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Matthew 7:12Passing the Test
There's a warning about teaching against what Jesus taught:
Well... I was talking about my experience, and Yes, that is my experience in discussing various law keeping theologies.Not really. See Romans 13:8-10. Love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law not breaking God's law which is why Jesus say "On these two commandments" of love to God and man "hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:36-40. No one therefore can claim to love God or even know God according to the scripture by breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *see James 2:10-11; 1 John 5:2-3; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9; Matthew 7:21-23; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law or that God's 10 commandments are abolished).
Hi Ligurian,Not when repentence is built-in. Matthew 5:22-24.
This section of your post shows to me that you have a misunderstanding and a wrong view of what I believe. I do not believe we keep the letter of the law of God's Word to be saved. What I do believe is that the letter of Gods' Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 and that we are saved by God's Grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith in Gods' Word leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 allowing God to work in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure *Philippians 2:13 because without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5. This is why Jesus says truly truly I say to you unless a man in born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. We need to be born again into Gods new covenant promise to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because all we can do without Jesus is sin because we are sinners *Romans 3:9-20 and do not love *John 5:42. In order to follow God therefore we need to be born again in the Spirit through faith in Gods' Word to believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Galatians 5:15. This is Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore it is faith in the letter of God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *see John 6:63 in order to be born again into God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). It is only through love that we can obey God's law *see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15 and love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. God's law shows us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as our self *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 5:2-4. Before we can walk in the Spirit of God's Word therefore we need to know the letter of Gods' Word because God's Spirit works through the letter of Gods' Word as we believe what Gods Word says (faith).I believe your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.
That would not be my response to you and is not what I believe at all either. If your asking me what those letters are then my response would be to you all of God's Word as we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have access to Gods' Grace and salvation through faith which saves us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. It is faith in God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 so that we can be born again to love.Then, in order to put it into practice, we need to know what those letters are. And that's where things break down in my experience. If I ask what those letters are, the responses generally go like this: The laws regarding the remission of sin and levitical priesthood ended. (That says what the letters aren't, not what they are.) The moral law remains (That's a category, not letters.) The ten commandments, plus tithing and health laws. (The ten commandments is specific, but the other two again are categories.) If you would like to expand my experience and give references for the passages where the letters are found, that would be great! May the Lord bless you and keep you!
Right, I don't think that you believe that we keep the the ten commandments plus some other laws in order to be saved. I do think that you believe that not keeping the ten commandments plus some other laws is sin.This section of your post shows to me that you have a misunderstanding and a wrong view of what I believe. I do not believe we keep the letter of the law of God's Word to be saved. What I do believe is that the letter of Gods' Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 and that we are saved by God's Grace through faith and not of ourselves, it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith in Gods' Word leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 allowing God to work in us to will and to do of His own good pleasure *Philippians 2:13 because without Jesus we can do nothing *John 15:1-5. This is why Jesus says truly truly I say to you unless a man in born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven. We need to be born again into Gods new covenant promise to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 because all we can do without Jesus is sin because we are sinners *Romans 3:9-20 and do not love *John 5:42. In order to follow God therefore we need to be born again in the Spirit through faith in Gods' Word to believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Galatians 5:15. This is Gods' new covenant promise. Therefore it is faith in the letter of God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *see John 6:63 in order to be born again into God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). It is only through love that we can obey God's law *see 1 John 5:2-3; John 14:15 and love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law. God's law shows us how to love God and how to love our neighbor as our self *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; 1 John 5:2-4. Before we can walk in the Spirit of God's Word therefore we need to know the letter of Gods' Word because God's Spirit works through the letter of Gods' Word as we believe what Gods Word says (faith).
That would not be my response to you and is not what I believe at all either. If your asking me what those letters are then my response would be to you all of God's Word as we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. So we have access to Gods' Grace and salvation through faith which saves us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *Romans 10:17. It is faith in God's Word that leads us to the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63 so that we can be born again to love.
Hope this is helpful.
Right, I don't think that you believe that we keep the the ten commandments plus some other laws in order to be saved. I do think that you believe that not keeping the ten commandments plus some other laws is sin.
I have asked what the letters of the the other laws are. I know what the ten commandments are, but not the letters of the other laws that you keep.
I know that you do not believe that we are to keep certain laws, laws about animal sacrifices for example. Or did I misunderstand you? Do you believe that today we are to keep every law in the Bible?
Or do you believe that we are to keep the principles of all the laws, but we don't have to keep those laws to the letter?
Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?Simply, it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible. We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says.
Your response here...LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Simply, it is not about following the letter of the law it is about believing the letter of the Word. This leads us to the Spirit of the Word as shown in John 6:63 that we receive through faith *Romans 10:17 as we believe what Gods' Word says *John 3:36. We receive the letter of God's Word by reading the bible. We receive the Spirit of the Word of God by believing what Gods' Word says.
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not know the letter of God's Word then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?
Looking at this part here:Your response here...
I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not follow the letter of God's Word then you do not have faith according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.
Well... For one thing, it seems different from what I understood you to be saying in the past. That's fine if something is changed, hopefully we are all learning and growing.I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest.
Okay... Are you saying that we don't need to follow the letters of any of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy?
Hi Ligurian,
Nice to meet you.
The law keeping theologies that I've had experience with, at least in discussions, are Messianic/Hebrew Roots, Seventh Day Adventist, and Church of God (I think).
Those theologies all break down at the practical level, in my experience. To put it a different way, it's when talking about the details of which laws to keep and how to go about keeping them that the adherents usually stop responding.
Do you promote one of the above theologies? If not, maybe there is a law keeping theology I'm not familiar with? Maybe I'll have a different experience on this thread!
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
Your response here...I am not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding what I am saying to be honest. What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36? If you do not follow the letter of God's Word then you do not have faith according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26? Obedience to God's Word is the fruit of genuine faith according to the scriptures. *see also Matthew 7:21; John 10:26-27; Hebrews 11. They are not separate from each other. The letter of God's Word leads us to faith *Romans 10:17 so that we can receive the Spirit of Gods' Word *John 6:63.
Looking at this part here:
Well... For one thing, it seems different from what I understood you to be saying in the past. That's fine if something is changed, hopefully we are all learning and growing.
Another thing is I don't know if your answer to this question is Yes or No.
Sounds interesting!I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom, which contains the Oridinances of the Davidic Covenant, starting with the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus calls it both Law and Commandments, Matthew 5:17-20. Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is prophecy about these words Jesus speaks, and Jesus confirms it in John 12:44-50. These are parallel verses and come with a built-in warning.
It is the new wine of the New Covenant, spoken of here:
Matthew 9:15-17 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
And here:
Matthew 11:25-30 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and Earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Thy sight. All things are delivered unto Me of My Father, and no man knoweth the Son but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and ye shall find rest unto your souls: for My yoke is easy and My burden is light.
It is obvious to me that "heavy laden" is the "burden" in Matthew 23:4. So it's not the Law of Moses and/or that which Moses allowed due to their hard hearts (Matthew 19:3-8). ... Jesus' yoke is the Davidic Covenant for the Davidic Kingdom, offered to those who hear the One Shepherd (John 10:1-16) speaking the words of the Father.
Do you mean this question?Your response here...
Read what has been posted to you. Nothing has changed in what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures. I see you are avoiding my last questions to you asking for clarification. What do you think my posts are saying to you?
I don't think what you say there was difficult to understand.What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36?
____________Your response here...
Read what has been posted to you. Nothing has changed in what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures. I see you are avoiding my last questions to you asking for clarification. What do you think my posts are saying to you?
I think they are saying that we don't have to keep the law in order to be saved. And I agree with that.What do you think my posts are saying to you?
Do you mean this question?
Now... was there an additional question you wanted me to respond to?
I think I am coming to understand your posts, but I don't understand how they relate to what I was talking about. That's why I was trying to bring the discussion around to the idea that I have presented earlier, that law keeping theologies tend to break down when talking about the practical applications.There were more questions asked mainly to help the discussion and help answer your questions based around the scriptures. It does not seem you are understanding my post to you for some reason that already answer your questions with scripture, and you seem to be trying to avoid discussing the posts I have already written for you. These were some of the other questions already posted below in some of my posts you have not responded to..
- What is so hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life *John 3:36?
- If you do not know the letter of God's Word then how can you have faith in God's Word according to Romans 10:17 and James 2:16-26 when it is the letter we are to have faith in before we receive God's Spirit?
Perhaps take some time and start over and prayerfully take time to read and understand the posts and scriptures shared with you earlier. Start with post # 105 linked what do you think it is saying and how do you think it might address your earlier questions and claims you were making?
- What do you think my posts are saying to you? (start with post # 105 linked) and tell me how this post does not answer your questions to me?
Take Care.
I think I am coming to understand your posts, but I don't understand how they relate to what I was talking about. That's why I was trying to bring the discussion around to the idea that I have presented earlier, that law keeping theologies tend to break down when talking about the practical applications.
I don't think anything is hard about believing Gods' Word in order to receive everlasting life. However, how does that relate to law keeping theologies breaking down or not?
A person can have faith in God's word without knowing the letters of the Bible because God can speak outside of the Bible.
Regarding post 105, my understanding of your particular theology is that God's law is the ten commandments plus some other laws, which must be kept to the letter.
So to clarify, I don't think that you believe that we must keep some laws in order to be saved. But I thought you believed that not keeping some laws is sin.
Is that something you believe?
Post 105 talks a lot about salvation, but not about the practical application of some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy after one is saved.
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you.
I had made this observation earlier. It was directed to someone else.It relates your earlier posts because your trying to make the argument about the letter. It not about the letter it is about faith in the letter that leads to the Spirit that we are to walk in *Galatians 5:16 that God uses to writes his laws of love in our heart so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh *Galatians 5:16 so that we can enter into Gods new covenant promise to love and love obeys Gods' law from the heart (see 1 John 5:2-4; Romans 13:8-10) it does not break them *see 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:6-9.
Hope this helps
That's where the law-keeping theologies often break down in my experience, the practical applications.
To clarify, those laws must be followed to avoid sin, not for salvation.... the idea that some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
(usually the ten commandments plus some others)
must be very carefully followed today,
followed to the letter.
Sounds interesting!
What you're describing there doesn't really sound like a law keeping theology imo.
What I was talking about was the idea that some of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy
(usually the ten commandments plus some others)
must be very carefully followed today,
followed to the letter.
Thanks for the details!
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