If the Gospel was False... What Then???

[NewTestamentChristian]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If the Gospel were false

Congratulations on correct usage of subjunctive mood.

 

[partinobodycular]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

As near as I can tell my ideology is part stoicism and part Christianity, which in the end can be distilled down to Micah 6:8... Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God. It's not dependent upon Christ being the Son of God, it's dependent upon right being right. So I never have to ask myself... is it in keeping with God's word, all that I have to ask myself is... is it just, and is it merciful... anything beyond that is for apologists to decide.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

If it is, that means there is no Saviour, there is no payment for our sins and God's wrath remain on us, and the whole humanity will be in hell

 

[Lost4words]

For me, i would still believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

 

[Clare73]

Congratulations on correct usage of subjunctive mood.

Almost. . .

"But hypothetically, if He wasn't"

 

[Clare73]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

If the Gospel were false, Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life. They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience, offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe. Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this), and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant. But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets. Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

The gospel is not about an ordered, virtuous and meaningful life.

The gospel is about
1) the condemnation of all mankind,
2) faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin,
3) salvation from God's wrath on sin at the final judgment,
4) being reborn as a son of God,
5) living as a child of God in the power of the Holy Spirit,
which will necessarily result in an ordered, virtuous and meaningful life.

 

[partinobodycular]

If it is, that means there is no Saviour, there is no payment for our sins and God's wrath remain on us, and the whole humanity will be in hell

For me, i would still believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...

The point of the OP isn't that it's a matter of stoicism or Christianity. At its core stoicism is simply Christianity without the religion. It's about the patience, virtue, and solemnity of Christianity without the creeds, mandates, and dogma of those who've institutionalized it.

It doesn't ask you to give up anything, it simply asks you to live a virtuous life. That's it, that's stoicism.

 

[partinobodycular]

The gospel is not about an ordered, virtuous and meaningful life.

The gospel is about
1) faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin,
2) salvation from God's wrath on sin at the final judgment,
3) being reborn as a son of God,
4) living as a child of God in the power of the Holy Spirit,
which will necessarily result in an ordered, virtuous and meaningful life.

Stoicism never claims to be the cause of salvation, but as your last line clearly points out, oftentimes it's the evidence for it.

Show me a stoic and I may not be able to show you a Christian, but I'll show you a person that's got the heart of one.

 

[Clare73]

Stoicism never claims to be the cause of salvation, but as your last line clearly points out, oftentimes it's the evidence for it.

Show me a stoic and I may not be able to show you a Christian, but I'll show you a person that's got the heart of one.

Stoic means not affected by passion or feeling; especially manifesting indifference to pleasure or pain.

That is not evidence of a Christian.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Almost. . .

"But hypothetically, if He wasn't"

Well, yeah, but I was referencing only the part I quoted.

 

[partinobodycular]

Stoic means not affected by passion or feeling; especially manifesting indifference to pleasure or pain.

It's not indifference to the passion and pain of others, it's indifference to the passion and pain of oneself. Which is what enables one to sacrifice one's own well-being for the well-being of others... and that's the heart and soul of being a Christian. You need look no further than the cross to realize that.

 

[Hans Blaster]

And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty (1 Corinthians 15:14).

I'll grant this to Paul -- he does at least understand that preaching about what is false is a waste of time.

If the Gospel were false,

what if it was recorded on a genuine Cardassian isolytic data rod?

Stoicism and Confucian-Daoist philosophy represent humanity’s best hope for an ordered, virtuous, and meaningful life.

Why do we want that, again?

They echo Jesus’ ethical teachings through natural reason and lived experience,

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember any "natural reason" in the Gospel teachings of Jesus.

offering guidance rooted in the sovereignty of God and the idea that God has ordered a moral universe.

More things I don't need. I think it is more likely that a god has made the universe than one has made morality.

Stoicism offers virtue (arete/virtus) as the highest good, mastering control over our emotions (cultivate the healthy ones and learn how to tame the negative ones), rational thinking as a remedy to overthinking (those logismoi that bother us all... Evagrius Ponticus is a great writer on this),

Live long and prosper.

and surrender to the Divine Logos that orders all things. Confucianism and Daoism offer us moral cultivation through virtuous living, an ordered universe (The Five Relationships for example), an example that man can live up to, namely, the Junzi (Gentleman/Noble Man) and the Zhenren (True Person), and acceptance of the will of Tian (Heaven) regardless of whatever the outcomes may be

Pass.

. If Christ was not raised from the dead, His ethical framework would not be unimportant.

Why? I thought the whole things was premised around him being resurrected?

But... Christ is the Son of God risen in three days as foretold by the Prophets.

Where? I thought the only one fortelling the resurrection of Jesus was Jesus himself. (in the post hoc writings of the Gospels)

Christ is the fulfillment of all things. But hypothetically if He wasn't, man still must strive to do the good; We would either give into nihilism or relativism.

No thanks.

 

[Clare73]

It's not indifference to the passion and pain of others, it's indifference to the passion and pain of oneself. Which is what enables one to sacrifice one's own well-being for the well-being of others...

One is not indifferent to one's own suffering, one chooses to endure it.

and that's the heart and soul of being a Christian. You need look no further than the cross to realize that.

Was Jesus stoicly "indifferent" (not affected by passion or feeling; especially manifesting indifference to pleasure or pain), or did Jesus suffer the extreme displeasure, repugnance and aversion of divine Holiness in the presence of pure Evil.

Would you be indifferent in the presence of the butchering of babies?
Or would you suffer if your were unable to keep from watching such an event?

 

[partinobodycular]

One is not indifferent to one's own suffering, one chooses to endure it.

Absolutely correct. But 'indifference' was the word that you chose to use. I probably would've chosen something else.

In the case of both stoicism and Jesus in Gethsemane it's not that we don't feel fear, trepidation, and pain, it's as you said, that we choose to endure it. And every time that you choose to do the same, you're being stoic. It's just something that Christians are called to do... to forgo their own well-being in lieu of the well-being of others. And this is true whether someone calls themselves a Christian or not... to sacrifice yourself for the well-being of others is to be a Christian... is to be a stoic... and just as it says 'Agnostic' in my profile, sometimes what one calls themselves can be misleading. Sometimes being a Christian isn't as simple as a name in a profile.

But even if Christ never died on that cross, the world would still be filled with Christianity. Every time that one person sacrifices themselves for someone else, that's Christianity. That's what Christ was demonstrating on that cross. That's the path to salvation that He was showing us. Humanity finds salvation not simply because Christ died, but because we follow... not the name, but the act. And then just as Jesus did in Gethsemane... we become stoics.

Would you be indifferent in the presence of the butchering of babies?

Hopefully not. But I'm human, and I often find myself being indifferent to things that I really wish that I wasn't. I can't tell you how many times that I've heard of hospitals being bombed, and children being killed, and yet I felt nothing. Neither Christians nor stoics are without their regrets. We're human.

Or would you suffer if your were unable to keep from watching such an event?

Humanity often causes me to suffer, but I'm a stoic and perhaps a Christian, and so I endure. I presume that you do the same.

 

[Clare73]

Absolutely correct. But 'indifference' was the word that you chose to use.

I didn't choose the word. . .it is the definition of "stoic."

 

[partinobodycular]

I didn't choose the word. . .it is the definition of "stoic."

I'm not one to get bogged down in semantics...but to be honest, I do much prefer your usage of the term 'endurance' over 'indifference'. But you're free to define things however you see fit, and if I can't convince you otherwise then that's on me.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I didn't choose the word. . .it is the definition of "stoic."

Are you a prescriptivist or a descriptivist?

 

[Clare73]

Are you a prescriptivist or a descriptivist?

Both?

 

[partinobodycular]

Stoic means not affected by passion or feeling; especially manifesting indifference to pleasure or pain.

I wanted to clarify something. For me personally, when it comes to pleasure and pain, indifference is often the correct word to use. But I've been a stoic for a very long time, and I've learned that life isn't always easy, and what I can be indifferent to, others will see as having to be endured. And it's not because I'm better than them, it's simply because I'm not them. I haven't lived what they've lived and I haven't endured what they've endured. Life is about me doing me, you doing you, and me being content with that.

In the end I can't judge anybody, and if you and I disagree about things then that's fine, both the stoic in me and the Christian in me can accept that. All that I'm really trying to say is that there's a similarity between how the stoic in me approaches life, and how the Christian in me approaches life, with a willingness to faithfully accept it for what it is... and to extend the same courtesy to others.