If someone denys that Jesus is God and the Trinity, can he still be saved?

[yogosans14]

I have heard yes and mainly no, im indifferent

 

[ViaCrucis]

I have heard yes and mainly no, im indifferent

Salvation isn't contingent on our getting our theological t's properly crossed and i's properly dotted. Salvation is contingent on the God who so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son. It is the work and righteousness of Christ, imputed to us by the grace of God, which freely and unconditionally justifies us, reconciling us to God, saving us.

It's not by works, not even works of the will or the mind. It is only by the all-sufficient work of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Getting our theology right doesn't improve our status before God; but it does mean that we preach truth rightly, that we proclaim the Gospel faithfully.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

How can you proclaim the gospel rightly if your theology is jacked up? This is how cults like the JWs get started. People with messed up theology going around leading other people into error.

 

[Serendipity..]

Maybe! It probably is no biggie. This is the crucial one.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If someone denys that Jesus is God and the Trinity, can he still be saved?
I have heard yes and mainly no, I'm indifferent

If by 'denies' you mean that such a person knows and understands the church's teaching on the trinity and freely chooses to repudiate it then it seems to me that they would be in formal heresy and that has grave implications for one's relationship with God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

How can you proclaim the gospel rightly if your theology is jacked up? This is how cults like the JWs get started. People with messed up theology going around leading other people into error.

Agreed. Which is why theology is so absolutely important.

But our theology isn't what sets us right with God, it's not what justifies us, restores us, and reconciles us to God. That is entirely the domain of grace alone, which is from God alone, through the work of Jesus alone, for us.

Being orthodox doesn't justify us. Jesus' death on Mt. Calvary and His resurrection from the grave is what justifies us. Which is why grace is so good, the Gospel so liberating, and why there is actual, real hope for any of us at all. Because if it was dependent on us getting all our theology right, we'd all be screwed. Not a single one of us has it right, we're all fallible, faltering human beings who are, without a doubt, certainly wrong about many, many things.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sunlover1]

Salvation isn't contingent on our getting our theological t's properly crossed and i's properly dotted. Salvation is contingent on the God who so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son. It is the work and righteousness of Christ, imputed to us by the grace of God, which freely and unconditionally justifies us, reconciling us to God, saving us.

It's not by works, not even works of the will or the mind. It is only by the all-sufficient work of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Getting our theology right doesn't improve our status before God; but it does mean that we preach truth rightly, that we proclaim the Gospel faithfully.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ST1TCH]

If you refuse to believe that Jesus was God incarnate, a perfect sacrifice for our sins, then how can you come to saving faith in Him if you reject who He was?

 

[Defensor Christi]

Agreed. Which is why theology is so absolutely important.

But our theology isn't what sets us right with God, it's not what justifies us, restores us, and reconciles us to God. That is entirely the domain of grace alone, which is from God alone, through the work of Jesus alone, for us.

Being orthodox doesn't justify us. Jesus' death on Mt. Calvary and His resurrection from the grave is what justifies us. Which is why grace is so good, the Gospel so liberating, and why there is actual, real hope for any of us at all. Because if it was dependent on us getting all our theology right, we'd all be screwed. Not a single one of us has it right, we're all fallible, faltering human beings who are, without a doubt, certainly wrong about many, many things.

-CryptoLutheran

How then to you reconcile this passage of scripture...

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[sunlover1]

If you refuse to believe that Jesus was God incarnate, a perfect sacrifice for our sins, then how can you come to saving faith in Him if you reject who He was?

You don't have to understand the relationship to have faith in God.
I went through a season where it made no sense to me that Jesus is
God, and I wasn't about to "just take my word for it" with the consequences
of "what if it's NOT true and I offend God calling Jesus "another" God"
God never "left me or forsook me" during my confusion.
And I never doubted that Jesus Christ as the Son of God,
was the perfect sacrifice for sin.

 

[ptomwebster]

If someone denys that Jesus is God and the Trinity, can he still be saved?

No!

 

[ViaCrucis]

How then to you reconcile this passage of scripture...

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matt 7:21-23)

Doesn't it seem like that passage is describing orthodox persons who were convinced they had the right faith, had done the right things (etc)?

I'm not sure there's anything to reconcile.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Defensor Christi]

Doesn't it seem like that passage is describing orthodox persons who were convinced they had the right faith, had done the right things (etc)?

I'm not sure there's anything to reconcile.

-CryptoLutheran

Then what were they missing to be shunned by the Lord?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then what were they missing to be shunned by the Lord?

At the end of our days, we will have to stand before Him and be judged, giving an account of all we have done.

Nothing in there says that the Lord will give us a theology exam. And if He does, is it going to be multiple choice, or, heaven forbid, essay questions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

I have heard yes and mainly no, im indifferent

Which Jesus do they believe in, the human or the deity?

 

[Defensor Christi]

At the end of our days, we will have to stand before Him and be judged, giving an account of all we have done.

Nothing in there says that the Lord will give us a theology exam. And if He does, is it going to be multiple choice, or, heaven forbid, essay questions.

-CryptoLutheran

It isnt about a theology exam...it's about the Lord knowing us, so how then can He know us if we deny the very basic understanding of who He is?

According to your reason, our actions play no part in our salvation...so then, how could these men/women that profess Him as Lord, who do deeds in His name be cast out by the Lord because He never knew them?

 

[LST 1154]

Jesus said in Matt 5:48 ""Therefore you shall be perfect [complete], just as your Father in heaven is perfect [complete]. The Greek word teleios translated "perfect" in this passage means:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to be complete
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
How can one be complete if they deny that Jesus Christ is God or deny the existance of the trinity?

John 5:23 "....He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." 1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 2 John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 1 John 4:15 "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

LST

 

[sunlover1]

Jesus said in Matt 5:48 ""Therefore you shall be perfect [complete], just as your Father in heaven is perfect [complete]. The Greek word teleios translated "perfect" in this passage means:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to be complete
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
a) consummate human integrity and virtue
b) of men
1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
How can one be complete if they deny that Jesus Christ is God or deny the existance of the trinity?

John 5:23 "....He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." 1 John 5:12 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 2 John 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 1 John 4:15 "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."

LST

This is a great post.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It isnt about a theology exam...it's about the Lord knowing us, so how then can He know us if we deny the very basic understanding of who He is?

According to your reason, our actions play no part in our salvation...so then, how could these men/women that profess Him as Lord, who do deeds in His name be cast out by the Lord because He never knew them?

They play no part in our being justified. But our works are part and parcel of a life of faith. While works do not and cannot justify, faith is never alone. To have faith is to work.

Our salvation is entirely the work of God, apart from ourselves.

The life of faith into which we have been delivered by grace is a life of good works.

Martin Luther himself (relevant since I'm speaking from a Lutheran POV) phrases it as thus:

"Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do."

God does not accept us on account of what we have done, but now that we are His, we ought to do what ought to be done. That is faith alive through action.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Defensor Christi]

They play no part in our being justified. But our works are part and parcel of a life of faith. While works do not and cannot justify, faith is never alone. To have faith is to work.

Our salvation is entirely the work of God, apart from ourselves.

The life of faith into which we have been delivered by grace is a life of good works.

Martin Luther himself (relevant since I'm speaking from a Lutheran POV) phrases it as thus:

"Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are.Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do."

God does not accept us on account of what we have done, but now that we are His, we ought to do what ought to be done. That is faith alive through action.

-CryptoLutheran

I have no wish to debate faith v. works in this thread...all I want to know is why those men were shunned by the Lord?

Clearly, they believed He was God...they called Him Lord...they worked miracles in His name...they displayed the faith the He would save them...

What were they missing?