If the universe is thousands of years old...

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MichaelFischer

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read what i have posted because people keep on bringing up ishuse thatare listid in the section ok and if you read Corinthians 15:22
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Only man can be saved by Christ not animals so the all in both are refering to man and no man died befor Adam
 
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LeeC

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How come we can see the light from stars that are millions of light years away?
If indeed.

If however the universe is 13.7 billion years old, problem solve.

Also other Christians also hold this same view and it causes no problems with there faith.

I found a lot of information here from a Christian writer.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/yungerth.htm
 
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LeeC

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If indeed.

If however the universe is 13.7 billion years old, problem solve.

Also other Christians also hold this same view and it causes no problems with there faith.

I found a lot of information here from a Christian writer.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/yungerth.htm
Just notice how old this thread is... oh well, better late than never.
 
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LeeC

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On the age of the universe:
Creationists remind me of the old women who refuse to admit to their age!
They cite an age much younger than their real age even though anyone can clearly deduce just by looking at them that they are much older.
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Radiata

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Old thread, but I'll put in some thought. It's quite simple really. If we take the big bang theory, all matter was compacted into a very small space. Like the size of a molecule space. The thing exploded and everything was put into place. Now, since these were once together, and now are far apart, it's quite obvious to assume that we would once have been able to see them. But now they are millions of light years away. Why can we see them? It's because at one point, they were only 6,000 light years away. If only for an instant. Let me put it to you this way. If you have a light bulb in front of you, one that you could see from millions of light years away. All of the sudden, it shot away from you, faster than light could travel. It doesn't matter how far away from you that light bulb is, it was a one point located in every spot from here to it's current location. That is why we can see it. Simple explanation for a simple question.
 
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LeeC

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Old thread, but I'll put in some thought. It's quite simple really.

This is an old thread, but you need to put more thought into it – so maybe not so simple for you to explain – you are merely misunderstanding physics.
If we take the big bang theory, all matter was compacted into a very small space. Like the size of a molecule space.
And energy… and it was a lot smaller than even the “atomic” scale, let alone molecular, but that’s OK, you are thinking.

So you are accepting the Big Bang theory – excellent. The why not accept the universe is 13.7 billion years old?

Now, since these were once together, and now are far apart, it's quite obvious to assume that we would once have been able to see them.
…
It's because at one point, they were only 6,000 light years away. If only for an instant.

Ah… now this is where you have gone “off track” a little. It went wrong with “obvious to assume”

Always a bad start. It seems you are assuming that all the stars existed at this point – not so. No stars, not even atoms.

Science bit:
For the first 350,000 years or so after the Big Bang the universe was still too hot for atoms to exist (only fully ionised nuclei) and the free electrons meant that the photons (light) could not travel far without being absorbed, so the universe was opaque – was only after this point in time when the universe cooled that atoms could form, hence capturing the free electrons and the universe became transparent to light. Evidence for this can be see in the cosmic background radiation.

So your assumption fails on the first hurdle… all the stars we NEVER only 6,000 lights apart.

Your next point fails also – it ignores and breaks known physics.
If you have a light bulb in front of you, one that you could see from millions of light years away. All of the sudden, it shot away from you, faster than light could travel.

I will call this light bulb – a “Cepheid variable” star – it is what Edwin Hubble used, they can be seen a million light years away.

OK… if the star (bulb) moved away “faster than light could travel” – I will skip the physics lesson here, indeed space can expand faster than the speed of light, no problems there (it is said it did just that in the inflation period at the beginning of the universe) so lets just say this did happen. (It is more likely however that the universe has just been expanding for 13.7 billion years – but don’t let that stop you)

Anyway - You are now back at the original problem. The star (bulb) has been moved (by some means) to be a million light years away. Now light can only travel through the universe at the speed of light, so if we see this star from Earth today – the light from that star (bulb) has taken 1 million years to travel the distance.

Also, if you did move your star (bulb) away at greater than light speed (by some means) the light we see will have a HUGE red shift. Red shift on this scale are not seen.
Failed again.

So I am happy that you tried to answer the problem – but you have just broken the known laws of physics in doing it and so your answers do not match scientific observation.

If you have any questions – please ask.

Lee
 
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Radiata

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Correct, this answer doesn't match scientific justification. It matches biblical justification. You are going off the notion of looking at the universe as though it is billions of years old and trying to prove it. I am looking at it as though it is thousands of years old and trying to prove it. I am going from a biblical standpoint, and my theory matches it. You however, don't. This is why these arguments will always fail. It's because one side will never accept the other when providing evidence. What I mean to say is, you will not take the biblical account into your perspective. You say the stars were not formed until 350,000 years after the big bang. I say that they were created immediately. There is no way to determine who is right, and that is where argument will never be answered. However, let me show you some information that may surprise you.
  • Gravity is roughly 10^39 times weaker than electromagnetism. If gravity had been 10^33 times weaker than electromagnetism, "stars would be a billions times less massive and would burn a million times faster."
  • The nuclear weak force is 10^28 times the strength of gravity. Had the weak force been slightly weaker, all the hydrogen in the universe would have been turned to helium. Making water impossible for example.
  • A stronger nuclear strong force by as little as 2 perscent would have prevented the formation of protons-yielding a universe without atoms. Decreasing it by 5 percent would have given us a universe without stars.
  • If the difference in mass between a proton and a neutron were not exactly as it is, roughly twice the mas of an electron,then all neutrons would have become protons or vice versa. Say goodbye to chemistry as we know it. And to life. The very nature of water, so vital to life, is something of a mystery. Unique among the molecules, water is lighter in it's solid than liquid form. Ice floats. If it did not, the oceans would freeze from the bottom up and earth would bow be covered with solid ice. This property in turn is traceable to unique properties of the hydrogen atom.
  • The synthesis of carbon, the vital core of all organic molecules, on a significant scale involves what scientists view as an astonishing coincidence in the ratio of the strong force to electromagnetism. This ratio makes it possible for carbon-12 allowing the cecessary binding to take place during a tiny window of opportunity 10^-17 seconds long.
The list goes on and on and on. A comprehensive compilation of these coincidences can be found in John Leslie's book: Universes. The depth of the mystery involved here has been captured best by astronomer Fred Hoyle. The former proponent of the steady state theory.
All that we see in the universe of observation and fact, as opposed to the mental state of scenario and supposition, remains unexplained. And even in its supposedly first second the universe itself is acausal. That is to say, the universe has to know in advance what it is going to be before it knows ho to start itself. For in accordance with the big bang theory, for instance, at a time of 10^-43 seconds the universe has to know how many types of neutrino there are going to be at a time of one second. This is so in order that it starts off expanding at the right rate to fit the eventual number of neutrino types.
Hoyle's notion of the universe needing to know in advance later outcomes captures the depth of the mystery. The fine tuning of seemingly heterogeneous values and ratios necessary to get from the big bang to life as we know it involves intricate coordination ove fast differences in scale, from the galactic level down to the subatomic one, and across multi billion year tracts of time. Hoyle, who coined the term "big bang" has questioned the very legitimacy of the metaphor of an initial "explosion." An explosion in a junkyard does not lead to sundry bits of metal being assembled into a useful working machine. It would only create a bigger mess. The more physicists have learned about the universe, the more it looks like a put-up job.

Once you see that the big bang has to be controlled by something, that just leads me to believe that God and the bible are right. The bible explains that the stars were created in the beginning of time. When you look at it this way, my theory has validity. The one thing I had a real problem with on your post is you apparently did not understand my explanation fully. You explained a red shift, but you did not understand my full meaning. The light bulb moving faster than light of course would not show us the light from it's current position. It would show us the light from when it was 6,000 lightyears away.

And in case it is obscure within the context of this post, I really do appreciate you being level headed in approaching this topic. Unlike so many others that just yell a bunch of bull and expect everyone to go along with them.
 
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LeeC

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Radiata,

Thank you for your reply. It is late here, and I am too tired to respond as well as I should (and the wine does not help either - sorry.)

I appreciate your response, but I (of course?) feel you are mistaken with your understanding of the Big Bang, but I look forward to discussing this topic with you further shortly.

I am glad you feel I do not just "yell a bunch of bull" at you, the truth is, I am trying to understand the universe just like you... we just have gone different directions. I wish to learn from you also.

Lee
 
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LeeC

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Correct, this answer doesn't match scientific justification. It matches biblical justification.


Justification?

My answer matches scientific observations, scientific evidence. Not “Justification” – this has nothing to do with anything.

You are going off the notion of looking at the universe as though it is billions of years old and trying to prove it.


No I’m not. This is not how science works. It is also not how the model of the “Big Bang” came about. Show me where in the history books this is how the theory developed?

It started first with the observation that the universe was expanding. Science made an observation – and had to answer that. It did not make the assumption “Erm, the universe is 13.7 billion years old, I wonder if I can think of a theory to answer this.”

Nope – sorry. Doesn’t work, I have history on my side on this one as well.

History lesson? A couple of theories came out to answer this observation. The “steady state theory” by your good friend Fred Hoyle, and another theory which Freddie didn’t like, and so he called it the “Big Bang” to belittle it.

So, science did not make an assumption of 13.7 billion years, and wrote a theory. Science tried to answer observations. The “Big Bang” (as with every good science theory) made measurable predictions that could falsify (or prove) the theory.

More on this later maybe.

I am looking at it as though it is thousands of years old and trying to prove it. I am going from a biblical standpoint, and my theory matches it.


Of course your theory matches that of the bible; you are trying to prove the bible. Just think about your statement for a second.

Unfortunately, for your theory, is that it does not match observations in the real world. This means you have to either ignore evidence, or stick to your faith.

A science, when faced with evidence, will follow the evidence. If a theory does not match, they do not blame the universe, they reject the theory.

Do you ignore the evidence, or reject the theory?

I will point out here that rejecting the theory of the young Earth and Universe does not mean you cannot be a Christian (just look around this forum and you will see that for yourself). I can provide you links from Christians who argue against the Young Earth theory – so it is nothing to do with being an atheist, merely looking at, and then following the evidence. Maybe it was God who created the universe with a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago? Think about it… demand evidence though.

You however, don't. This is why these arguments will always fail.


My arguments have not failed – you might ignore them, but that is a different thing. I hope you will think, and debate further with me. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong with logic and reason. Do not just say, “God did it and that is it” Surely if a God did create man, if would want him to think for himself (or herself).

It's because one side will never accept the other when providing evidence.


You may be right about “one side” not accepting, but it is not science - prove me wrong.

I however will happily accept new evidence. I have done so all my life. The theories I believe in are not static (not even complete) so I will always be open to new and better ideas. I can give you examples in history for evolving scientific theories if you like. However religion is stuck with their holy book, so who is not accepting new evidence? Not science.

Has your views ever changed on such matters? What would make you change your mind? What evidence could I provide you that would make you change your mind?

What I mean to say is, you will not take the biblical account into your perspective.


Prove the bible is a true account of history and events, and then I may take it into account. Until then, it is just a book. I prefer Shakespeare myself.

I have another thread on this forum asking for evidence (non-Christian) written accounts for the miracles recorded in the bible. You know what – no one (Zero) people has posted me any such evidence as a reply.

So – why should I take the biblical account into my perspective, nothing has proven it. People believe it, but that is not the same as evidence that it is true.

You say the stars were not formed until 350,000 years after the big bang. I say that they were created immediately.


Actually, what I said was atoms did not form until around 350,000 years after the Big Bang – we had to wait a lot longer for the first stars.

There is no way to determine who is right, and that is where argument will never be answered.


Physics can test their theories in the lab. The theories work.

Using our knowledge of gravity and nuclear physics we can produce a theory on how stars form, evolve and die.

These theories can be tested by observing the universe. (If you like computers, it is even possible to run a computer model confirming the predictions on the evolution of stars – they are not that complex.)

So, you say there is no way to determine who is right? Would you say that in a court of law there is never anyway to determine if a person did the crime or not? I say I have evidence on my side – you just have faith. I know which way the judge will side.

However, let me show you some information that may surprise you.


Sorry – how you phrase that seems like it has been copied straight from a Jehovah Witness’s handbook or something?

All these “facts” you quote may “amaze” me, but I think the universe is an amazing place, and I am very lucky to be alive.

What it certainly does not prove, in any way, is that the universe is 6,000 years old or that God actually exists.

If you think your facts are so “amazing”, then how “more amazing” does God have to be – and how then did God just “come into” existence all by himself.

The odds of the universe having the numbers nicely balanced maybe a billion to one – but that is still more likely than a god.

You have to consider a couple of things about the numbers you quoted. Firstly – some are not actually that amazing. (The first one you quote had a factor of a million to play with)

Secondly, how do you know that in the new physic theories to come, that some of these numbers are not “forced” to be the numbers that they are… so they may not have a choice but to be the value that they are.

For example, Pi – it is amazing number 3.1415926535897932384626433832795…

If it was not so, we would not have the circles we have today?

Big deal… Pi is forced to be the number it is, it is a ratio – it cannot be anything else.

Do you see my point?

I will go further into the numbers you have given me if you like, once you read the following link:-

http://www.physlink.com/Education/essay_weinberg.cfm


. The depth of the mystery involved here has been captured best by astronomer Fred Hoyle. The former proponent of the steady state theory.


Yes, good old Fred, very against the “Big Bang” model – hence the name he give it.
The problem Fred Hoyle had though, was he had to “eat his hat” because the Bag Bang predicted the Cosmic Background radiation… his theory could not explain it. His theory died because it did not match the evidence.

So finding a scientist quoting against a new theory is nothing new – Hey, should I quote some Einstein at you because he really hated Quantum Mechanics – he died trying to prove it wrong, even on his death bed he was trying to re-write physics. A great man, but very wrong when it came to Quantum mechanics.

So any evidence that the Big Bang is fundamentally wrong, or are you going to quote me more dead physicists?

An explosion in a junkyard does not lead to sundry bits of metal being assembled into a useful working machine


It doesn’t create a god either – so what is your point?

To be continued…
 
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LeeC

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The more physicists have learned about the universe, the more it looks like a put-up job.


Is this just a personal opinion? And is very wrong. Just because you do not understand, it does not make it a “put-up job”.

So the more physicists learn – the worst it gets? Sorry – are you living in medieval times? No – you are using computer, how do you think anyone got it to work if physicists didn’t “learn” anything and it was all a “put-up job”.

Nuclear power stations and bombs (whatever your personally opinion on such things) show very well that physicists have a very good understand of how stars work. All learnt in the last 100 years… a “put-up job”.

Oh dear… you wish it was so you could live in the Bronze Age back with the bible writers…

Sorry, you need to make a better argument and not one from just personal opinions

Once you see that the big bang has to be controlled by something,


Show me what this “something” is, and explain to me where it came from. Explain to me how this “something” works. If the Big Bang could not form the universe without this “something” – what created the “something”, what evidence to you have for it, and explain to me where the theory of the Big Bang theory fails and this “something” is require.

The physics theories are far from complete, this why I will only “trust” them back to around 10^-32 seconds after the “Big Bang” maybe back to 10^-35 – the start of the inflation period of the universe. Conditions that relate to 10^-11 seconds after the Big Bang have been create in the science lab (OK a huge particle accelerator, but still a lab – so our physics has been tested back to a very early conditions in the universe.) Some physicists will say the theory is good to 10^43 seconds – after that we need quantum theory of gravity – I do not believe that strongly though.

that just leads me to believe that God and the bible are right,


If you could prove A is wrong, it does not mean B is right.

You have a lot of faith… I have none.

The bible explains that the stars were created in the beginning of time.


The bible does not explain anything – it states. Without any proven authority.

I could be wrong – tell me where in the bible it explains, say, stellar evolution?


When you look at it this way, my theory has validity.


So you say your bible is “true”, and therefore it is valid. This argument does not work.

I do not believe you – prove to me the bible is true, show me evidence. Prove to me Jesus came back from the dead without using the bible or any Christian text. There should be many non-Christian writers who observed the events described in the bible at this time, but I have NEVER been shown any such written evidence.

It is not my intention to go down the bible study route with you, but you cannot just say something is true and then just expect people to believe it. I am not living in a desert 2000 years ago.

The one thing I had a real problem with on your post is you apparently did not understand my explanation fully


I do understand it very well.

You tell me the bible is true – without evidence or reason. Then using the bible to tell me how the universe was formed.

I on the other hand spent my youth reading science books and learning maths. I went to university to learn more, chose a Physics and Astrophysics degree to study for 3 years… graduated with honours. I guess though I must have wasted my youth, I should have just read the bible instead? It obviously explains the universe in more detail than I could have ever hoped to learn from a university course?

The thing is, before I went university I did read the bible, and went to a Roman Catholic college – not because I was religious, I never was – I just wanted to make sure I was “following the right path” – even though I studied with Christians, discussed the bible in depth – it just never made any sense to me – unless I thought it was written by men in the desert over 2000 years ago trying to explain the universe. I found too many questions.

Have you ever questioned your faith? Examined your faith in detail – what do you really believe and why?

I can read the bible as if I “believe in God” - it still does not make any sense, why was God so evil. It is not just the Old Testament; the New is just as bad. (Sorry – lets talk science, not the bible)

You explained a red shift, but you did not understand my full meaning. The light bulb moving faster than light of course would not show us the light from it's current position.


Sorry? You are telling me I do not understand red shift? OK… then please explain it to me.

You hold a light bulb in front of me, then move it away… erm. It will be red shifted. Simple physics.

Please tell me why I am wrong, and quote me a reference to any physic book to highlight my error.

There is no problem with objects moving away from the Earth faster than light – we actually observe objects in the universe having HUGE red shifts – it is the space expanding that is causing it.

If you want to move an object away from me faster then light, but then not to have the light red-shifted, then the object must be stationary when I observe the light. If the bulb is a million light years away, then the light left the object 1 million years ago.

Take your pick – remember you are trying to invent a way to have the stars 1 million light years away, but only 6,000 years old.

I do not have that problem – I think you should start to accept the evidence. Change your theory.

Anyway – I have gone on long enough.

I look forward to a reply…

Lee
 
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