If the pope WERE great...

[WarriorAngel]

When the church refers to the sinlessness of Mary, it is not elevating her to Deity status or equality with Christ, but simply stating that throughout her life she chose not to sin. Obviously, this was accomplished by the grace of God that she would be a fitting vessel to carry the all-consuming fire (Christ) in her womb yet remaining unconsumed.

WOW, we do think alike.
She [like Eve] always had free will, but because of the Grace bestowed upon her more than any other creature [and especially as Mother of our Lord] she was kept [by Divine Grace] most pure.

AND Since she did well in obeying God fully [as no other creature ever did] she remained without sin...as was God's plan.

Who is My Mother? The one who does the will of My Father in heaven..............

 

[WarriorAngel]

WOW, we do think alike.
She [like Eve] always had free will, but because of the Grace bestowed upon her more than any other creature [and especially as Mother of our Lord] she was kept [by Divine Grace] most pure.

AND Since she did well in obeying God fully [as no other creature ever did] she remained without sin...as was God's plan.

Who is My Mother? The one who does the will of My Father in heaven..............

I forgot to mention, this is how she and why she was conceived without sin...as Eve was. For no other mortals besides [pre mortality] Adam and Eve was this bestowed upon. Jesus is God so we cannot exactly put Him as a mortal.

AS bearer of God, He kept Her pure for this purpose to bear His only Son.

 

[King of the Nations]

I'm so glad to see smart discussion and a little fun taking place on this thread.

We (who repent and have believed and been baptized), have inherited the righteousness of Christ, by faith+grace. This is the same righteousness that Mary inherited through faith+grace. Her sins were forgiven her, my sins were forgiven me, all by the blood of Jesus. That's Scriptural, right? but does it jive with Tradition?

Mary didn't have any sins to forgive because she was prevented from being a "victim" of original sin in the first place, but, yes, this of course was by grace and, yes, all jives with Tradition.

Greg

 

[BabyLutheran]

I don't know that it jives with tradition, but I think it jibes with tradition!

 

[DedicatedLittleFaith]

That's Scriptural, right? but does it jive with Tradition?

Why not? Jesus Himself, born in a Jewish community, followed the Jewish traditions. For example, He did go to Jerusalem for Passover.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Orthowannabe
If scripture totally trumps tradition, then we wouldn't have 2500 protestant denominations all interpreting scripture their own way. Don't like the way your current church interprets the Bible, just start your own church! The Holy Spirit would not allow us to have that unclear a vision of scripture. Scripture is most important, but tradition is very necessary too.

Isn't that what the Orthodox did?

http://foru.ms/t5805969&page=74
What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

quote: The Pope would renounce his Roman Catholicism and become Orthodox. There is nothing that would cause the Church as a whole to join with him.

 

[DedicatedLittleFaith]

I think there was a table of contents in the original bible, but the Catholics removed it so they could make tradition more important!!!!

We did not remove it, we simply moved it to its proper place: at the begining of the Book.

Where we can skip over it and not let it bug us no more.

 

[BabyLutheran]

Isn't that what the Orthodox did?

http://foru.ms/t5805969&page=74
What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

quote: The Pope would renounce his Roman Catholicism and become Orthodox. There is nothing that would cause the Church as a whole to join with him.

They didn't start their own church, their doctrines are pretty much the same as RC.

Plus they hold TRADITION in at least as high regard as RC's

 

[Silouan]

Isn't that what the Orthodox did?

http://christianforums.com/t5805969&page=74
What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

quote: The Pope would renounce his Roman Catholicism and become Orthodox. There is nothing that would cause the Church as a whole to join with him.

There is a difference of having an evolved schism between east and west, and someone going and starting their own church. Again..what is your infatuation with this topic about Catholic/Orthodox relations? and how does this relate to the OP?

 

[BabyLutheran]

And why do you put jolly smiley faces in every contentious post?!!??

 

[isshinwhat]

We (who repent and have believed and been baptized), have inherited the righteousness of Christ, by faith+grace. This is the same righteousness that Mary inherited through faith+grace. Her sins were forgiven her, my sins were forgiven me, all by the blood of Jesus. That's Scriptural, right? but does it jive with Tradition?

walloffire:

One of the things that I like to meditate upon during the praying of a Hail Mary, especially during the Mystery of the Visitation during a Rosary, is how completely free the gift of grace is, and it is no more evident than in the case of St. John the Baptist and the Blessed Virgin.

During the Mystery of the Visitation we meditate upon Mary's visit to Elizabeth. In particular I am struck by these prophetic words concerning St. John the Baptist which were fulfilled as Mary approached Elizabeth, "[John] shall be great before the Lord and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." As John leapt in his mother's womb when he was filled with the Holy Ghost, I marvel that God's grace is so freely given. God's purpose can be done in our lives, and He makes certain that we have the grace to see His work accomplished in us. In the case of St. John the Baptist it occurred in the womb, with the Blessed Virgin it happened at her Conception, but in both it was the result of the faithful actions of a parent and not the personal act of the child: "And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord."

 

[DarkNLovely]

I HATE IT WHEN EVERYBODY GET'S UPSET AND STARTS FUSSING WITH EACH OTHER! Anybody want to join me in a sing along of the German International Friendship song?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7aAV5XHUkE

 

[King of the Nations]

Um........No........



Greg

 

[Rhamiel]

DarkNLovely kicking it old school with the animaniacs

 

[walloffire]

I forgot to mention, this is how she and why she was conceived without sin...as Eve was. For no other mortals besides [pre mortality] Adam and Eve was this bestowed upon. Jesus is God so we cannot exactly put Him as a mortal.

AS bearer of God, He kept Her pure for this purpose to bear His only Son.

So it was not a sin to accidentally leave the son of God behind and go on to another city? In today's society, wouldn't a mother and father be charged with something in the court system for leaving their child behind? Perhaps she was busy watching all the other children she had with Joseph in their marriage relationship.

Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

I'd say that's at least a small spot on the ol' perfect record. She, like us all, was only made perfect by faith, not works. Her works were not perfect, and she like us all sinned, this being one instance, leaving Jesus behind. Another instance was at the wedding at Cana when she presumed that Jesus didn't know they needed more wine, doubting his omniscience.

Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

 

[isshinwhat]

So it was not a sin to accidentally leave the son of God behind and go on to another city?

Not if the rest of the friends of family were supposed to have been watching after Jesus, as the Scriptures attest. "But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance." It was only when they went to go have Jesus rejoin the two of them that they found He was not with the friends and family. No sin there, my friend.

Perhaps she was busy watching all the other children she had with Joseph in their marriage relationship.

Everyone mentioned by name as a brother of Jesus is also mentioned in Scripture to have a parent other than Mary or Joseph.

Another instance was at the wedding at Cana when she presumed that Jesus didn't know they needed more wine, doubting his omniscience.

"And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye."

That Scripture makes no sense if it is read as Mary asking Jesus to do something about the wine, Jesus rebuking Mary, Mary saying do it anyway, and Jesus then turning the water into wine.

It has to be remembered that Jesus had not yet entered His public ministry. At the Blessed Virgin's request, He was about to set out on a very dangerous road, one that they both knew would lead to His suffering. Jesus, out of love for His Mother, asked her if she was certain she was ready for the consequences her request. Another translation: "et dicit ei Iesus quid mihi et tibi est..." "And Jesus said, 'what is to me is to you...?'" He was asking her if she was ready for the prophecy spoken by St. Simeon, "And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed..." to come to pass. Mary, the faithful Mary, who began her walk with Christ with the words, "...ecce ancilla Domini fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum..." "...Behold the handmaid of the Lord: be it done to me according to thy word...." now again says yes to God, her Son: "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye." And the miracle was done. Mary had consented to the offering of her Son, and her own suffering. The ball was now rolling, and our Redemption was now approaching. What a blessed story of faith and love between a mother and her son, a child of God, and her Savior...

...At least that's what I meditate upon during the Miracle at Cana, the Second Luminous Mystery of the Rosary.

 

[Silouan]

So it was not a sin to accidentally leave the son of God behind and go on to another city? In today's society, wouldn't a mother and father be charged with something in the court system for leaving their child behind? Perhaps she was busy watching all the other children she had with Joseph in their marriage relationship.
.

"That Jesus, I told him to stay with us and he was disobedient and wandered off! How could he do such a thing? I mean, isnt he Emmanuel as the angel proclaimed? I can't believe that he would disobey his parents like this! Where is he..I cant wait till i find him. I'll teach him to disobey and worry his parents so much!"

See the utter ridiculousness of saying that since Jesus stayed behind in the Temple to do the will of his Father for which he was sent makes Mary a bad mother? These arguments being presented wouldnt pass a logical proof but would indicate a fallacy(s). One has to always keep in mind that the Christ child from his conception was God:, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" [Colossians 2:9] To state otherwise is dancing with major heresy. Therefore, Christ was only obeying the will of his Father who prompted him to remain at the temple to teach. Therefore, Mary's parenting had nothing to do with it.

 

[Silouan]

I HATE IT WHEN EVERYBODY GET'S UPSET AND STARTS FUSSING WITH EACH OTHER! Anybody want to join me in a sing along of the German International Friendship song?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7aAV5XHUkE

Who's fussing?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

so anyway, what's up with all the statues in catholic churches (at least the ones i've seen)? wasn't that forbidden in the Law to have graven images of -any- sort?

Like -
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

if we make a graven image of a person, that would fall under the category of "that is in the earth", since men are in the earth. why then do people bow down to statues in churches?

All,

I once saw a graphic of the First or Second Hebrew Temple of The Lord. The statues of the angles, the seraphim over the Arc of the Covenant and the serpant staff were all displayed and the priests kneeling down in front of them. I can't find it; does anyone have a link to such a graphic. It would be a good illustration for Mr. walloffire to demonstrate his misunderstanding of the commandments. Thanks.

 

[King of the Nations]

So it was not a sin to accidentally leave the son of God behind and go on to another city?

Accidentally? Obviously not. And, in fact, at Jesus' age at that time - intentionally? Not a sin either since 12 was today's 18 or 21. Jesus was no longer considered a "kid" at that time.

In today's society, wouldn't a mother and father be charged with something in the court system for leaving their child behind?

Well, seeing as how mothers and doctors are not currently charged with murder when they have and perform abortions, I really wouldn't advise using the contemporary American rule of law as a guide on sin.

Maybe that's just me, though...

Perhaps she was busy watching all the other children she had with Joseph in their marriage relationship.

Mary didn't have any children with Joseph. That's pretty obvious from her question to the angel Gabriel when he tells her she is going to be the mother of the messiah. Mary says, "How can this be since I do not know a man?"....Consider the fact that Mary was betrothed to Joseph at the time (in those days married for all intents and purposes) and you have to conclude one of two things: 1) Mary was nutty, forgetting all about having a husband. OR 2) She had vowed perpetual virginity to the Lord and responded accordingly, "How am I going to be able to be anyone's mother when I am now and always will be a virgin?" The second option tends to maek far more sense, wouldn't you agree?

Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

I'd say that's at least a small spot on the ol' perfect record.

Obviously not. And you do understand that being sinless and never making any mistakes of a non-moral nature are two different things, by the way. Right? Too often when people think of Mary being perfect, they tend to think of her floating along on a cloud, never using improper grammar, never tripping on the stairs, etc., which is not what we're talking about in reference to her perfection.

She, like us all, was only made perfect by faith, not works. Her works were not perfect, and she like us all sinned, this being one instance, leaving Jesus behind.

The idea of being made perfect by faith and not works makes no more sense than talking all the time about loving someone while concurrently never interacting with them in any way. James 2 addresses this issue very clearly. All of her works were perfect (sinless) because of God's prevenient grace and her cooperation with it.

Another instance was at the wedding at Cana when she presumed that Jesus didn't know they needed more wine, doubting his omniscience.

Jesus's forewent some of that power, as is demonstrated most clearly in his testimony that even He does not know when He himself is to return to the earth. At that richly symbolic event, Mary is doing quite the opposite of what you suggest, encouraging all to have total faith in her son whom she knows unequivocally to be Messiah.

Greg