that. And it seems to me that the OP is for them.

 

[Sheila Davis]

... how does the biology of that work? What keeps living things from dying?

God himself is eternal, and eternal being with his capabilities can give eternal life to whom or what he chooses.

Jesus said it God the Father is Spirit - Spirit cannot be seen - what man calls energy cannot be seen. I see God as **living energy** - capable of thought and action - and as science says - energy cannot be created, nor can energy be destroyed, such as with God the Father; but energy can change from this form to another.
Scripture indicates that the spirit is eternal, Paul said once the spirit leaves the body it goes back to the one who gave it. The spirits within these flesh bodies are eternal, living energy, given by God the Father, through Yeshua /Jesus, God the Son.

God has the knowledge to create all things seen in the universe - to plant one particular planet (earth/Eden) with seeds that brought forth life. According to scripture, Genesis 3:22, the fruit of the Tree of Life is what gave mankind eternal life and according to Revelations 22:2-3 once again the Tree of Life will give eternity to those who are granted Redemption. The fruit of the tree of life was/is for the healing of the flesh body. Just like plants, herbs are used for medicines - has been throughout the centuries of men. The fruit from the Tree of Life could be considered the cure all or the ultimate medicine - that represents Yeshua /Jesus. That's why God put Adam out and took the tree - so man couldn't eat from it again and live forever in sin.

... how does the biology of that work? What keeps living things from dying?

 

[atpollard]

And if you eat a carrot, which involve uprooting the plant since the carrot is the root of the plant, you've killed it.

No, the carrot is not the root. The carrot is the tuber that stores energy for the plant. Furthermore, as any elementary school science class will tell you, if you place the top portion of the carrot in water or soil it will regrow from just that little nub. I would call the carrot plant “still alive”, however you are free to describe the carrot plant as “resurrected” if you are more spiritually inclined.

If Adam were to have picked an apple, would not the apple be dead? Would it not rot?

Your analogy is like arguing that cutting off my hair means that my hair is dead ... while technically correct, you have missed the fact that the Apple Tree is just fine.

 

[Andrewn]

-

 

[Tinker Grey]

Your analogy is like arguing that cutting off my hair means that my hair is dead ... while technically correct, you have missed the fact that the Apple Tree is just fine.

So you admit there was death in the Garden of Eden. ("Technically correct ... the best kind of correct.")

 

[atpollard]

So you admit there was death in the Garden of Eden. ("Technically correct ... the best kind of correct.")

No.
You would be technically correct that my hair, cut off, is dead ... but the question of whether an apple (or a leaf) has a life independent of the tree of which it is a part is more metaphysics (soul) and philosophy than science.

 

[Tinker Grey]

No.
You would be technically correct that my hair, cut off, is dead ... but the question of whether an apple (or a leaf) has a life independent of the tree of which it is a part is more metaphysics (soul) and philosophy than science.

The act of picking an apple removes it's source of life. There is nothing sustaining it. It is dead.

The act of eating a carrot necessarily uproots the plant. Eating the root (the carrot) kills the plant.

So answer the OP. Whether or not you quibble with me on these points, no one has addressed how this "no death" thing worked.