If suicidals only knew

[Dave-W]

Suicidal thoughts and the Depression that proceeds them have nothing to do with sin, but psychological illness. Their brains are not working correctly.

That depends on how you define "sin."

 

[Dave-W]

i know when you feel like this you think everyone will be better off without you

I have felt that way my entire life, but have never been suicidal.

While I understand those feelings may be related; they are NOT the same thing.

 

[Dave-W]

I would make a distinction between "counsel", which is good and helpful, but only if it is wise and godly, and "therapy", which is in large part worthless.

The former has the power to prevent catastrophe and also help one correct course if he has drifted or worse, crashed his live upon the rocks, while the latter often takes an already self-centered person, and makes him twice so.

IMO this is an over-simplification. Some therapies work and some don't. Some types will work for some personalities and not others.

 

[ToBeLoved]

IMO this is an over-simplification. Some therapies work and some don't. Some types will work for some personalities and not others.

I would also add that no insurance will accept Christain counseling as it is seen as a division between church and state. So one has to be able to afford Godly counsel to pay for it on their own. Most people cannot afford that.

Also, just the word 'Christian' doesn't mean you will find anyone near your own beliefs. They could be anyone that considers themselves a Christian in any way. If you are paying for counseling out of pocket, that is a huge thing because you want counsel that is in accordance with your beliefs and values.

 

[Cute Tink]

I live in a society in which "therapy" is given to everyone, and that has been the case for decades. You can follow the trajectory of secular "therapy" and suicide rates. If the world's wisdom worked, why the increase in suicide, Paul?

Are people actually getting therapy though? You say it's given to everyone, but the article you shared doesn't support that. Quite the opposite, actually, as quoted by Zoii.

Your article also linked to a study from 2005 of cognitive therapy reducing further suicide attempts by 50%, further eroding your statement when you quoted the article.

Now you do clarify that "true counselors" can help, but you don't actually give any idea what a "true counselor" looks like or why therapy cannot be done by a "true counselor", since therapy "is in large part worthless".

As to the OP:

If the individual is considering suicide because they feel unimportant, unloved, etc., then finding a way to demonstrate to them that their feelings are not true may be very helpful. If they are considering it for other reasons, it may be completely ineffective. People need to be treated as individuals with individual problems, diagnosed and treated accordingly. Attempting a one-size-fits-all approach is never going to be completely effective.

 

[lismore]

Hello All. Many people we meet are perhaps suffering from depression/ suicidal thoughts. These people cannot be judged because we cannot comprehend what they have been through, only the Lord can see the heart. The mind can be wounded just as the body can. Many things can make a depressed person worse, even Christian teachings, especially those I would call the survival of the fittest type. One thing that helps though, love. God Bless

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

even Christian teachings,

I agree.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

As someone who has suffered from chronic depression since as young as six years old, and first started having "those" thoughts at age eight:

Someone early on in this thread spoke the truth, that people in a serious state of depression honestly believe others would be better off without them. Complicate matters with my physical disability. I cannot hold a job, and have been told twice by Vocational Rehabilitation that I am unemployable. I'm so disabled I can't even work through programs designed to find jobs for the disabled. So when I see my husband struggling to make ends meet, and I can't help him pay the bills, how useless do you think that makes me feel? It's worse when he comes home from work and then has to do a chore that was too much for me, and worst of all when some medical need of mine throws his carefully calculated budget out of whack. Are there times I think he'd be better off without this burden, and I wonder what in the world he sees in me? You bet there are. And when I am at my gloomiest, I can't even imagine that anyone would grieve for me. I actually picture them dancing and singing, "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead."

Depression is not just feeling sorry for yourself because you didn't get asked to the prom. In fact, that's kind of an insult. That's comparing acne to advanced skin cancer. True depression is a malfunction of the brain. When the brain isn't working properly, thoughts won't make sense except to the person who is thinking them. But they are honestly believed.

One illustration I use is the concept of visual hallucinations. For example, let's say I am hallucinating and I see a snake on the floor in front of me. No way will you ever be able to convince me that there is no snake. What do you mean, there is no snake? I see a snake plain as day, doggone it, and you can't tell me I don't see it. What are you trying to do, mess with me or something? If you don't see something that is obviously right in front of you, then you must be the one who's nuts. Only when the brain chemicals quit misfiring, by whatever means it takes to accomplish that, will I stop seeing the snake. Depressive thoughts work the same way. Even though they are not accurate, they are just as real to the person with depression as that snake is to the person who is hallucinating.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

how useless do you think that makes me feel?

I can identify with this a little but your pain is huge compared to mine.
My sincere best wishes. And God Bless too.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Addressed to Christians on this thread:
Don't we have an obligation to hang in there no matter what? [Easy for me to say, as I am not suffering nearly as much as some.]
Not follow the Judas Iscariot choice?
I must admit, in my darkest moments, I have thought this.(that I have a Christian obligation to stay alive) Its not just that I don't want to miss out on Heaven, it just feels like the ultimate in defeatism and letting God down.
For most of us there is light at the end of the tunnel in this life. So we just have to tolerate short-term depression.
But for non-Christians I imagine their obligation is mainly to loved ones only.

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

I've attempted suicide four times in my life and in my own mind, I'm just expediting my trip to Heaven after suffering years of abuse, mental illness and a lack of any hope in the world. I just wanted to end all of that regardless of what anyone else demanded of me. There was one point in my life where it was either commit suicide or bring a gun to school. I figured it would have been the lesser evil to kill myself and go more quietly.

Those who say suicide is selfish has obviously never been to that point of suffering. I think it's just plain cruel that someone has to threaten you with Hellfire to motivate you to keep on living in order to suffer some more.

Suicide is not a black and white issue.

I'm not sure if moderators like posts like yours but I welcome open discussion on this. I agree. it's not a black and white issue.

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Not everyone is some stoic war hero that Americans love to honor in the movies.

I'm certainly not.

those who look down on others for their perceived 'weaknesses' in suffering are like sports commentators who criticize a professional sportsman's shortcomings when they themselves would not even qualify for the junior leagues.

Even the ex players who commentate can annoy me.

Biblical figures such as Job and Elijah have wanted death due to their trials and God didn't criticize them

I need to read their stories again.

in this war called life.

Apt description for so many people.

 

[alsughasoughaiuyfygh]

.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

There are people who snap under pressure and commit suicide.

I don't handle pressure well at all.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Are you inspired by stories of people who are suffering more than you, but still manage to smile? I guess I am but it makes me feel guilty that I am feeling sorry for myself.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I am the father of a daughter who has attempted suicide at least 4 times. From her earliest years, she was noticeably different than her older two sisters. She just didn't process the world the same way her siblings did--nor as any other person I know does. (As those that are clinically depressed would likely say, I probably know a few more than I think I do--it's just that they've learn to mask the signs.) She's on meds and doing reasonably well, but I can't shake the feeling that I will outlive her.

I can only speak a little to the feelings of depression (as I will do below). But this I know from observing those few in my life: There is no sin here (even if I believed in the concept); there is no "just trust God and everything will be all right"; there is no thinking happy thoughts that will fix everything. To say such things is to betray a lack of understanding or perhaps Dunning-Kruger effects. You can't talk someone with BPD or clinical depression out of it. There is nothing to be talked out of--it's medical; it's a brain thing.

My own experience with depression was a result of a side effect of prescribed medication. I was away at a convention when it hit. Those god-awful depression commercials with bad metaphors suddenly made sense. It was, indeed, like an elephant sitting on my chest. I think perhaps a better metaphor is this: It's like getting punched in the stomach. Just once. But it is a single punch that never stops. You are always gasping for air that isn't there. If I were with people, the sensation would fade. But as soon as I was alone ...

Now, I knew (or strongly suspected) that the problem was medical and I immediately stopped the medication. But, the feeling didn't go away. When I got home I got an appointment with the Dr. I got some anti-depressants. After about 18 months and several med changes, I felt I could get off them. I was right, and I've been fine.

No counseling can help a problem like this. No amount of prayer or happy thoughts is going to help. Your brain is out of whack.

So one thing became clear to me: If my daughter feels this all the time (when off meds or meds are not adjusted correctly), I understand why she'd want to end it. It's not like physical pain. As her pain isn't induced by medication, she can't just stop and have everything come out ok as it did for me. Her punch in the gut will last until she dies with the only respites lasting until the current chemical solution no longer does the trick.

This is the next frontier of medicine.

To suggest that a depressed person just doesn't have the right attitude, the right faith, the right trust, etc., is be full of sh ... er ... coprolite.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

^
Thank you kindly for your input.
Posts like these make me guilty for ever suggesting suicide might be preventable.

 

[Tinker Grey]

^
Thank you kindly for your input.
Posts like these make me guilty for ever suggesting suicide might be preventable.

I didn't mean to imply guilt.

Counseling has helped my daughter develop coping mechanisms. In a way, that's a prevention. But a particular darkness may come upon her that she might not be able to cope with. It is something we will have to wait and see. She is reaching the end of her teens. Perhaps with the final brain development of her early 20s, she may be more stable than she has been. We can hope.

But so far as I know, we can only ameliorate the symptoms.