If there was God, could proof exist, and not demand more than freedom?

[Gottservant]

You are free, correct?

And being free, you are able to think of yourself, perhaps also, yourself at work for others, not so?

And if there was a God, who beforehand had ensured that your desire for Spirit by which to work, would be answered, within the means you have available to you to bear up that work, with that Spirit, according to the freedom you have... would that God not then be able, while you were committing your freedom, working, and bearing up that Spirit, and undoubtedly expecting more, as a result, then be able to force you to think of Him?

Would proof not enable God to force you to think of Him?

(you may need to read the previous two paragraphs again, and perhaps choose)

Would God gain anything, if he could indeed force you to think of Him, with proof? Anything of eternal value (He lives forever?)?

Or do you think that there can be evidence (of anything) which nevertheless you may ignore? And this is not lying to yourself? Honestly? You can see evidence and still not believe it?

So what is it? Do you want proof? Are you tired of questioning God? Or perhaps you are suicidal in your faith toward God, now? And you want evidence? Because you want Him to force you to think of Him? Really? To what end?

Do you honestly think God could send His Son to die for you and then *poof* give you the evidence you need to believe in Him regardless? Are you mad?

Don't be mad, if you can help it: believe God!

 

[Gottservant]

If you are God, is it not enough to ensure Man is free?

 

[The Engineer]

You are free, correct?

Free of what? Free in what sense?

And being free, you are able to think of yourself, perhaps also, yourself at work for others, not so?

You mean, I can think for myself? Yes, that's true.

And if there was a God, who beforehand had ensured that your desire for Spirit by which to work, would be answered, within the means you have available to you to bear up that work, with that Spirit, according to the freedom you have... would that God not then be able, while you were committing your freedom, working, and bearing up that Spirit, and undoubtedly expecting more, as a result, then be able to force you to think of Him?

Has anyone really been far even as decided to go use even want to do look more like?

Would proof not enable God to force you to think of Him?

Yes. So?

(you may need to read the previous two paragraphs again, and perhaps choose)

Where am I?

Would God gain anything, if he could indeed force you to think of Him, with proof? Anything of eternal value (He lives forever?)?

We would gain eternal salvation if he forced us to believe in him, if that answers your question. He wouldn't gain anything, either way.

Or do you think that there can be evidence (of anything) which nevertheless you may ignore? And this is not lying to yourself? Honestly? You can see evidence and still not believe it?

Except we see no evidence.

So what is it? Do you want proof?

If he exists, yes.

Are you tired of questioning God? Or perhaps you are suicidal in your faith toward God, now? And you want evidence? Because you want Him to force you to think of Him? Really? To what end?

To get to heaven, maybe?

Do you honestly think God could send His Son to die for you and then *poof* give you the evidence you need to believe in Him regardless?

Yes.

Are you mad?

No.

Don't be mad, if you can help it: believe God!

No.

 

[Paradoxum]

You are free, correct?

Maybe.

And being free, you are able to think of yourself, perhaps also, yourself at work for others, not so?

I am able to think for myself working for others? What does that mean?

And if there was a God, who beforehand had ensured that your desire for Spirit by which to work, would be answered, within the means you have available to you to bear up that work, with that Spirit, according to the freedom you have... would that God not then be able, while you were committing your freedom, working, and bearing up that Spirit, and undoubtedly expecting more, as a result, then be able to force you to think of Him?

This is one giant sentence and I don't understand what it means.

 

[quatona]

You are free, correct?

Free of/from what?

And being free, you are able to think of yourself, perhaps also, yourself at work for others, not so?

And if there was a God, who beforehand had ensured that your desire for Spirit by which to work, would be answered, within the means you have available to you to bear up that work, with that Spirit, according to the freedom you have... would that God not then be able, while you were committing your freedom, working, and bearing up that Spirit, and undoubtedly expecting more, as a result, then be able to force you to think of Him?

Would proof not enable God to force you to think of Him?

Yes, probably - in the same way He "forces" me to think of everything else which is evidently existing. I wouldn´t call it "forcing" exactly, that I can´t help thinking of the stuff and persons that exist around me.

Would God gain anything, if he could indeed force you to think of Him, with proof? Anything of eternal value (He lives forever?)?

Depends on what you think God wants to gain in general, and what he wanted to gain from creating. That´s a very fundamental question that I think doesn´t match very well with the Christian God concept of a perfect, omni-all, self-existing, eternal, unchanging entity: How can such an entity possibly develop a desire, a wish, a want?

Or do you think that there can be evidence (of anything) which nevertheless you may ignore? And this is not lying to yourself? Honestly? You can see evidence and still not believe it?

No, not if the evidence is strong enough.

So what is it? Do you want proof? Are you tired of questioning God? Or perhaps you are suicidal in your faith toward God, now? And you want evidence? Because you want Him to force you to think of Him? Really? To what end?

Again, I fail to see how having unquestionable evidence of the existence of someone/something qualifies as "force". I find it quite comfortable and not some kind of "force" at all that the existence of e.g. my friends has so much evidence to it that I can´t help believing they exist.

Do you honestly think God could send His Son to die for you and then *poof* give you the evidence you need to believe in Him regardless? Are you mad?

Sorry, you have lost me here. I´m not understanding what the problem is.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Would proof not enable God to force you to think of Him?

I don't understand this idea of the proof of some claim "forcing" me to think something as if that were something bad, like being held up at gunpoint. I'm not trying to be "free" from my own judgment! That is like asking someone to be "free" from sanity.

Would God gain anything, if he could indeed force you to think of Him, with proof? Anything of eternal value (He lives forever?)?

Depends on the religion, I suppose.

And this is not lying to yourself? Honestly? You can see evidence and still not believe it?

So far, the evidence has been very poor.

So what is it? Do you want proof?

Funnily enough, yes. Don't feel bad. I want proof of Zeus, Odin, Brahman, and body thetans as well. I'm an equal opportunity proofer.

Are you tired of questioning God?

I would have to believe in the existence of a God in order to question him. I question you.

And you want evidence? Because you want Him to force you to think of Him? Really? To what end?

I don't want God to force me to think of him. I want the facts to be convincing. My end is knowledge and wisdom.

Do you honestly think God could send His Son to die for you and then *poof* give you the evidence you need to believe in Him regardless?

Yes, I honestly think that this is child's play for an omniscient, omnipotent being. Are you trying to limit God?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

If you are God, is it not enough to ensure Man is free?

Is it not enough for what purpose?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tiberius]

If you are God, is it not enough to ensure Man is free?

If I were God, I'd be able to ensure that all people believed in me in such a way as to keep their free will intact.

 

[The Engineer]

If I were God, I'd be able to ensure that all people believed in me in such a way as to keep their free will intact.

If I was God, I would abolish free will altogether. I mean, really, what do we need free will for? Good knows better than us, anyway, so why should we make our own choices if those choice will always be inferior to the choices God would have made for us?

If I was God, I'd create an infinitely high amount of brains that all consist of nothing more than an eternally overstimulated reward-system. Or I would just abolish brains altogether and simply create eternal and infinite happiness and love.

 

[Tiberius]

Or perhaps instead of going through all teh trouble of creating a universe, just create brains in jars and let them think they're in a universe.

 

[someguy14]

Evidence of God is God Himself in each of those that believe in Him.

 

[Gottservant]

Wow! Really enjoyed these posts, moreso than I was expecting: especially the first one, though they were all first in their respective places.

I suppose yes, if believing in God was Heaven, and Heaven was forced on you, then yes, God could use force and being Heaven, you would still like it (though perhaps less than possible)... although it would be somewhat like rape (difficult distinction to make)

To the person who said "I question you" Well done, for whatever reason it is that you decided to stop the conversation, but I don't know what the point of that was. We question each other?

I still like the idea that God cannot force evidence on us. I can even add to that that evidence would limit God as to how He saw Himself, which even He would not want, since that implies that although timeless, He is ending, which is sad. I don't know if you grasp this... there is a way to limit God that is not unfriendly, I suppose yes, that is what I am aiming at.

I shall have to question myself as to whether at heart, I really do want to be raped, but even then, I think it makes sense to say that God does not hear fantasy, much less act on it, on a whim (which is the only possible way He could enjoy it too).

I guess what I am getting at is that there is much talk of God being God and man being free, but little discussion about in what way evidence contributes to the strength of this relationship... perhaps you can add something, that will clarify this??

 

[Gottservant]

You must understand also, that the nature of man, is that having proof, he would find it very hard to live with himself, as a sinner, always knowing that God was able to Lord it over him, that he was inferior.

If you plan to sin, much better not to know, don't you think? And a compassionate God would respect this, surely??

 

[dlamberth]

Evidence of God is God Himself in each of those that believe in Him.

Evidence if God alive even in those who don't believe in Him.

.

 

[dlamberth]

Y
Do you honestly think God could send His Son to die for you and then *poof* give you the evidence you need to believe in Him regardless? Are you mad?

I honestly think that God sent His Son to show us how to live through Love, Compassion and Service to others. When we do begin to live that way, there is much evidence opened to us of the Divinity that is with in each and everyone of us.


.

 

[Tiberius]

Evidence if God alive even in those who don't believe in Him.

.

And evidence for the FSM is alive in you too. Even if you don't believe in his noodly appendage.

 

[Danyc]

And evidence for the FSM is alive in you too. Even if you don't believe in his noodly appendage.

All hail His Noodly Appendage!

All knees will bow at the end. Their unbelief is only evidence of his noodly presence within them. Ever eaten spaghetti??

DUH.

 

[Gottservant]

I'm not going to just keep bumping this... but I wonder if you see the subtlety of this argument.

It suggests that we are free doubt God more easily, because we are not designed to entertain numerous possibilities for the one faith; but on the other hand, having been given the evidence of mystery, when mystery would not exist without God, we are expected to go beyond the limit of our understanding, in order to act on faith, more or less as we were designed to, without going so far as to completely distinguish ourselves from the Creation, that we leave behind, when forgoing the need for further evidence.

If you just accepted that evidence would be burden if it existed, realizing that we have mystery instead IS FAR GREATER, is it not?

 

[quatona]

If you just accepted that evidence would be burden if it existed, realizing that we have mystery instead IS FAR GREATER, is it not?

Sure, but why would I accept this weird premise?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I have heard an argument along the lines ' we are free to believe or disbelieve in God. If we were rational and there were evidence or proof of His existence, we would be complelled to believe. But God created man free to choose in this regard, therefore it is a good thing there is no proof'.