If sabbath was a creation ordinance...........

[Cribstyl]

I just wanted to clarify my perception of John 7:22.
Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.

Our translations indicate that this includes a parenthetical insertion by John when he wrote his account. The origin of circumcision is with God's covenant with Abraham, and John acknowledges this. If we remove his insertion from John 7:22, the verse is rendered this way:
Moses therefore gave you circumcision, and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.

What Jesus said is true - the audience he addresses got the rite of circumcision from Moses, and Moses got it by direct verbal commandment according to Leviticus 12:1-3. This sets a precedent that ends dependence on a previous covenant when the same commandment is Spoken into a newer covenant.

However, this doesn't deter from your point. The rite of circumcision originates 430 years before the sabbath existed, and Jesus doesn't make any distinction between these two rites originating with Moses to the audience present. That too is true, as the sabbath has its origin through Moses about a month before God declared His covenant to the entire congregation at Horeb.

Thank you my friend
These scriptures from John could also imply when Moses first gave the COI circumcision. (Exodus chapter 12) Notice that sabbaths are not mentioned as yet.

Exd 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

This was before they left Egypt. It's significant to note that God would required circumcision and Passover The Chidren of Israel and also from the strangers who would sojoun with the Children of Israel, and no mention of the sabbath. Sabbath was added for the Children of Isreal and strangers to keep only after it was given at Sinai.

Moses knew that God had placed significant importance on His covenant with Abraham because of having circumcision being the sign of that covenant. Moses also knew when God first required them to keep the sabbath on the seventh day because it was given through him.
What's also a personal issue for Moses was when God almost killed Moses son because his son was not circumcised. Exd 4:25
So Jesus is explaining why circumcision was carried out on the 8th day of a male child's birth falls on the Sabbath. It was passed down from Abraham as life and death. We can see that if Sabbath was a life or death law from creation, God would have given it to Moses along with circumcision and Passover........especially since non Hebrews worshipped other Gods.

 

[VictorC]

These scriptures from John could also imply when Moses first gave the COI circumcision. (Exodus chapter 12) Notice that sabbaths are not mentioned as yet.

Exd 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

This was before they left Egypt. It's significant to note that God would required circumcision and Passover The Chidren of Israel and also from the strangers who would sojoun with the Children of Israel, and no mention of the sabbath. Sabbath was added for the Children of Isreal and strangers to keep only after it was given at Sinai.

Good point, showing circumcision given through Moses before the sabbath existed. I selected Leviticus 12:1-3 because this is where newborn boys were circumcised on their 8th day, which is the most sensible reason a male would be circumcised on the sabbath to avoid violating the Law.

 

[BobRyan]

Why did Jesus say tell the Pharisees; the reason you circumcise on the Sabbath is because circumcision was passed down from the fathers?

Jhn 7:22
Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

Jhn 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?


It seems clear to understand that Sabbath was not passed down from the fathers

Jesus did not say "The Sabbath did not exist until Moses" so some "make it up'.

Jesus DID say "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaking of the "making" of BOTH as we find it both in Genesis 1-2:3 AND as it find it in Ex 20:11.

No wonder then God said that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Not liking any of this - there are some who will avoid the explicit texts on the subject and simply eisegete things as if a comment on the ceremonial law - is really a way of saying "The Sabbath did not exist before Moses" -- a statement that we do not find in all of scripture - but still easy enough to "make up" as we all know.

Why rest an entire argument on such eisegesis?

Who buys it??

Even our well known Sunday-Sources do not do such things.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

Jesus did not say "The Sabbath did not exist until Moses" so some "make it up'.

This is true - as it was Nehemiah and Moses who stated that the sabbath didn't exist until Moses. Jesus doesn't contradict their testimony, and you have seen what they had to say.

Jesus DID say "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaking of the "making" of BOTH as we find it both in Genesis 1-2:3 AND as it find it in Ex 20:11.

Now if the sabbath was "made for man" as Jesus clearly stated according to Mark 2:27, it follows that the sabbath wasn't made for God. The sabbath wasn't God's rest. Exodus 20:11 proves a disparate origin for God's rest and the sabbath when it drew on the former as the impetus to ordain the latter: by necessity, the reason must predate the result. This verse further proves that the sabbath didn't exist prior to Moses, and the sentence structure that Deuteronomy 5:15 uses is identical - drawing on a historical event as the reason to ordain the sabbath.

No wonder then God said that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Marking the continual passage of time, just as the new moon does in the same passage.

Not liking any of this - there are some who will avoid the explicit texts on the subject and simply eisegete things as if a comment on the ceremonial law - is really a way of saying "The Sabbath did not exist before Moses" -- a statement that we do not find in all of scripture - but still easy enough to "make up" as we all know.

Why rest an entire argument on such eisegesis?

Who buys it??

Even our well known Sunday-Sources do not do such things.

in Christ,

Bob

You've seen the testimony of the Law itself, and show that you have to disparage uninspired sources you rely on to form an argument that is essentially a straw man.

 

[Cribstyl]

Jesus did not say "The Sabbath did not exist until Moses" so some "make it up'.

Jesus DID say "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaking of the "making" of BOTH as we find it both in Genesis 1-2:3 AND as it find it in Ex 20:11.

No wonder then God said that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Not liking any of this - there are some who will avoid the explicit texts on the subject and simply eisegete things as if a comment on the ceremonial law - is really a way of saying "The Sabbath did not exist before Moses" -- a statement that we do not find in all of scripture - but still easy enough to "make up" as we all know.

Why rest an entire argument on such eisegesis?

Who buys it??

Even our well known Sunday-Sources do not do such things.

in Christ,

Bob

OH,NO...I'm not going to continue addressing your texts and arguments while you sidestep my texts and arguments.
Please, Sabbath at creation is not written anywhere in the scriptures. The scriptures and sources that you post does show that you're trying to be deceptive.

 

[from scratch]

Jesus was showing them how they have lowered the value of human beings with their religious behavior. The seventh day of creation was created a blessed and holy day but it shouldn't take precedence over human needs. Taking the day off on the seventh day is not what makes the seventh day special, we take the day off in order to make the day special. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

That the English version. Its not a good translation conveying the true meaning of what Jesus said. It is also taken out of context and contrary to what Moses said. Its also contrary to the Prophet Ezekiel. So some one isn't telling the truth. Who is it? The choices are Moses, Ezekiel and Jesus.

Moses said -

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

Christians aren't Israel and we aren't obligated to that covenant.

Moses said -

5 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Then Moses presents the Ten Commandments.

Ezekiel said -

Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.

Ezekiel said them and not us. Them is Israel.

There is loads more to support this view. I'm trying to keep in line with the OP's request.

 

[from scratch]

The covenants are a result of sin.

Indirectly yes. The current covenant doesn't include the 4th commandment as a requirement. So you're out of luck here.

 

[from scratch]

Healing is.

Healing has nothing to do with circumcision or the Sabbath. You're doing nothing more than derailing a thread.

 

[from scratch]

If you don't know or understand these thing you shouldn't be here trying to refute them. Salvation is a result of sin.

You're good at derailing. Why can't you stay on topic? Personally I think (really know) you can't defend your position with the Bible.

 

[from scratch]

I have never seen anyone describe Almighty God as the posterity of sin. Never.

There's a first for everything. I'm sure I haven't heard everything, yet.

 

[from scratch]

Jesus did not say "The Sabbath did not exist until Moses" so some "make it up'.

Jesus DID say "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27 speaking of the "making" of BOTH as we find it both in Genesis 1-2:3 AND as it find it in Ex 20:11.

No wonder then God said that "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66:23.

Not liking any of this - there are some who will avoid the explicit texts on the subject and simply eisegete things as if a comment on the ceremonial law - is really a way of saying "The Sabbath did not exist before Moses" -- a statement that we do not find in all of scripture - but still easy enough to "make up" as we all know.

Why rest an entire argument on such eisegesis?

Who buys it??

Even our well known Sunday-Sources do not do such things.

in Christ,

Bob

Where do you find the Sabbath even mentioned prior to the exit of Egypt?

 

[Cribstyl]

We have no question about the origin of circumcision because the bible tells us when and to whom God gave it and why.
We have no question about the origin of Passover because the bible tells us when and to whom God gave it and why.
We have no question about the origin of the Sabbath because the bible tells us when and to whom God gave it and why.
There are countless arguments about the sabbath because false teachers have added to the word of God.
If sabbath was from creation, why would God make it a sign and a covenant with the Children of Israel?
Why do we read that circumcision and passover were required of strangers before the Sabbath was said to be required of the stranger? This evendence adds to God's own testimony about when the sabbath was first given to only the children of Israel.

Where is it written that Sabbath is for everyone to keep?

Does the bible say by God resting on the seventh day, this makes the Sabbath for man?


Watch out for false prophets....

 

[SAAN]

Where do you find the Sabbath even mentioned prior to the exit of Egypt?

I have asked that same question here, and 3 other forums for the last 3 years and still have yet to get an answer as well.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I have asked that same question here, and 3 other forums for the last 3 years and still have yet to get an answer as well.

Their only fallback is to insist the word "commands" or "commandments" in the bible equate the 10 commandments and use that idea to insist people prior to Moses were keeping the Sabbath. Their thinking is based upon word connection without proper exegis of scripture if the Bible says "obey" it must mean obedience to the 10 commandments. You cannot argue with this because they won't admit they could be wrong in their thinking this way they are conditioned to not allow themselves to think otherwise.

 

[from scratch]

I have asked that same question here, and 3 other forums for the last 3 years and still have yet to get an answer as well.

It might be safe to say that it won't ever be answered. I believe the reason is because the can't and don't possess enough grace and humility to say they're wrong. That would admit to the truth they're wrong and be defeat. Pride won't allow them to do so.

 

[BobRyan]

Where do you find the Sabbath even mentioned prior to the exit of Egypt?

God says it is in Gen 2:3.

When God summarizes Gen 1-2:3 in Ex 20:11 He specifically says it is in Gen 2:3.

We need to believe "God" -- as it turns out.

And Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind".

So obvious - even many Sunday Sources get this Bible point - of the Sabbath starting in Eden.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[from scratch]

I have asked that same question here, and 3 other forums for the last 3 years and still have yet to get an answer as well.

And you won't because there isn't any substance to their argument. Its the reason they often run and hide hoping we'll forget.

 

[from scratch]

God says it is in Gen 2:3.

When God summarizes Gen 1-2:3 in Ex 20:11 He specifically says it is in Gen 2:3.

We need to believe "God" -- as it turns out.

And Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind".

So obvious - even many Sunday Sources get this Bible point - of the Sabbath starting in Eden.

in Christ,

Bob

Please provide a quote. I don't mind if you use the original language. I can look it up and compare from a few independent sources.

I also regret to have to inform you your abuse of MK 2:27 doesn't hold any water either. I've already provided the argument for that here in this forum. I can repeat just for you if you like.

In the mean time we can start with post 26.

 

[BobRyan]

God says it is in Gen 2:3.

When God summarizes Gen 1-2:3 in Ex 20:11 He specifically says it is in Gen 2:3.

We need to believe "God" -- as it turns out.

And Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind".

So obvious - even many Sunday Sources get this Bible point - of the Sabbath starting in Eden.

Please provide a quote. I don't mind if you use the original language. .

Oh Good -- Bible quotes instead of tired old "man made tradition" about the Commandments of God supposedly being dead.

Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27 speaking both of the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Creation week "the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind"

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11 "11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed THE Sabbath day and made it holy." That is what God said He did in Gen 2:3.

Gen 2:1-3

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

"And Sanctified it" -- "And made it Holy" -- the same word.

How sad then for those who would be at war with God's TEN Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[VictorC]

Where do you find the Sabbath even mentioned prior to the exit of Egypt?

I have asked that same question here, and 3 other forums for the last 3 years and still have yet to get an answer as well.

The sabbath isn't mentioned prior to the exodus from Egyptian bondage, for the reason that the exodus is the impetus to ordain the sabbath, as Deuteronomy 5:15 shows. The impetus always precedes the result. You can wait 3 years or 300 years, and no one is going to change this fact of the Law's testimony regarding itself.