If the Bible contains much that is unreliable, what should we do about it?

[drich0150]

So I asked her what made her think the 66 books were the Word of God? Some of the books were anonymous. The gospels did not have the titles in our Bible today and even modern Bibles will tell you that some parts were not originally there. She said her Bible bore the words "Holy Bible" and that was good enough for her. You just can't argue with her. I told her about the Muratorian Fragment and she shut her ears and prayed out loud!!! I actually felt contempt for her when she behaved that way. She was the one who sought me out to try to change me into a Baptist. She told me my altar boy surplice was Satan's garb which was insulting but when I told her what can easily be found even in FF Bruce's book, she shut her ears and prayed out loud.

Young Brother,
Backing a faith bearing person in to a corner and holding and level of contempt for them is not a search for knowledge.. It's a witch hunt..
If a stranger came into your aunts house with a gun meaning to do her harm, and she only had a brief moment to decide what to do..
what do you think her response would be?? I should say it would be the same as what she showed you when you took all of her options away, she'd turn to God.

What was your contempt for? Faith with out knowledge? or her lack of understanding of the conjecture and speculation, that you have devoted the last three years to? Or do you know of a well defined biblical example of holding contempt for those who love without knowledge that we should follow?

You said, "God NEVER replies." I beg to differ. God answers all of his Children prayers, Even if we don't find the answers to our liking, or if the answers don't fit our time frame. we have the answers just the same. Haven't you ever asked your Mother for something, and she said no? Was she being heartless or silent for the sake of remaining silent?? or was it for your benefit in some way??

Lost children:
The mothers of lost children serve as a reminder to the rest of us where we really are..
We have not made it to "paradise" we are still in this lost world, the same world where The Father lost his Son to a brutal death. Why should we expect to live better than than Jesus did?? many of us do, but i should say this isn't a promise or a civil right of any kind. We have forgotten, Who we are, what we are here for, and were we have come from.. our luxuries have become our lives. and I dare to say, lost children are a strong reminder of that. These "children," taken in their appropriate context are blessing. There lives should be a reminder that we aren't even promised tomorrow, let alone all of the "naming and claiming" that goes on.. The deaths of such innocents should ground and humble us, to the foolishness of what "christianity" has become. But instead of looking at the harsh truth, we blindly seek answers that we donot want to understand.

Church martyrs:
You should know better than anyone, that the Brothers of the early Church the "martyrs" Bought and paid for the christian movement with there blood.. Yes I'm sure they prayed to be freed from the roman torture, but their death, their Testimonies, there unwillingness to yield there faith before death. Quick set a unstable movement with internal bickering, and divisions, to a boldly proclaiming the truth movement of salvation.. To the Roman world and beyond, ensuring and preserving Christianity for future Generations.. If given the choice of paving the away for the gospel to be preserved for over two thousand years, and death. or. a long life, but Christianity dies with my generation. i would choose Death. I'm sure many others given the choice, (and they were,) they too would have chosen death.


The Jews and the nazi's:
The only thing God promised the jews was a life of suffering and pain if they didn't concede his will.. This isn't they got what they deserved speech. but one that full fills many earlier prayers. Since the fall of "Holy city" at the end of the 1st century. the jews have been praying for restoration.. they were a people with out a country for nearly 2000 years.. in all that time, you don't think not once, anyone ever asked for reunification?
Well, the harsh reality of this world is, even durning the reign of our "Greatest Generation" at the peak of their power. (after WWII)
No one was just going to Give the jews back their home land.. This "Gift" was a sort of penance from the world for turning a blind eye for nearly ten years to the atrocities the nazi's were responsible for..
plus do you think Israel was ready to be a nation after 2000 years of separation and infighting?? No, those who were lost and the way they were lost, bought back the holy land with there blood, and reunified the "remnant".. And to a true Jew if given the choice of 2000 more years of exile or their life, I'd dare to say there would be few who would choose exile.

I say all of this to say, God does answers prayers.. Just because we don't get the story book ending or nice neat prepackaged answer, doesn't mean he doesn't answer prayers. Although what I'm going to say is in the bible. I'm not Quoting it.. His ways are not your ways.. your understanding of others interpretations of the "old writings" is impressive.. but even if you could absorb everything written about scripture.. your knowledge will still be far from complete.

Would you have a god you could understand? could you serve a "master" that only after three years of research you could anticipate? There is more to "it" than commentary. or even blind faith.. there is one element that the "faith-ers" have that is easily lost on the "learn-ed" love.. with love you can bridge the Gap between you and God. but there is no amount of knowledge that will ever fill the void.

What did all three of your examples of unanswered prayer, and my telling of the "Forrest & Bubba" story have in common? There was a great "storm" before any of those people got the benefit or the fruit that they wanted... I suggested if you wanted to really know what to do or where to go, to ask for the "storm"..
If you mother asked you to help her understand a basic biblical principle wouldn't you help her? Now if you are inherently Evil, how much better will your Father in heaven's gift to you to be?? Especially if you seek what he wants for you in your life.

I have prayed to God for help

You may not like what I've had to say, or how it was delivered to you, but the basic message of your selfrightous pride as a result of your relentless quest for knowledge.
Is keeping you from the spirit..
Keeping you from God..
Hindering your learning..
keeping you from true wisdom..
This was an answer, to your prayer for help.. You asked for help, i've suggested away to get it. I've shown you examples of your indiscretion towards your Aunt, and devotion to your form of religious expression, to the exclusion of everything else. including forging a relationship with God himself. And I suggested a way of accomplishing all of this.

I know this may all sound judgemental, and presumptuous but it is buy your fruit, or lack of it that you are known.
You can't say God doesn't answer prayers.. you can say how ever you don't approve of the answers.

 

[Chickapee]

You said, "God NEVER replies." I beg to differ. God answers all of his Children prayers, Even if we don't find the answers to our liking, or if the answers don't fit our time frame. we have the answers just the same. Haven't you ever asked your Mother for something and she said no? Was she being heartless or silent for the sake of remaining silent?? or was it for your benefit in some way??

AGREED! GOD always answers prayers ,
sometimes the answer is No .....

God knows all things , our hearts , even before we ask , Jesus touched on these things to help us ..
God bless C

 

[beamishboy]

AGREED! GOD always answers prayers ,
sometimes the answer is No .....

God knows all things , our hearts , even before we ask , Jesus touched on these things to help us ..
God bless C

If God answers prayers, presumably, it should only be prayers of Christians because only our God is true. If that is so, there should be a statistical significance in hospitals of Christians' recoveries. Even if God answers "Yes" only 10% of the time, there should be a 10% recovery rate among Christians above all others. But all Christians (myself included) do not believe there is a statistical difference between recovery patterns of Christians and non-believers. Medical Journals don't report that either. I certainly can't believe it even if I try to convince myself.

I have asked this question before and someone said that I can't be sure God doesn't answer the prayers of people of other religions. But if that is so, there should be a statistical difference in the healing of theists (never mind which religion) and atheists. But again, I believe there is none.

I'm only picking health as an indicator but I believe there is no statistical difference in all areas of life. This leads me to conclude that God is non-intervening.

 

[Chickapee]

Hi Beamishboy ,
you made a good point , But what of
the healing , Jesus come to do ?

do you think its just physical or do you believe it can be [ soul & emotional] spiritual ?

Or like I believe it all can be done in His power
I cannot deny , a physical healing as well as emotional and spiritual healing
I am witness GOD CAN and does all of it as He so desires to do ,for some it is physical [as my daughters case] and for some the strength and ability to die , in FAITH and grace glorifying God still
I am also witness to this GLORY OF GOD over death
and death being the last enemy of all of us born mortal and subject to corruption


Now my comfort was in this thought when I was young in the FAITH [literal no faith really im sorry to say it , but its true ].. that God should heal if we asked it of Him ..
but after seeing a dear one , whom I love loose her little child with No answer from God as to WHY
and the struggle with Why God ?
and feeling helpless , with no real answers
all I can say is
when Jesus was about to endure the CROSS
HE asked the Heavenly Father if this ''cup'' [trial in sorrow ], cup
1) a cup, a drinking vessel
2) metaph. one's lot or experience, whether joyous or adverse, divine appointments, whether favourable or unfavourable, are likened to a cup which God presents one to drink: so of prosperity and adversity
could pass from Him or drink it , but in Obedience
He said not my will But the Fathers will be done

this accepting and drinking it , was trusting His Father and His will completely and the passing or going though it , making the experience
so hard at the time but when Jesus passed through the test with flying colors still pleasing the FATHER WELL in what He was doing enduring death for us , making the faith and WORKS PERFECT ,well to me this was the reason here .finding this so TRUE .

Hbr 2:9 But ''we see Jesus'', who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

now we ,as some would also have to go though the same ''baptisim '' in Christs death , following after
DO you realize this WAS BY THE GRACE OF GOD ??Jesus was to be tortured and die at the hands of sinners

not in GODS wrath , but in His grace ! Jesus Died for us , this is a hard thing to wrap around our small and very motal minds and comprehend , but this honor and glory to be revealed Christ was [chosen to suffer]

great
affliction ,, Peter was upset and mad that Jesus was going to go and die and He told Jesus so and Jesus told peter [get out of the way satan /adversary, your not thinking of the things of God but the things of men [ in so many words , paraphrased here :}]

this is why to me Paul could also say Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


see the same GLORY OF GOD CONNECTED HERE ?? THE CHRIST IN you the hope of Glory

you see to the carnal mind [ enemy of the Spirit of God and His Christ] this logic , would seem
ridiculous . pointless and down right unlogical
yet , where in the world would faith ever be exercised ?
and without faith mixed with works , Could we ALSO EVER PLEASE GOD ?

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

you see even if we die mortally , we have this HOPE still within us and promise of God we will never die , as we Believe Jesus is very much alive now and doing His glorious works and promises

perhaps , the carnal , mortal mind [ atheists , faithless non believers ]
puts way to much stock in the fleshly mortal living and no stock in the Spiritual Life that is eternal ?
GOD said Adam would die in transgression , this dust is cursed as GOD promised it should be and shall be as dust again ...
Its where ''we'' [our thoughts and emotions feelings literally souls ] focus on and trust in that makes the seperation and the DIFFERENCE for me anyways
if you listen to anyone , saying how they feel about God , you can ''see'' where they are at

I do hope this helps some how answer you questions Beamishboy
you have the same questions I have had , and I have had many more also to consider , wrestling with back and forth with ..........
At this time in my life ,I do ''rest'' more and am comforted more in Gods will and promises through Jesus Christ that anything is possible with God , and Thanking God for this peace I had never known before Christ come within to heal my broken heart and soul ..

with love in Christ ,,, C

 

[drich0150]

If God answers prayers, presumably, it should only be prayers of Christians because only our God is true.

I'm only picking health as an indicator but I believe there is no statistical difference in all areas of life. This leads me to conclude that God is non-intervening.

Have you ever heard the expression, "there are no atheist in fox holes?" It's referring to the fact when we are near death we all reach out to what ever expression of God we know of.

Scripture tells us, It rains on the just and unjust alike, meaning Gods Good gifts arenot reserved to "Christians" or to devout Jews of the day. It also tells us, God has mercy on whom ever he see fit to receive it.. this includes foxhole converts. So even if you can find a stat to fit your argument, It doesn't mean very much ,because when facing death were all in the same boat..

Meaning if, out of everyone who reached up regardless of religious belief or their lack of one. If God heals 10% including christians, will your statistics show who recovered from direct intervention?

You can make "stats" say what ever it is you want them to say.. The fact that I know and can show you a couple Christian base statistics the show the power of prayer. That should be enough to show you, that statistics are just a tool for a origination to push there agenda. Real decisions like a humbling yourself or Repenting of sin, to have a "Real" relationship with God shouldn't be based on something as trivial as a statistics.

 

[CShephard53]

Every child grows up believing almost literally everything in the Bible. That was what I went through myself as a young child. As I grew older, I realised that lots of things just can't be taken literally. Adam couldn't have been the first man and it couldn't have been 6000 years ago. That's fine, I revised my view of that portion of the Bible and I read Genesis not literally.

Why not view it literally? Adam, in Hebrew, means man. Not one, just man. The whole 6000 years bit is something humans came up with. It's not in the Bible. It's assumed.

I decided to discover for myself just how we got our Bible. I read two books: Bruce Metzger's "The Canon of the New Testament" and FF Bruce's "The Canon of Scripture". I read up about the writers and I found that while Metzger was considered liberal by some fundamentalist (he certainly produced the obnoxious Ehrman), FF Bruce was considered by most Christians to be evangelical and conservative. So I figured that whatever damage Metzger might do can easily be healed by FF Bruce. I've read one of FF Bruce's account of the canon (it's called "Is the NT reliable?")

What I didn't know was scholars like FF Bruce wear different hats. In "Is the NT reliable?" he was quite encouraging because he was writing to the masses. But his "The Canon of Scripture" is a scholastic work and he was NO DIFFERENT from Metzger. Both books taught me the same thing about how the NT books came about.

Interesting how you can know this stuff at 13... Amazing, really.


I've got some comments-
Read the book and test its concepts. See if they hold true. See if they can be applied to your own life. Take a glance at The Apologetics Study Bible.

 

[EvesAdam]

I don't know if I should post this or not as I am two days late. With so many commitments I can't spend much time on the forum.
-------------------
But here goes...

In Daniel 9:2 He was reading Jeremiah the prophet so that was considered God’s Word

In 2Peter 3:15 they are using Paul’s words as God’s Word.

Hebrews even though we are not sure who wrote it; also was considered God’s Words.

The writers could have been anyone of Luke, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Apollos, Epaphras, Silas or Priscilla, I doubt “Priscilla” in that time period I don’t think they would have considered making it part of Scriptures being a woman. (no; I am not sexes)

Hebrews is the doctrine of Christ both as high priest and sacrificial offering to atone for sin.

The writer appealed throughout the book to the O.T. assumed his readers knew the Jewish sacrificial rituals.

In 13:23 there is mention of Timothy so it had to be written during his lifetime and evidence of the temple; so it was before 70AD

The themes are...
The superiority of Christ.
Perseverance.
Faith pleases God.
Discipline comes to God’s children.
Christian Living.

The book is Scripturally sound so I for one have no problem with it even though I am not sure who wrote it.

I look at it like...

I went to a restaurant and had a great meal so I asked for the recipe. The meal was food for the body and now with that recipe I can make it when ever I want. I don’t know the cook who came up with the recipe but does it matter; the meal was/is great, it is still food for the body.

Hebrews is the restaurant and the message ( chapters, verses ) is the meal; food for the spirit and I can read it when ever I want. I don’t know the writer; but does it really matter?

In the “Received Text” - 2Timothy 3:16 is this---

Every scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching...

Every seems to mean all; it is not putting a limit on any of it.

2535 [2315] qeo/pneustoß, theopneustos, a. [2536 + 4463]. God-breathed, inspired by God, referring to a communication from deity

and

Spirit is...

4460 [4151] pneuvma, pneuma, n. [4463]. wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance

So I see “God-breathed” as His spirit that directed the writers -whom ever they were.

If God directed the writings of the Bible; He knew before time who, how, was to write it, and what would make it into the Bible. Again I have no problem with it.

The Bible “Scriptures” is not a history book; yes it has history or we can figure some of it out due to outside writing.

The Bible is a book on Salvation through Christ Jesus.

If your church or denomination has trouble teaching Salvation and not ? history ? then I would find another place to attend.

TGIF

 

[Chickapee]

Thanks EvesAdam

i also found this ?

Apollos
a Jew "born at Alexandria," a man well versed in the Scriptures and eloquent ( Act 18:24; R.V., "learned").

He came to Ephesus ( about A.D. 49), where he spake "boldly" in the synagogue ( 18:26), although he did not know as yet that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. Aquila and Priscilla instructed him more perfectly in "the way of God", i.e., in the knowledge of Christ.

He then proceeded to Corinth, where he met Paul ( Act 18:27; 19:1). He was there very useful in watering the good seed Paul had sown ( 1Cr 1:12), and in gaining many to Christ. His disciples were much attached to him ( 1Cr 3:4-7,22). He was with Paul at Ephesus when he wrote the First Epistle to the Corinthians; and Paul makes kindly reference to him in his letter to Titus ( Tts 3:13).

Some have supposed, although without sufficient ground, that he was the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

peace C

 

[beamishboy]

In the “Received Text” - 2Timothy 3:16 is this---

Every scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching...

Every seems to mean all; it is not putting a limit on any of it.

2535 [2315] qeo/pneustoß, theopneustos, a. [2536 + 4463]. God-breathed, inspired by God, referring to a communication from deity

and

Spirit is...

4460 [4151] pneuvma, pneuma, n. [4463]. wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance

So I see “God-breathed” as His spirit that directed the writers -whom ever they were.



TGIF

Hi, thanks for your highly informative post. I just want to say something. You quoted Timothy. Even if it says "every scripture", it doesn't mean all the books of our Bible, and certainly not the NT because by then, the NT was not yet all written. If the epistle to Timothy is Pauline, the Gospels were probably not written yet. So that verse couldn't have included the NT books.

In any event, I discovered that the word translated "scripture" actually is "grafia" (hehe, I love showing off Greek) which means simply, writing. That verse can also read "every writing that is God-breathed is profitable..." thus begging the question which writings are God-breathed. Doesn't mean all the NT books we accept today are God-breathed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi, thanks for your highly informative post. I just want to say something. You quoted Timothy. Even if it says "every scripture", it doesn't mean all the books of our Bible, and certainly not the NT because by then, the NT was not yet all written. If the epistle to Timothy is Pauline, the Gospels were probably not written yet. So that verse couldn't have included the NT books.

In any event, I discovered that the word translated "scripture" actually is "grafia" (hehe, I love showing off Greek) which means simply, writing. That verse can also read "every writing that is God-breathed is profitable..." thus begging the question which writings are God-breathed. Doesn't mean all the NT books we accept today are God-breathed.

What I like to do is copy the verses in the main 3 greek texts to wordpad [they are at the link below] then add the english words next to EACH greek word.

I have learned a lot in the NT I wouldn't have seen if not for this. I am retired so I have time to do this a lot with the Bible.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

grafh <1124> {WRITING}

(tr) NT) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa <3956> {EVERY} grafh <1124> {WRITING} qeopneustoV <2315> {GOD-BREATHED} kai <2532> {AND} wfelimoV (5624) {PROFITABLE} proV <4314> {TOWARD} didaskalian <1319> {TEACHING,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} elegcon <1650> {CONVICTION,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} epanorqwsin <1882> {CORRECTION,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} paideian <3809> {DISCIPLINE} thn <3588> {THE} en <1722> {IN} dikaiosunh <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS;}

Byz./Maj.) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa grafh qeopneustoV kai wfelimoV proV didaskalian proV elegcon proV epanorqwsin proV paideian thn en dikaiosunh

W-H ) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa grafh qeopneustoV kai wfelimoV proV didaskalian proV elegmon proV epanorqwsin proV paideian thn en dikaiosunh

 

[beamishboy]

What I like to do is copy the verses in the main 3 greek texts to wordpad [they are at the link below] then add the english words next to EACH greek word.

I have learned a lot in the NT I wouldn't have seen if not for this. I am retired so I have time to do this a lot with the Bible.

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

grafh <1124> {WRITING}

(tr) NT) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa <3956> {EVERY} grafh <1124> {WRITING} qeopneustoV <2315> {GOD-BREATHED} kai <2532> {AND} wfelimoV (5624) {PROFITABLE} proV <4314> {TOWARD} didaskalian <1319> {TEACHING,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} elegcon <1650> {CONVICTION,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} epanorqwsin <1882> {CORRECTION,} proV <4314> {TOWARD} paideian <3809> {DISCIPLINE} thn <3588> {THE} en <1722> {IN} dikaiosunh <1343> {RIGHTEOUSNESS;}

Byz./Maj.) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa grafh qeopneustoV kai wfelimoV proV didaskalian proV elegcon proV epanorqwsin proV paideian thn en dikaiosunh

W-H ) 2 Timothy 3:16 pasa grafh qeopneustoV kai wfelimoV proV didaskalian proV elegmon proV epanorqwsin proV paideian thn en dikaiosunh

Hi, I don't get your point. Sorry.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi, I don't get your point. Sorry.

Never mind. I saw you mention this so I thought I would post the Greek for ya.

LLOJ [sometimes wonders why he even bothers]

In any event, I discovered that the word translated "scripture" actually is "grafia" (hehe, I love showing off Greek) which means simply, writing.

 

[EvesAdam]

beamishboy...

Even if it says "every scripture", it doesn't mean all the books of our Bible, and certainly not the NT because by then, the NT was not yet all written.

It seems that you don't believe that God could know what was to be written before hand, who He would get to write it, how it was to be worded and make it all inclusive.

TGIF

 

[beamishboy]

It seems that you don't believe that God could know what was to be written before hand, who He would get to write it, how it was to be worded and make it all inclusive.

TGIF

I'm asking this in earnest so please do not think I'm being facetious.

Do you accept that God inspired the Septuagint which was accepted by some early Christians and the Eastern Orthodox as divinely inspired? You don't think much of it because presumably, you are an American Protestant.

Do you think God inspired the Diattesaron? It's still accepted by the Syriac line of churches as inspired. Do you accept it as inspired or that it should be used in lieu of the Gospels? Again, you probably don't think of it because you are a Protestant in the USA.

Do you consider the Didache, 1 Clement, Shepherd of Hermas, etc as divinely inspired? Many early Christians in the first two centuries did and would read from these books in church. You probably don't think of these books because you're a Protestant in the 21st century.

Do you think God inspired Tobit, Wisdom and all the Deutrocanonicals or Apocrypha that is accepted by RCs as equally inspired? For those who love the 1611 AV Bible, they should bear in mind that they only accept the 66 books although the AV translation or KJV included the apocryphal books. Tyndale's translation of the Bible into English also included the apocryphal books. You probably don't accept these as inspired because you're a Protestant and a non-Anglican. Some of these books from the apocrypha are included in some readings in church although they are very much played down.

The trouble with your argument is that you seem to think the Bible is just one collection of 66 books without any dispute from any quarter down through the centuries. And so you ask whether I think God wouldn't protect these 66 books to make sure they're his word and inerrantly so. I hope I've shown that to fix these books at 66 is in fact not historically correct. Even Martin Luther pushed at least four of the Catholic Epistles to a separate grouping in his Bible and he specifically commented on one of them (James) as an epistle of straws.

It's really not that simple.

 

[CShephard53]

It seems that you don't believe that God could know what was to be written before hand, who He would get to write it, how it was to be worded and make it all inclusive.

TGIF

Nice straw man. Or is it a fallacy of assumption? Either way it was totally uncalled for.

 

[drich0150]

I'm asking this in earnest so please do not think I'm being facetious.

You will not find God, or the answers you claim to seek in a academic study. If you truly seek answers, then you will have to seek them spiritually. If you allow yourself to read past the conjecture and satire of these "commentaries" you so enjoy debating, you would plainly see the point of scripture.. the essences of it, is written to the meek, humble, "the last."
God inspired academics are always found after basic faith and understanding have been established..

Most of the men you quote and the Ideas you mimic, are all based in well established relationships.. This is reflected in their works. they are trying to put to paper their "Faith" so it may be defined..
The questions you ask, and how you go about seeking "truth" can be compared that of a non-believer. Or Someone not mature in faith.. You seem to seek answers for the purpose of being "right."

This isn't a personal attack but an observation, and when confronted with said observation you ignore it.. choosing instead to focus on what you want.. More debating and endless conjecture. Young brother you have your answer, but to be able to comprehend it, you will have to take another approach.

You also seem to resist the notion of communing with God. If this seems irrelevant in your endeavors, maybe you should look at what your doing, and redefine your intentions.. Taking a purely academic approach to any other form of study will work. taking that position here will destroy your faith and can damage those around you. or is that your point of interest?

You have obviously been given a great gift.. One you will be held accountable for. No matter how you look at that portion of scripture.

 

[CShephard53]

This isn't a personal attack but an observation, and when confronted with said observation you ignore it.. choosing instead to focus on what you want.. More debating and endless conjecture. Young brother you have your answer, but to be able to comprehend it, you will have to take another approach.

You also seem to resist the notion of communing with God. If this seems irrelevant in your endeavors, maybe you should look at what your doing, and redefine your intentions.. Taking a purely academic approach to any other form of study will work. taking that position here will destroy your faith and can damage those around you. or is that your point of interest?

You have obviously been given a great gift.. One you will be held accountable for. No matter how you look at that portion of scripture.

I have a suggestion for you. Rather than making these comments in a public forum, since they address a personal issue, try PM'ing them. It might get farther and make your audience more receptive.

 

[beamishboy]

You will not find God, or the answers you claim to seek in a academic study. If you truly seek answers, then you will have to seek them spiritually. If you allow yourself to read past the conjecture and satire of these "commentaries" you so enjoy debating, you would plainly see the point of scripture.. the essences of it, is written to the meek, humble, "the last."
God inspired academics are always found after basic faith and understanding have been established..

Most of the men you quote and the Ideas you mimic, are all based in well established relationships.. This is reflected in their works. they are trying to put to paper their "Faith" so it may be defined..
The questions you ask, and how you go about seeking "truth" can be compared that of a non-believer. Or Someone not mature in faith.. You seem to seek answers for the purpose of being "right."

This isn't a personal attack but an observation, and when confronted with said observation you ignore it.. choosing instead to focus on what you want.. More debating and endless conjecture. Young brother you have your answer, but to be able to comprehend it, you will have to take another approach.

You also seem to resist the notion of communing with God. If this seems irrelevant in your endeavors, maybe you should look at what your doing, and redefine your intentions.. Taking a purely academic approach to any other form of study will work. taking that position here will destroy your faith and can damage those around you. or is that your point of interest?

You have obviously been given a great gift.. One you will be held accountable for. No matter how you look at that portion of scripture.

Hi, thanks for your post.

No, I'm not obstinate although you think I am. I need to be clear what it is you are suggesting that I do. It's not very clear. Perhaps I'm just obtuse and need a step-by-step guidance.

Are you saying that I don't read academic works? Are you saying it's because I'm reading their thoughts at a different level of maturity? But that's why I'm posting this on the adults' forum. Most people here are adults with the right level of maturity and where I've erred, they can correct me.

I cannot stop reading because I'm genuinely interested in the Bible and what it really is. I'm genuinely interested in religion. I have tried reading "more Christian" books on the canon of the Bible but in these books I usually find carefully selected facts and a total exclusion of details that might stumble a Christian. A reading of the more scholastic works will show up these careful selections quite easily. That's why I don't like Josh McDowell. I don't want kid-gloves treatment. I want the truth. The Bible tells me that the truth shall set us free.

If your advice to me is to pray, I have done that many times. My Aunt's advice is that I stop reading all these books. Just read the Bible without the commentaries. But that's like putting the cart before the horse. I need to know the Bible (all 66 books without apocrypha) is entirely God's word. I need to know about the lost books, eg Colossians tells us to read the epistle to the Laodiceans but we know today that that epistle was never discovered. In the 4th century AD, many gnostics "doctored" such an epistle and called it by that name but scholars know these are heretical works. I once asked my aunt if we are going against God's orders if we don't read Laodiceans because Paul says to read it. My aunt has not even heard of it although she's read Colossians many times over.

I do want to know the truth but my aunt's method appears to be more hiding from the truth and just accepting what everyone has accepted all along. What if we've all been wrong? I know some of us think the Israelites were following God's command when they stoned the man who gathered firewood on the sabbath just because it's recorded in the OT as God's command. What if Jesus when he comes again asks us how we could think of God so blasphemously when he had already said that the Sabbath was made for men and not men for the Sabbath? What if he tells us that with sadness and disappointment? Can we say, that's because the church taught us that or our pastors told us that or it's in the Bible and we accept all 66 books to be God's word because, that's what everyone says!!!

Will he hold us accountable? Or can we hide behind the masses. But Jesus came to teach us NOT to conform to the world and NOT to just listen to the majority.

The truth shall set us free. I believe this.

 

[VictimofChanges]

Greetings again beamishboy,

I think what Drich is trying to say is that "faith" should not be based on rational thought and enquiry, but "emotional" (or "spiritual") grounds instead.

This conforms with a conclusion I have been reaching recently - the vast majority of religious people are not religious because they have carefully and scholastically trawled their faith using rational enquiry. They are believers for rather intranscient emotional reasons; the fact that it gives them comfort, moral guidance, empathy with the characters and stories of scripiture, and so on and so on.

"How can something that makes me feel so good not be true?", they would say, and encourage others to abandon a free-thinking approach in favour of this very basic of human instincts: fear of the unkown and susceptibility to emotion.

You will not find God, or the answers you claim to seek in a academic study. If you truly seek answers, then you will have to seek them spiritually.

To anyone approaching religion with a rational enquiring mind, the above quote is a complete and utter COP OUT. Moreover it is an unsurprising one, because why would believers want someone to intelligently look into a belief system which has NO convincing foundation in testable evidence or reason?

Drich does not want you to think for yourself it seems, but just read scripture and keep quiet. Luckily this is not the attitude that the 21st century West is governed by. Well I'm not, anyway.

 

[beamishboy]

Greetings again beamishboy,

I think what Drich is trying to say is that "faith" should not be based on rational thought and enquiry, but "emotional" (or "spiritual") grounds instead.

This conforms with a conclusion I have been reaching recently - the vast majority of religious people are not religious because they have carefully and scholastically trawled their faith using rational enquiry. They are believers for rather intranscient emotional reasons; the fact that it gives them comfort, moral guidance, empathy with the characters and stories of scripiture, and so on and so on.

"How can something that makes me feel so good not be true?", they would say, and encourage others to abandon a free-thinking approach in favour of this very basic of human instincts: fear of the unkown and susceptibility to emotion.



To anyone approaching religion with a rational enquiring mind, the above quote is a complete and utter COP OUT. Moreover it is an unsurprising one, because why would believers want someone to intelligently look into a belief system which has NO convincing foundation in testable evidence or reason?

Drich does not want you to think for yourself it seems, but just read scripture and keep quiet. Luckily this is not the attitude that the 21st century West is governed by. Well I'm not, anyway.

Hi VictimofChanges,

Nice to hear from you again. You've evidently not posted much in CF since I chatted with you when I newly joined CF last January. How have you been?

I'm trying to make sense of the Bible and to decide on a stand to take with respect to it.

I've been told by my Aunt (who became a fundamentalist after living for years in America and who now thinks my altar boy's surplice is the devil's garb and she thinks CoE is satanic) tells me to just read the Bible as God's word. I should blank my mind of all doubts, ask the Holy Spirit to help me to accept the Bible as God's inerrant word and read it as such.

I think that's really putting the cart before the horse. How can I ask God to convince me that the Bible is His word? I'd be irresponsible to do that. I need to know that it is first.

I've also been told (quite rightly) that I have no relationship with God. How does one have a relationship with God? I really would like to know that. I suppose reading the Bible is part of it. But shouldn't those who have a healthy relationship with God find out how the Bible is compiled before starting to read it in earnest? Again, I sense that there is a lot of putting the cart before the horse. I'm unable to do that.