If the images were removed

[r035198x]

I quoted your first post in full. And no, "how would it affect Catholic doctrine" does not equal "please give me an exact count of the uses of icons in Christianity."

Yeah, this is getting childish fast. We could waste more of our time trying to prove who is rephrasing the question or is the best at quoting posts in the forums. Better for me though is to just stick with:

"Those who know the Catholic doctrine and want to answer me will just point out Catholic activities that use images and state the importance of those activities in the doctrine. They could also point out good research material I can read to get the answers myself."

Those that either don't know the Catholic doctrine, are worried about why I'm asking the question, do not understand the question, think that the question has drastically and foolishly changed or are simply unhappy about the question can either stay away from the thread or post whatever they want and get ignored by me.


Kind regards

r035198x

 

[Dark_Lite]

"Those who know the Catholic doctrine and want to answer me will just point out Catholic activities that use images and state the importance of those activities in the doctrine. They could also point out good research material I can read to get the answers myself."

And once again, this has been answered plenty of times. Anyway, this forum is mostly dead. You have plenty of information. If someone wants to give more information, they'll show up and give it to you. But you have plenty to go off--though at this point I don't think anyone knows what you're asking.

 

[Hairy Tic]

I did post it in the theology section of the forums as a suggestion that it is a theology question requesting information from people well versed in Catholic theology.
I fail to see why it can't be answered since it is quite specific.
Basically, are there Catholic activities that require images?
If so, how important are those activities to the Catholic doctrine?

All the talk about iconoclasm, defences for having the images and attacks against having the images, while illuminating, is IMO not really on topic.

## Then I don't know what you want, sorry.

The sacramental principle, like the Incarnational principle from which it derives, is a theological & doctrinal principle; &, as such, is one of the principles for the veneration of images - whether by images is meant:

• icons
• statues in the round
• holy cards & other pictures
  
• holy medals, such as the Miraculous Medal

• The chief use of statues in the round is processional;
• Holy cards are for individuals, and can be used in many ways - as bookmarks, cards, means of devotion to a Saint, prayer cards, even as presents.
• Icons are used mainly in the Eastern Rites - I'll let someone better informed about them deal with that part of the question.

Hope that helps.

The question is, what is an image ? Presumably something that

• has a representational function
• is not abstract
• may or may not represent the human form
• may be either tangible, or purely mental
• Is not that which it represents

A Bible is an image in some ways - so is a statue - so is a photograph. Ideas can certainly be images. The sort used in Christian worship are just one particular kind; not an anomaly.

In case someone quotes the commandments: Why should Catholics, who follow Christ, be expected to care a straw for what the OT says about idols ? What next - are Catholics to follow the food laws in Deuteronomy as well ?

The Law is indivisible: to break one commandment is to break all, as James warns his readers. To inflict these dead commandments on Christians, is to deny the work of Christ; for we are not under the Law, or any part of it. So the accusation of idolatry is a non-issue; there is no case to answer.

Much of the Biblical polemic is against "false gods" - IOW, not the gods, or their images, but both together treated as one thing. Such passages do not condemn the veneration of images, as images are not gods, nor are they of gods. Nothing in the OT - a pre-Christian set of books - is of any force against Christian worship, doctrine or practice. If the OT were valid as a testimony against the holy images in the Church, the OT would have to be equally valid as a witness against the deity of Christ, or a hundred other NT doctrines. To quote the OT against Rome is, logically, to deny the Christian faith in its entirety. It is suicidal for Protestants to do so.

 

[r035198x]

## Then I don't know what you want, sorry.

The sacramental principle, like the Incarnational principle from which it derives, is a theological & doctrinal principle; &, as such, is one of the principles for the veneration of images -..

I looked at the seven sacraments but did not get any material that dictates that there has to be images for any of them (even though of course the sacraments themselves could be said to be images).
Most of my searches are ending up on sites like catholicdoctrine.org and other anti - catholic sites with useless information to me which is really frustrating.
Is there a site that details catholic activities as stated in catholic doctrines?

I was hoping Catholics would have some helpful links or specific information.

I think the rest of your post went into justification which I'm afraid is not what I'm looking for and has a tendency of attracting more off topic debates

 

[Rhamiel]

getting rid of images would not change Catholic doctrine

like if everyone just decided that they did not feel like having images

now if everyone decided that images were sinful or not lawful then that would be a heresy

 

[r035198x]

getting rid of images would not change Catholic doctrine...

Any particular reason why you have this belief that contradicts what other Catholics have been saying?
Also, links that point to Catholic activities that involve images would be appreciated.

 

[laconicstudent]

Any particular reason why you have this belief that contradicts what other Catholics have been saying?

Except all he did was agree with every other Catholic in this thread.

 

[r035198x]

Except all he did was agree with every other Catholic in this thread.

Only two Catholics have posted in this thread, and both have told you they are important.

You really need to work on your reading skills.

 

[Rhamiel]

Any particular reason why you have this belief that contradicts what other Catholics have been saying?
Also, links that point to Catholic activities that involve images would be appreciated.

well we like icons and statues, but they are not needed, but if you were forced to get rid of them that would be a problem

like, if you are married, do you have to go to the store with your wife? no not a problem at all
now if you demand that your wife does not go to the store to you then that is a problem

to say that images are sinful is a sin agianst the incarnation where the Word became flesh (and humans have an image)
to say that you do not really care for images, well no problem with that

 

[r035198x]

well we like icons and statues, but they are not needed, but if you were forced to get rid of them that would be a problem

like, if you are married, do you have to go to the store with your wife? no not a problem at all
now if you demand that your wife does not go to the store to you then that is a problem

to say that images are sinful is a sin agianst the incarnation where the Word became flesh (and humans have an image)
to say that you do not really care for images, well no problem with that

Guess what? I also like icons and statues. One more guess .... I do not think that images are sinful.
If you read the posts you will see that the question being asked is whether the Catholic doctrine demands images in certain activities and the importance of those activities to the Catholic doctrine. The question requires knowledge of the Catholic doctine or links that contain such information. Statements outside this are just plain off topic and show a lack of comprehension.

 

[Rhamiel]

Guess what? I also like icons and statues. One more guess .... I do not think that images are sinful.
If you read the posts you will see that the question being asked is whether the Catholic doctrine demands images in certain activities and the importance of those activities to the Catholic doctrine. The question requires knowledge of the Catholic doctine or links that contain such information. Statements outside this are just plain off topic and show a lack of comprehension.

I am sorry
the answer is no, there is not a dependance on images

 

[PassthePeace1]

If Catholics were to remove all the images they have/distribute in their churches, how would that affect their doctrine or faith? Is the suggestion completely outrageous to the Catholic faith?

Apologies for my ignorance of Catholicism, the question is actually an attempt to understand it better.

I think the problem that your having in not getting a statisfactory answer to your question, is because your question presents somewhat of a paradox. It can be answered both yes and no, depending on the circumstances.

I noticed you stated "in their churches", which seems to me that your asking if the Catholic Church as a whole removed all images in every Catholic parish universally....as opposed to some parishes that might opt for a more simpler interior. In this sense the answer would be yes, because images and icons have been very much part of our way of practice since the beginning. As Catholics we believe we "recieve" our faith, thru it being passed on from generation to generation, and this organic continuity is important to us.

While we might not us icons directly during our Litugry, they play a part in our worship during Mass indirectly by creating a sacred space, which moves the hearts, mind and soul upwardly to Heaven, so our focus can be on worshipping God. Sacred music also assist us in this endeavor.

On Fridays during Lent, we do use images for the Stations of the Cross....which is a devotional of the Passion of Christ. Every parish must have these stations posted in their parish.

During Holy Week, we venerate and kiss the crucifix. However, both of these devotions are voluntary, and although highly recommended are not mandatory. Also they are not done during the Mass, but at other times of the day.

Even though some parishes may have a simpler interior, they must have the basics...which is a Crucifix, Stations of the Cross, and I believe at least one statue or icon of the Blessed Mother, and Saint Joseph...and of Christ.

And it can be answered no, if it is applying to an individual Catholic....who is not obligated to venerate images.

Below is a link to the Catechism's section on images...hope it helps.

Holy images

1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images:
Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27
1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:
We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other's meaning.28
1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses"29 who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness,"30 who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:
Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.31 1162 "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God."32 Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart's memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 1