If the images were removed

[r035198x]

## Images are:

• an extension of the fact of the Incarnation

• therefore, sacramental

- & Catholicism is a religion of visible signs mediating invisible spiritual goods. The Incarnate Word of God is the Supreme Sign, the Supreme & Exemplary Sacrament of God. The Church its seven sacraments are derived from this. This is is why there recognition of Saints & veneration of their relics, & how a book, a preacher, can be the means of sanctification. This is why there are sacramentals: holy water, holy pictures, holy images.

Catholicism - Christianity - is a religion of recurring patterns & themes & analogies; & that is one of them.

I wasn't really asking about why there are images.
My question was a theoretic theology one asking the effect of the removal of the images on the Catholic doctrine. Basically trying to get a view of the Catholic activites (if any) that would get handicapped if there were no longer any images.

 

[Abinadi]

I don't think the removal of images or icons from a Catholic church would make any different to the theology ot belief system. It may effect some part of their religious practice but that would not alter the theology; in my opinion.

I remember being quite surprised at how plain the Cistine Chapel is when I was there a couple of years ago. Apart from the paintings of course, the chapel itself is a very simple affair.

 

[Hairy Tic]

I wasn't really asking about why there are images.
My question was a theoretic theology one asking the effect of the removal of the images on the Catholic doctrine. Basically trying to get a view of the Catholic activites (if any) that would get handicapped if there were no longer any images.

## Your question can't be answered unless the reasons for having images are given, though. Theological questions (such that asked) deserve theological answers

 

[r035198x]

## Your question can't be answered unless the reasons for having images are given, though. Theological questions (such that asked) deserve theological answers

I did post it in the theology section of the forums as a suggestion that it is a theology question requesting information from people well versed in Catholic theology.
I fail to see why it can't be answered since it is quite specific.
Basically, are there Catholic activities that require images?
If so, how important are those activities to the Catholic doctrine?

All the talk about iconoclasm, defences for having the images and attacks against having the images, while illuminating, is IMO not really on topic.

 

[laconicstudent]

I did post it in the theology section of the forums as a suggestion that it is a theology question requesting information from people well versed in Catholic theology.
I fail to see why it can't be answered since it is quite specific.
Basically, are there Catholic activities that require images?
If so, how important are those activities to the Catholic doctrine?

All the talk about iconoclasm, defences for having the images and attacks against having the images, while illuminating, is IMO not really on topic.

Because your question doesn't really make sense, nor is it easily answered, as a glance through this thread seems to show has been stated repeatedly.

If it answers your question, icons themselves are not necessary for a service provided you are willing to scratch out "Priest censes the icons" from the rubrics. (so far as I can tell)

 

[r035198x]

...
If it answers your question, icons themselves are not necessary for a service provided you are willing to scratch out "Priest censes the icons" from the rubrics. (so far as I can tell)

Why does the question make no sense? Just because people who have posted in this thread have missed the point of the question and gone on to off topic discussions doesn't count as a valid response. If those that have replied do not know enough of the Catholic theology to answer the question then I can live with that. Don't mistake an impossible to answer question with a difficult to answer question (based on the lack of knowledge of the person doing the answering.

...
If it answers your question, icons themselves are not necessary for a service provided you are willing to scratch out "Priest censes the icons" from the rubrics. (so far as I can tell)

Is '"Priest censes the icons" from the rubrics' a Catholic activity that requires the presence of icons? If so, how important is that activity to the Catholic theology? See, the questions make perfect sense.

 

[laconicstudent]

Is '"Priest censes the icons" from the rubrics' a Catholic activity that requires the presence of icons?

Um, yeah. It is really pretty impossible to cense icons if you don't have any. I actually don't know if Roman Catholics cense icons, but they do in the Orthodox Church.

YouTube - Presanctified Liturgy - Saint George Greek Orthodox Church

If so, how important is that activity to the Catholic theology?

Of some importance, since veneration of the images is specified in the Holy Seventh Ecumenical Council. And required in the liturgical rubrics of the Orthodox Church.

See, the questions make perfect sense.

Not at all, it is nonsensical because it ignores all of the background theology. Frankly, I am butchering the subject with an answer that doesn't address the importance of icons, because your question is worded wrong and you have refused repeatedly to accept an answer that isn't worded exactly as you want it.

 

[r035198x]

...
Not at all, it is nonsensical because it ignores all of the background theology....

I don't see how being nonsensical follows from ignoring the background. I'm deliberately not interested in the background because that would spark the (off topic) discussions that have already been going on this thread. The information I am looking for is self contained and meaningful (to me) without the background. All I need is the current activities that involve images and their importance.

....I am butchering the subject with an answer that doesn't address the importance of icons, because your question is worded wrong and you have refused repeatedly to accept an answer that isn't worded exactly as you want it.

My question is worded exactly as I wanted it to be and your answer in the post I'm quoting is right on topic. Basically you have pointed to an activity that requires icons and have pointed out that the activity is of some importance. Which is a direct response to the question I am asking. It is similar activities like that (that involve images) and their significance that I'm interested in researching.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I don't see how being nonsensical follows from ignoring the background. I'm deliberately not interested in the background because that would spark the (off topic) discussions that have already been going on this thread. The information I am looking for is self contained and meaningful (to me) without the background. All I need is the current activities that involve images and their importance.




My question is worded exactly as I wanted it to be and your answer in the post I'm quoting is right on topic. Basically you have pointed to an activity that requires icons and have pointed out that the activity is of some importance. Which is a direct response to the question I am asking. It is similar activities like that (that involve images) and their significance that I'm interested in researching.

Your question has already been answered numerous times. I don't know why you're still asking it. Go look up the rubrics of the Mass/Liturgy and find where icons are used. That's about as "self-contained" as you'll get.

You cannot ask about "activities and their importance" while being deliberately disinterested in the reason for importance.

 

[r035198x]

Your question has already been answered numerous times. ...

Yes, some Catholics said the images were important while others said they were not.

.. Go look up the rubrics of the Mass/Liturgy and find where icons are used. That's about as "self-contained" as you'll get...

Already did and still am reading about it. I was hoping those who participate in those activities would give me more information easier. Do you know if Roman Catholics cense icons?

..
You cannot ask about "activities and their importance" while being deliberately disinterested in the reason for importance.

Why not? I'm more concerned about the more intellectual and factual 'what' and 'how much' questions than the philosophical and pointlessly contentious 'why' questions.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Yes, some Catholics said the images were important while others said they were not.

Have you considered the possibility that for some, they are, and for some they are not? Liturgical Churches such as the RCC are dynamic, drawing from regional, ethenic, and 2000 years of historic traditions. Trying to put the RCC, and us Lutherans even, in a neat little box where all members, all regions, all dioceses are identical just does not work. While there is commonality of Doctrine, the diversity of practice is what makes these Churches what they are.

Already did and still am reading about it. I was hoping those who participate in those activities would give me more information easier. Do you know if Roman Catholics cense icons?

I have seen this done. I have seen it done in Lutheran Churches as well. Does every congregation do this? See what I posted above.

Why not? I'm more concerned about the more intellectual and factual 'what' and 'how much' questions than the philosophical and pointlessly contentious 'why' questions.

It may be my pragmatic Lutheran upbringing or it may be my background in science; but it seems to me "Cause and Effect" are always the most important consideration that one must determine before one can start breaking down the whole into "what and how much". One must first understand what one is measuring, before one can actually measure it.

The answers you received here were addressing the "cause and effect"; speaking for myself, the what and how much really does not matter to me in the least.

 

[r035198x]

While there is commonality of Doctrine, the diversity of practice is what makes these Churches what they are.

I know people don't always practice their doctrine, e.t.c. I am asking about the doctrine not the practices.

It may be my pragmatic Lutheran upbringing or it may be my background in science; but it seems to me "Cause and Effect" are always the most important consideration that one must determine before one can start breaking down the whole into "what and how much". One must first understand what one is measuring, before one can actually measure it.

We had different scientific upbringings. I was taught that you examine the area where you can get as much facts as possible without running into philosophical arguments and assumptions.

...
The answers you received here were addressing the "cause and effect"; speaking for myself, the what and how much really does not matter to me in the least.

That's why those types of answers were off topic. I (the person who started the thread) am more interested in the 'what' and 'how much'. Those that know those things can answer that (some already have). Those interested in the causes e.t.c can discuss those in their own thread.

 

[laconicstudent]

I know people don't always practice their doctrine, e.t.c. I am asking about the doctrine not the practices.

This question has seriously been answered repeatedly.


" If we were in a hypothetical universe where icons were not part of apostolic worship, I don't see how things would be that much different. There simply wouldn't be any icons, and liturgies that use icons would instead have developed slightly differently. There would still be apostolic succession, Tradition, etc."

" You said "would it be outrageous?" You didn't ask if there would be outrage. I said yes to "would it be outrageous" because it makes no sense to remove what was already there and is valid. It's like asking to remove the roof of your house. Sure it could be done. You could still live in your house. You could even put a tarp up for when it rains.

You would have something akin to a functional dwelling, but you wouldn't have the full experience of a dwelling. It's also because iconoclasm was condemned as a heresy. If there would be any outrage, it would be because the Church had fallen into heresy (which it cannot do)."


"
Yes, if iconoclasts took away the images from my Church (as happened in the Peasants Revolt in Germany during Luther's life time), we would be as upset as he was.

Would it affect our Doctrine and Worship; NO!"

" Icons are a necessary part of Christian theology. Otherwise iconoclasm, the rejection of icons, would not be condemned as a heresy. They are not mandatory to use, however, unless it be prescribed that their use is mandatory in certain contexts (e.g. liturgy). It's the same thing with praying to Saints. You don't have to pray to the Saints, but you must believe in the Communion of Saints as explained by the Church. That is, believe it is possible to pray to them to ask for their intercession to God. "


" Eastern liturgies make use of them frequently. They may also show up sometimes in Western liturgies. "

" Your question is not clear because it is vague and incomplete. Why would these icons be removed? What is the intent behind it? If they are removed because of iconoclasm, those churches that remove their icons will have fallen into heresy. If they are removed because of financial reasons, then it would not be a problem--though some might find the church a bit drab."



" That depends on what you consider essential practice and doctrine. As I have said, iconoclasm was condemned as a heresy for a reason. If icons did not matter, iconoclasm would have never been a problem.

At the very core of Catholicism, it might be argued that icons are a secondary necessity. However, they are still a necessity.
"


" Iconoclasm was rejected as heretical not because images are "necessary", but because Iconoclasm rejects the inherent goodness of the visible and created as means by which God shows Himself to us--Iconoclasm was rejected as heretical because it was seen as dangerous, leading ultimately toward a practical (or even real) rejection of the Incarnation itself."


" I don't think the removal of images or icons from a Catholic church would make any different to the theology ot belief system. It may effect some part of their religious practice but that would not alter the theology; in my opinion."

 

[r035198x]

Quoting a bunch of text, some relevant, some completely irrelevant, some contradicting, some pointless attacks will not go a long way to proving any point to me.

Those who know the Catholic doctrine and want to answer me will just point out Catholic activities that use images and state the importance of those activities in the doctrine. They could also point out good research material I can read to get the answers myself.

Those that either don't know the Catholic doctrine, are worried about why I'm asking the question, do not understand the question or are simply unhappy about the question can either stay away from the thread or post whatever they want and get ignored by me.

 

[laconicstudent]

Quoting a bunch of text, some relevant, some completely irrelevant, some contradicting, some pointless attacks will not go a long way to proving any point to me.

They aren't irrelevant, only conflict in that they come from different people.

If you can't see how this relates to your OP, you are simply over your head.

Those who know the Catholic doctrine and want to answer me will just point out Catholic activities that use images and state the importance of those activities in the doctrine. They could also point out good research material I can read to get the answers myself.

They've already done so. The last Roman Catholic to post in your thread has lost patience with you

Your question has already been answered numerous times. I don't know why you're still asking it. Go look up the rubrics of the Mass/Liturgy and find where icons are used. That's about as "self-contained" as you'll get.

You cannot ask about "activities and their importance" while being deliberately disinterested in the reason for importance.

Those that either don't know the Catholic doctrine, are worried about why I'm asking the question, do not understand the question or are simply unhappy about the question can either stay away from the thread or post whatever they want and get ignored by me.

People who know the "Catholic doctrine" have answered you repeatedly. It would appear the last Roman Catholic left in disgust, however. Nobody is worried/unhappy about your question, although yes, it is looking more and more like you are just fishing for an excuse to start yet another iconoclasm thread with your refusal to accept "It wouldn't do anything" for an answer.

 

[r035198x]

..
They've already done so. The last Roman Catholic to post in your thread has lost patience with you...

Where did I mention that I have not received any helpful answers? Are you reading at all what I'm posting? Did you read my reply to Dark_Lite where I acknowledged that I am looking up the rubrics of the Mass/Liturgy?

... it is looking more and more like you are just fishing for an excuse to start yet another iconoclasm thread with your refusal to accept "It wouldn't do anything" for an answer.

I can't change how you think nor do I really care about proving to you (or anyone else) that you are wrong about my intentions.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Yes, some Catholics said the images were important while others said they were not.

Only two Catholics have posted in this thread, and both have told you they are important.

Already did and still am reading about it. I was hoping those who participate in those activities would give me more information easier. Do you know if Roman Catholics cense icons?

Probably in the Eastern Rites. Maybe in the Latin Rite, but I've never seen it.

Why not? I'm more concerned about the more intellectual and factual 'what' and 'how much' questions than the philosophical and pointlessly contentious 'why' questions.

It's like asking about the nature of a ham and cheese sandwich by counting the number of cheese slices on display at your local deli.

Also, need I remind you of your actual original question?

If Catholics were to remove all the images they have/distribute in their churches, how would that affect their doctrine or faith? Is the suggestion completely outrageous to the Catholic faith?

I have no idea how this morphed into "please give me an exact count of many different uses of icons there are." Your original question, as you originally posed it, has been answered in this thread many times. Your secondary question, which is not your original question, about how much icons are used, has also been answered in the form of "look it up in the rubrics." It may not be the most detailed answer you want, but it's an answer.

 

[r035198x]

..
Also, need I remind you of your actual original question?
I have no idea how this morphed into "please give me an exact count of many different uses of icons there are." Your original question, as you originally posed it, has been answered in this thread many times. Your secondary question, which is not your original question, about how much icons are used, has also been answered in the form of "look it up in the rubrics." It may not be the most detailed answer you want, but it's an answer.

The original question (I posted it so I know what it says) was

how would that affect their doctrine or faith?

Surely that is the same thing as examining how much the doctrine requires their use.
To be precise I wasn't asking how much the icons are used, but how much the doctrine specifies that they should be used. That is a request for the sections of the doctrine that describe where icons are required. If you feel (as you say) that you have answered me as much as you can on that question then thank you for the responses. I certainly have a better starting point now than I had when I posted the thread. If there are other Catholics willing to state other activities or give more reference material then I'd appreciate it if they are allowed to do so rather than be given the impression that there is no need for more help because the recepient is ungrateful (or iconoclastic or whatever).

Kind regards

r035198x

 

[Dark_Lite]

The original question (I posted it so I know what it says) was

Surely that is the same thing as examining how much the doctrine requires their use.

I quoted your first post in full. And no, "how would it affect Catholic doctrine" does not equal "please give me an exact count of the uses of icons in Christianity."

 

[Chris81]

If Catholics were to remove all the images they have/distribute in their churches, how would that affect their doctrine or faith? Is the suggestion completely outrageous to the Catholic faith?

Apologies for my ignorance of Catholicism, the question is actually an attempt to understand it better.

If you removed most of the images but kept most of the liturgy what you would have is high church Methodism.