If The Book of Mormon is false then why does the Bible make reference to it?

[pyro457]

Do you honestly believe that Jesus only came for the Jews? He came for all, first the Jews then the Gentiles.

John 10

1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

​

Are you suggesting that if we did not hear Christ's voice before He ascended to heaven, that we are not one of His sheep? I hear His voice and follow Him. He is my Shepherd.

John 10

9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

​

I hope that you noticed that the Good Sheperd lays down His life for His sheep. Jesus did not only die for the Jews, but for whosoever that believes in Him. He died for both Jew and Gentile. He gave His life for His sheep.

Where did I say that Christ did not come for the Gentiles? I said that he did not speak to them directly, they would hear from Chists servants. Christ was sent "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24. The Gentiles were not part of the house of Israel. And no where did I say that Christ only laid down his life for the Jews! I belive that he laid down his life for everyone who will belive in him.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I am not sure if I am missing something.

God created everything, so that means He created Satan, who tempted Eve.

God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden. Also in the Garden was the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge between good and evil. Then he told Adam and Eve, even knowing their weaknesses, don't eat of those trees.

Before He created the heavens and the earth (and man), He created the Son.

If God didn't want man to fall, he would either not have created Satan, or He would not have put those trees in the Garden. And He would not have given man the freedom to choose if He didn't expect (and prepare for) the consequences.

If God didn't want man to fall, why would He have created the Son, whose purpose was to redeem man?

Maybe someone else can come up with a more logical interpretation.

Are God's way above that of man's ways?



Yes, God did create Satan and then Satan tempted Adam and Eve but God did not tempt Adam and Eve, Satan did.



Also, What do you mean by saying that Jesus is "created"? Do you mean His human form was created when He took on the form of man, or do you mean that Jesus in His entirety, was created by God the Father?

 

[CrownCaster]

I am not sure if I am missing something.

God created everything, so that means He created Satan, who tempted Eve.

God created Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden. Also in the Garden was the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge between good and evil. Then he told Adam and Eve, even knowing their weaknesses, don't eat of those trees.

Before He created the heavens and the earth (and man), He created the Son.

If God didn't want man to fall, he would either not have created Satan, or He would not have put those trees in the Garden. And He would not have given man the freedom to choose if He didn't expect (and prepare for) the consequences.

If God didn't want man to fall, why would He have created the Son, whose purpose was to redeem man?

Maybe someone else can come up with a more logical interpretation.

Couple of problems here-

1- Lucifer was not created in an evil manner. He was originally an angel who was in heaven and not corrupt.

2- Jesus was NOT created. He IS the Creator.

3- Just because God gave his creation the right to choose to disobey Him does not mean that was what He wanted. If you are a parent you will understand this. We give our children room to make decisions but we hope they will make the right one. God knew the decision that Adam and Eve would make though and had a plan already mapped out to redeem the fallen ones from the penalty of that decision. His plan was to step off of His throne and take on a human body and suffer the penalty we deserve but could never pay.

 

[A New Dawn]

Couple of problems here-

1- Lucifer was not created in an evil manner. He was originally an angel who was in heaven and not corrupt.

I did not say he was created in an evil manner. I just said God created him.

2- Jesus was NOT created. He IS the Creator.

OK, I will give you that one. He is the creator of the heavens and earth and everything that is in them, but we will not know the true nature of the godhead till the next world.

3- Just because God gave his creation the right to choose to disobey Him does not mean that was what He wanted. If you are a parent you will understand this. We give our children room to make decisions but we hope they will make the right one. God knew the decision that Adam and Eve would make though and had a plan already mapped out to redeem the fallen ones from the penalty of that decision. His plan was to step off of His throne and take on a human body and suffer the penalty we deserve but could never pay.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. He created us and left us to our nature, knowing what we would choose. If he wanted otherwise, he would either have created us different, not given us the right to choose, or not put temptation in our way.

 

[unbound]

pyro:Christ was sent "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matt. 15:24. The Gentiles were not part of the house of Israel.

unbound: WHOA! Not so fast....
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The Israelites came FROM the Gentiles! Dont you get it? The Gentiles ARE the lost sheep!:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

LDS teachings are false! Read the bible!

 

[happyinhisgrace]

OK, I will give you that one. He is the creator of the heavens and earth and everything that is in them, but we will not know the true nature of the godhead till the next world.

Why do you think that? We can know the nature of God by the study of His Holy Word.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. He created us and left us to our nature, knowing what we would choose. If he wanted otherwise, he would either have created us different, not given us the right to choose, or not put temptation in our way.

Actually, just because God loved man enough to give us our free will, does not mean that he wanted man to sin. God never condones or promotes sin.

 

[Serapha]

If the Book of Mormon is false, as so many claim it to be, then why does the Bible make reference to another book of scripture which can be resonably judged to be The Book of Mormon?
The Scriptures I am talking about are Ezekiel 37:15-17, Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, Isaiah 2:2-5, and John 10:16.

In Ezekiel 37:15-17, Ezekiel prophesied about the joining of two "sticks" from different parts of the House Israel, one from the tribe of Judah and one from the tribe of Ephraim (from Joseph). These "sticks" refer to two volumes of scripture. The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel 37 is not the usual word for stick, but is "etz", which means a wooden tablet. Wooden tablets, based on modern archaeological data, were used as a writing tablet on which a layer of wax was coated for writing with a stylus. These tablets appear to have been a major medium of writing in the ancient world, though few survived because wood rots. The tablets were like pages of a book that could be bound together to make a book. Based on the Hebrew and based on what we now know about the use of "etz" as a writing medium, Ezek. 37:15-17 makes sense as a prophecy of two volumes of scripture that would be united in the last days. These volumes are the Bible (from the tribe of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (from the tribe of Joseph, for the founders of the Nephite people who came out of Jerusalem were descendants of Joseph). Now I know there are probally other translations of this verse (there always are) but this one makes a lot of sense and includes historical data to back it up....

Hi there!




I am still looking for the sources on the archaeological statements and the historical statements....


~serapha~

 

[A New Dawn]

Why do you think that? We can know the nature of God by the study of His Holy Word.

Because to know God fully would require us to be perfect, and we are not perfect. Because God has not revealed enough of Himself to his servants for us to make that leap.

Actually, just because God loved man enough to give us our free will, does not mean that he wanted man to sin. God never condones or promotes sin.

I was not saying that God condoned or promoted sin. I am saying that he knew it was going to happen and prepared a way for man to be redeemed. I believe that what we will be redeemed to will be a much better place than the Garden of Eden because those who will be in eternity with God will be there because they chose to be there, not because they were too innocent to do otherwise. Without the fall, we couldn't make that choice. And that is what it is all about. Making the choice for the Father. Giving glory to Him. And man is that he might have joy.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Because to know God fully would require us to be perfect, and we are not perfect. Because God has not revealed enough of Himself to his servants for us to make that leap.

God has revealed enough in His Holy Word that we can know of His nature and how it compares to the nature of man.

God is all powerful, we are not
God has always existed, we have not
God creates something out of nothing, we can not
God is all holy and pure, we are not
God is perfection, we are not
God is all knowing, we are not
God is self-sustaining, we are not
God is without sin or flaw, we are not
God is capable of being anywhere at anytime, we are not
God is creator, we are created
God consists of 3 persons, we do not

There are many more but that is a good start as to the nature of God and what he has provided to us about Himself.

I was not saying that God condoned or promoted sin. I am saying that he knew it was going to happen and prepared a way for man to be redeemed. I believe that what we will be redeemed to will be a much better place than the Garden of Eden because those who will be in eternity with God will be there because they chose to be there, not because they were too innocent to do otherwise. Without the fall, we couldn't make that choice. And that is what it is all about. Making the choice for the Father. Giving glory to Him. And man is that he might have joy.

You don't believe that Adam and Eve, before they sinned were a glory to God?

The "Adam fell that man might be and men are that they might have joy", still goes against Biblical teachings. The BofM in this instance does not back-up or support the Bible but rather goes contrary to it. For this BofM scripture to be correct, it would mean that Adam's fall was a good thing and that it was nessessary. The Bible says it was a sin, that it brought sin into the world and God cast them out of the garden because of it. Also, don't forget that in the Word of God, like I said before, God tells them to multiply BEFORE they ever sinned against Him.

So, as far as I see it, you have 3 options here.

1. God gave them a command to multiply but didn't provide them with a way to do it. (Which totally goes against the nature of God)
2. God gave them a command but made it so they had to commit sin against Him first to fullfill the command of a righteous God. (Totally goes against the nature of God)
3. It is just like the Bible says.

 

[A New Dawn]

God has revealed enough in His Holy Word that we can know of His nature and how it compares to the nature of man.

God is all powerful, we are not
God has always existed, we have not
God creates something out of nothing, we can not
God is all holy and pure, we are not
God is perfection, we are not
God is all knowing, we are not
God is self-sustaining, we are not
God is without sin or flaw, we are not
God is capable of being anywhere at anytime, we are not
God is creator, we are created
God consists of 3 persons, we do not

There are many more but that is a good start as to the nature of God and what he has provided to us about Himself.

That is a wonderful start, but I am sure there is much more to God than that. Even if you went through the Bible and listed all the known attributes of God, I am sure there would be much more than that, even.

You don't believe that Adam and Eve, before they sinned were a glory to God?

We are to glorify God. Adam and Eve could not do that because, before the fall, they didn't know the bad, they only knew the good. How can you appreciate the good, and give glory to God for it if you have never experienced the bad?

The "Adam fell that man might be and men are that they might have joy", still goes against Biblical teachings. The BofM in this instance does not back-up or support the Bible but rather goes contrary to it. For this BofM scripture to be correct, it would mean that Adam's fall was a good thing and that it was nessessary. The Bible says it was a sin, that it brought sin into the world and God cast them out of the garden because of it. Also, don't forget that in the Word of God, like I said before, God tells them to multiply BEFORE they ever sinned against Him.

So, as far as I see it, you have 3 options here.

1. God gave them a command to multiply but didn't provide them with a way to do it. (Which totally goes against the nature of God)
2. God gave them a command but made it so they had to commit sin against Him first to fullfill the command of a righteous God. (Totally goes against the nature of God)
3. It is just like the Bible says.

Whatever the reason that they didn't multiply, they didn't do it in the Garden. Why is that?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Whatever the reason that they didn't multiply, they didn't do it in the Garden. Why is that?

I don't know if they did or not, the Bible doesn't say. What I do know, is that God would not give a command and then make them sin against Him in order to fullfill that command. God can not look upon the least degee of sin with tolorance. He surely isn't going to make one HAVE to sin to follow a commandment.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't know if they did or not, the Bible doesn't say. What I do know, is that God would not give a command and then make them sin against Him in order to fullfill that command. God can not look upon the least degee of sin with tolorance. He surely isn't going to make one HAVE to sin to follow a commandment.

I think that if Adam and Eve had had a family in the Garden, they would have continued to be their family on the outside. So it is pretty safe to say that they did not multiply in the Garden.

I don't think that the statement in the BoM about Adam falling so man might be is a statement that we had to sin in order to be, but that that is just the way it was. To believe anything else is to read too much into it.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I think that if Adam and Eve had had a family in the Garden, they would have continued to be their family on the outside. So it is pretty safe to say that they did not multiply in the Garden.

I don't think that the statement in the BoM about Adam falling so man might be is a statement that we had to sin in order to be, but that that is just the way it was. To believe anything else is to read too much into it.

Let's take "Adam fell that men might be" all by itself, without anything else. Even that statement right there contradicts the Word of God because it says that for man to exist, Adam had to sin against God and we know from the Bible that God told them to multiply BEFORE they sinned. Would God give a commandment and then make it so one had to sin in order to fullfill the commandment? NO

 

[Svt4Him]

"The word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these? Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes."

Many Mormons insist that the sticks mentioned in the foregoing verses actually speak of books. One of the books, they insist, is the Bible, while the other is the Book of Mormon. One Mormon leader who championed this notion was LDS Apostle LeGrand Richards. On page 67 of his book A Marvelous Work and A Wonder, he quotes Ezekiel 37:15-20 and concludes, "In ancient times it was the custom to write on parchment and roll it on a stick. Therfore, when this command was given, it was the equivalent of directing that two books or records should be kept." Is such a conclusion plausible? Was Ezekiel speaking of two records that were to be kept?

First of all we must examine the Hebrew word used in the above passages. In doing so we find that the word used, "aits," speaks of a literal piece of wood, not books or scrolls as Mormons often insist. Consider 1 Kings 17:12. This passage reads:

"So he [Elijah] arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold the widow woman was there gathering sticks."

Elijah asks her for some water and a morsel of bread, to which the woman responds by telling the prophet:

"I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruise [pitcher]: and, behold I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress [prepare] it for me and my son, that we may eat it and die."

Was the widow of Zarapath gathering books? If your answer is no, then there is no consistency in claiming the sticks of Ezekiel 37 are books since both passages use the same word.

Another set of passages to consider is 2 Kings 6:1-7. The Bible tells how, during the act of cutting down a tree, the axe head fell off its handle and landed in the water. Distressed because the axe was borrowed, the man who was using the axe sought the aid of Elisha the prophet. Pointing out where the axe head landed, Elisha proceeds to "cut down a stick" and cast it into the water. Amazingly the iron axe head floats to the top. Now I don't believe I've ever heard a Mormon insist that Elisha cut down a book and threw it into the water. But again, if the Mormon wishes to insist that Ezekiel 37 speaks of books, and wants to be consistent at the same time, he must conclude Elisha cut a book off the tree since the word stick in verse 6 is the same Hebrew word that is Ezekiel 37:16ff.

Of course, the widow of Zarephath was not gathering books, any more than Elisha cut down a book from a tree. Neither was Ezekiel holding books (or scrolls) in his hand as Mormons all too often imply. Ezekiel 37 has nothing to say about the Book of Mormon. By using two literal sticks, Ezekiel was illustratively predicting the coming together of two nations, Judah and Israel, which had been separated since the time of King Rehoboam, nothing more. If the Mormon would continue reading to verse 22, he would see that this is clearly explained.

By Bill McKeever

 

[pyro457]

Isaiah 29:10-14, 18-19, 24, contains several references to The Book of Mormon.This chapter talks of a time of apostasy when prophecy would cease (v. 10, also v. 13), followed by a revelation containing a "vision of all" that would be in "a book that is sealed." Several details in verses 11 and 12 correlate well with the history of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon (with Prof. Charles Anthon as the learned man and Joseph Smith as the unlearned man). I see the book being involved in the process of restoration, the "marvelous work and a wonder" (vs. 13 and 14), for "the words of the book" would bring truth to the ears and eyes of those who had been deaf and blind (spiritually) (v.18, see also v.24). This book from a lost and destroyed civilization would "whisper out of the dust" (v. 4) to future generations. To me this says that The Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was known by Isaiah.

Has anyone taked about this verse yet? It says that there would be "a book that is sealed." The Bible never refers to itself as a book, so it cant be talking about itself (also when was the Bible sealed?). But the Book of Mormon was a sealed book. Infact when Joseph Smith translated it 2/3 of it remained sealed and he was not permited to translated that section, (for reasons known only by God). The Book of Mormon was also a book from a destroyed civilization. These verses seem to talk about a time of aptosasy when the "book that is sealed" would come and it says that in that time many men would "draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me" It says that they are taught by the traditions of men, by their precepts.

 

[Der Alte]

Has anyone taked about this verse yet? It says that there would be "a book that is sealed." The Bible never refers to itself as a book, so it cant be talking about itself (also when was the Bible sealed?). But the Book of Mormon was a sealed book. Infact when Joseph Smith translated it 2/3 of it remained sealed and he was not permited to translated that section, (for reasons known only by God). The Book of Mormon was also a book from a destroyed civilization. These verses seem to talk about a time of aptosasy when the "book that is sealed" would come and it says that in that time many men would "draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me" It says that they are taught by the traditions of men, by their precepts.

Hey this is a discussion forum. You are not dicussing, you are just cramming your opinions down people throats. There have been a lot of answers given and you have simply ignored them. You have been asked several times to produce evidence you claimed existed. Where is it?

Joseph Smith said that 2/3 of the BOM remained sealed and he was not permitted to translate it. I have never seen any proof of that.

 

[skylark1]

Pyro,

I hope that you at least read the responses to you. Der Alter is right, you have ignored the answers that have been given. I hope that you will go back and find the posts that actually address the OP, and comment on them.

You mentioned a prophesy of a sealed book. I think that you missed a key word. This is what is written in Isaiah 29:

11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed





John Gill wrote:

Isaiah 29:11



Ver. 11. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed[size=+1],.... The prophecies of all the prophets contained in the Scriptures; or all the prophecies in the book of Isaiah, concerning the Messiah, were no more seen, known, and understood, both by the priests and the people, than if they had been in a book, written, rolled up, and sealed. And this was owing, not to the obscurity of these writings, or because they were really sealed up, but to the blindness and stupidity of the people, whose eyes were closed, and their heads covered; and the prophecies of the Scriptures were only so to them, "unto you", not unto others; not to the apostles of Christ, whose understandings were opened by him, to understand the things written concerning him, in the law, in the prophets, and in the psalms; but the Jewish rulers, civil and ecclesiastical, as well as the common people, understood them not, though they were the means of fulfilling many of them; and they were as ignorant of the prophecies concerning their own ruin and destruction, for their rejection of Christ; see Lu 24:27[size=+1]:[/size][/size]


​

This isn't a reference to the BoM, or JS, but to Christ!

18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.
19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.





John Gill explained this so well:

Isaiah 29:18



Ver. 18. And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book[size=+1],.... That is, in the Gospel day, or times of the Gospel dispensation, when that should be preached to the Gentiles; who before were deaf, but now should be made to hear, and be willing to hear, and hear so as to understand the doctrines contained in the Scriptures, the prophecies of them concerning the Messiah; even the words of that book that is sealed to the Jews, and could not be read, neither by the learned nor unlearned among them; but should be both read, heard, and understood, by the Gentiles, having ears given them to hear the Gospel, to receive its doctrines, and obey its ordinances:

and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness[size=+1]; such, who before were blind and ignorant as to spiritual things, being called, through the ministry of the word, out of darkness into marvellous light, and their eyes being opened by it, should now see their sin and misery, their lost and dangerous estate, the way of life and salvation by Christ, the great and glorious truths of the Gospel, and what eye has not seen, nor ear heard[/size][/size]

​

 

[A New Dawn]

Let's take "Adam fell that men might be" all by itself, without anything else. Even that statement right there contradicts the Word of God because it says that for man to exist, Adam had to sin against God and we know from the Bible that God told them to multiply BEFORE they sinned. Would God give a commandment and then make it so one had to sin in order to fullfill the commandment? NO

I think we are just going to end up going round and round about this because I don't see what was said in the BoM scripture as a commandment and you do.

It was good chatting about this.

 

[unbound]

Skylark, you are right!

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Collosians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

PYRO PLEASE READ THESE REPLIES, THEY ARE THE TRUTH! Dont let those "teachers" keep you from hearing the truth by rolling Joseph Smiths religion into the bible! I know you "want" to believe it , and it "tastes" good, but in the end it is sour!

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I think we are just going to end up going round and round about this because I don't see what was said in the BoM scripture as a commandment and you do.

It was good chatting about this.

I am happy to end this discussion too at this point but I am a bit confused about your above statement. I do not believe that anything in the BofM is a commandment from God because I believe it is a work of fiction. Did you mean, "I don't see what was said in the Bible scripture as a commandment and you do"?