If not Mary then who?

[MamaZ]

no that's not what that part of scripture means.

IT does not mean above other women either. Jesus puts it all in prospective with His statment here
Mar 3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You."
Mar 3:33 But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Mar 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

 

[Anglian]

Dear MamaZ,

I don't think Scripture contradicts itself. The angel says what the angel says, that is that St, Mary is blessed among women; Christ's words as quoted by you don't contradict this statement.

Why do you have such trouble with paying honour to the Mother of God?

peace,

Anglian

 

[Christos Anesti]

Anglian,

I was looking for that book "The Dove" that you quoted from so I could buy it but then I found you can download the whole book in PDF format here ! Can't wait to read it.

 

[Anglian]

Anglian,

I was looking for that book "The Dove" that you quoted from so I could buy it but then I found you can download the whole book in PDF format here ! Can't wait to read it.

So glad you have found it - it is a wonderful book, and I can't understand why it is not in print at a price one could afford. I have a copy in Syriac - which helps my knowledge of that language, but even that cost a small fortune. I'd encourage anyone interested to download it.

peace,

Anglian

 

[PaladinValer]

IT does not mean above other women either. Jesus puts it all in prospective with His statment here
Mar 3:32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You."
Mar 3:33 But He answered them, saying, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?"
Mar 3:34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers!
Mar 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother."

What a terrible misinterpretation.

This passage is about how all who believe are adoptive sons of God, not about the equality of blessedness.

 

[MamaZ]

What a terrible misinterpretation.

This passage is about how all who believe are adoptive sons of God, not about the equality of blessedness.

Read the account.. They came to Jesus and told Him that His mother and brothers were asking for Him.. He answered them and said who is my mother and brothers.. Therefore setting the presidence that no one is above the other, even His earthly mother and brothers..

 

[Anglian]

Read the account.. They came to Jesus and told Him that His mother and brothers were asking for Him.. He answered them and said who is my mother and brothers.. Therefore setting the presidence that no one is above the other, even His earthly mother and brothers..

Are you suggesting that the Lord broke the commandment about showing respect to one's parent? Are you suggesting He contradicated the Angel? The Bible does not contradict itself, neither did the Lord Christ sin. PaladinValer represents what the historic Churches have taught. Your representation of it leaves open a contradiction in Holy Scripture - which we both know cannot be.

peace,

Anglian

 

[MamaZ]

Are you suggesting that the Lord broke the commandment about showing respect to one's parent? Are you suggesting He contradicated the Angel? The Bible does not contradict itself, neither did the Lord Christ sin. PaladinValer represents what the historic Churches have taught. Your representation of it leaves open a contradiction in Holy Scripture - which we both know cannot be.

peace,

Anglian

How would be have broken the commandment? He answered them and asked who is my mother and brothers? How is that breaking a commandment.. Just as when He was at the temple we see that they had to go back and look for Him and when asked He plainly stated He was doing His fathers work.. So explain to me how He would break any commandment? It leaves no contradiction to scripture. When the scripture is read in the full context we see that Jesus was about His Fathers business.. Not exhalting one human over the other.. He even humbled Himself to the point of death on the cross..

 

[Anglian]

I'm unclear. Are you suggesting that Our Lord's words contradict those of the angel? We call St. Mary 'blessed'; what do you do?

peace,

Anglian

 

[PaladinValer]

Read the account.

No, you read it.

They came to Jesus and told Him that His mother and brothers were asking for Him.. He answered them and said who is my mother and brothers.. Therefore setting the presidence that no one is above the other, even His earthly mother and brothers..

No, that is not a logical conclusion.

Look at what St. Paul says about being sons of God. His theology about it is based on this passage. It has nothing to do with who is blessed but who is a member of God's adoptive family.

And don't tell me that people all live equally blessed lives. That is the conclusion that results in your personal heterodox and false interpretation. After all, you seem to think it, for if we are all brothers and St. Mary the Theotokos is blessed, your conclusion then would have to be that all are equally blessed.

History shows that some people live far more blessed lives than others. Therefore, your argument is completely null and void.

Equality as adoptive sons of God doesn't equal equality in a state of blessedness. Some people live more blessed lives than others; its a fact based upon one's purity of religion. St. Mary the Theotokos is the exemplar of how to live a Godly life. No only-human human person who has ever existed can equal her because only she was chosen. She lived her life with such a cooperative Grace, with such genuine compassion and selflessness following the spirit of the Law that God chose her. He wouldn't pick just anyone: He didn't pick St. Elizabeth or St. Mary of Maghdala. He chose St. Mary the Betrothed of St. Joseph because of who she was. It was the same reason why He chose Abraham.

St. Mary the Theotokos absolutely must be the most blessed woman. It is the only Scriptural view. It is the only orthodox Christian view. To say otherwise is to reduce the Incarnation's power.

 

[Dorothea]

I agree, obviously with PaladinValer and Anglian and the others. Also, where has any other woman in the Bible been called "Blessed among women?"

 

[Anglian]

As 8 December is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, I thought I'd share this prayer of St. Cyril of Alexandria's for those who'd like it:

"We salute you, O Mary, Mother of God, treasure of the universe, inextinguishable flame, crown of virginity, scepter of the true Faith, indestructible temple, tabernacle of the One Whom the world cannot contain, and Mother and Virgin. In your virginal womb you enclosed the Immense and Incomprehensible One.

Through you the Trinity is glorified and the Cross is celebrated and adored everywhere on earth. Through you the heavens exult with joy, the Angels and Archangels are glad, demons are put to flight, the demon temptor is cast out of heaven, and our fallen nature has again been assumed into heaven.

It is through you that the only-begotten Son of God, Who is light, shone amid the nations who were seated in darkness and the shadow of death. What human voice can ever worthily celebrate the ineffable greatness of Mary? She is Mother and Virgin at the same time. Through her peace has been restored to the world. What peace? Our Lord Jesus Christ, whom Mary has brought forth!"

peace,

Anglian​

 

[MrPolo]

I agree, obviously with PaladinValer and Anglian and the others. Also, where has any other woman in the Bible been called "Blessed among women?"

Someone who doesn't understand typology is going to misinterpret what I'm about to write, but.... Jael and Judith are typologically told "blessed are you among women": Jael (Jg 5:24) and Judith (Judith 13:18).

These women are precursors to Mary, of course, since we know from Tradition and Scripture (Hg 2:9, 2 Cor 3:11) that the types of the Old Covenant are inferior to the New. Thus Mary is the New Covenant, final fulfillment of blessed women. When Mary was called blessed among women, it included these other women who once were called that!

 

[Dorothea]

Someone who doesn't understand typology is going to misinterpret what I'm about to write, but.... Jael and Judith are typologically told "blessed are you among women": Jael (Jg 5:24) and Judith (Judith 13:18).

These women are precursors to Mary, of course, since we know from Tradition and Scripture (Hg 2:9, 2 Cor 3:11) that the types of the Old Covenant are inferior to the New. Thus Mary is the New Covenant, final fulfillment of blessed women. When Mary was called blessed among women, it included these other women who once were called that!

Got it. Thanks.

 

[MamaZ]

In the scripture I gave did you see Jesus dropping everything and running to His mother?

 

[MamaZ]

I'm unclear. Are you suggesting that Our Lord's words contradict those of the angel? We call St. Mary 'blessed'; what do you do?

peace,

Anglian

how would it be contradicting? Did not the Angel tell Mary she was blessed among women? Does not Jesus state that every blessed is everyone who hears and obeys? Did not Mary hear and obey? Do not His own people hear and obey?

 

[MamaZ]

No, you read it

.


I have read it..

No, that is not a logical conclusion.

According to whos logic?

Look at what St. Paul says about being sons of God. His theology about it is based on this passage. It has nothing to do with who is blessed but who is a member of God's adoptive family

.Tie it all in for me on how you logically think this.

And don't tell me that people all live equally blessed lives. That is the conclusion that results in your personal heterodox and false interpretation. After all, you seem to think it, for if we are all brothers and St. Mary the Theotokos is blessed, your conclusion then would have to be that all are equally blessed.

All who hear and do are equally blessed. For God is not a respector of persons..

History shows that some people live far more blessed lives than others. Therefore, your argument is completely null and void.

I guess it depends on what you believe blessed means. For all those whom are in Christ Jesus are equally as blessed and any other. For all are saved the same way and that is by Grace through Faith. Was Mary saved any other way?

Equality as adoptive sons of God doesn't equal equality in a state of blessedness. Some people live more blessed lives than others; its a fact based upon one's purity of religion. St. Mary the Theotokos is the exemplar of how to live a Godly life. No only-human human person who has ever existed can equal her because only she was chosen. She lived her life with such a cooperative Grace, with such genuine compassion and selflessness following the spirit of the Law that God chose her

All who are in Christ are Chosen by God. Jesus is the exemplar of how to live a Christ life and it is Him in us that is the very hope of Glory.. There are so many women out there that lead exemplar lives and give a wonderul testimony of Christ..


.

He wouldn't pick just anyone: He didn't pick St. Elizabeth or St. Mary of Maghdala. He chose St. Mary the Betrothed of St. Joseph because of who she was. It was the same reason why He chose Abraham.

He does pick those to whom He chooses including the worst of sinners.. For Gods choosing is not based on what a man does but on Gods Mercy upon who He will have mercy upon.

St. Mary the Theotokos absolutely must be the most blessed woman. It is the only Scriptural view. It is the only orthodox Christian view. To say otherwise is to reduce the Incarnation's power

.

The power of the incarnation is not of Mary but of God.. For it was God who sent His son to die for the sins of the World.. Mary was a handsevent just as any woman is who know and lives in Christ.

 

[PaladinValer]

In the scripture I gave did you see Jesus dropping everything and running to His mother?

Again, equality as adoptive sons of God doesn't equate to equality of blessedness.

That is what you don't understand.

In addition, please try not to reply within someone's quotes. Close the section you wish to reply with "[/ quote]" (obviously ignore the space) and then begin the person's dialogue again in quotation with "{quote}" (obviously use brackets instead). It makes it a lot easier for the other person but makes it easier for you as well.

I have read it..

You may have read it the way you wanted to but you failed to interpret it correctly. Remember: all reading is interpretation. That's part of the nature of written language.

According to whos logic?

The rules of logic, be they informal logic (dealing with natural language arguments, which includes the study of logical fallacies), formal logic (dealing with inferences), symbolic logic (which deals with abstractions of formal logic), and mathematical logic (a further extension of symbolic logic into other areas, like proof theory).

Your argument is not logical. Therefore, it is false.

Tie it all in for me on how you logically think this.

Read what St. Paul says yourself. Where is the major place you see Jesus equivocating people as equal brethren? The passage you quoted. Obviously the good saint is referring to this particular passage. It makes perfect sense.

I guess it depends on what you believe blessed means. For all those whom are in Christ Jesus are equally as blessed and any other.

This is not a Christian view. Christianity teaches than some will not be blessed, for they will not experience heaven but hell. Furthermore, it is clear from both Scripture and Tradition that the level of blessedness is relative to the works we perform: many will experience heaven, but some will experience it more than others

For all are saved the same way and that is by Grace through Faith. Was Mary saved any other way?

Faith is more than belief alone. St. James's catholic letter is proof of that alone. In the end however, it is by grace alone period, no matter how much living faith we do/believe. Living faith, not dead faith. Faith isn't just belief or just works; it is both.

St. Mary was saved by Grace.

All who are in Christ are Chosen by God. Jesus is the exemplar of how to live a Christ life and it is Him in us that is the very hope of Glory.

Read again what you are replying to here. There was no need for this reply if you properly read what I'm saying.

There are so many women out there that lead exemplar lives and give a wonderul testimony of Christ.

And St. Mary the Theotokos is better than all the rest. Better even that my patron, St. Joseph the Betrothed.

He does pick those to whom He chooses including the worst of sinners.. For Gods choosing is not based on what a man does but on Gods Mercy upon who He will have mercy upon.

Except that your conception of faith isn't orthodox. Faith can either be alive or not. This is something Evangelical Protestantism doesn't understand very well, although classical Protestants, particularly Lutherans and Methodists, do grasp rather well. Living faith is done, not just believed.

That is why faith, living faith mind you, is like a coin: one side has belief and the other is works. If you only have one side, your coin is a worthless forgery.

The power of the incarnation is not of Mary but of God.. For it was God who sent His son to die for the sins of the World.. Mary was a handsevent just as any woman is who know and lives in Christ.

Except that St. Mary the Theotokos was chosen because of her living faith, which beyond all others was best. You forget that God is present in all time-space at once. He knew who would be the best selection. He picked St. Mary the Theotokos to be His Mother of Him Incarnate.

It reduces the value of the Incarnation if He didn't pick the best.

...and now that I explain the above, I've noticed a new and worse consequence: you've just turned God into an imperfect demiurge. Not at all appealing, as it is Gnostic, not Christian!

 

[boswd]

how would it be contradicting? Did not the Angel tell Mary she was blessed among women? Does not Jesus state that every blessed is everyone who hears and obeys? Did not Mary hear and obey? Do not His own people hear and obey?

Doesn't scripture also say "and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus"?
by your logic then we are equally Blessed as Jesus.

 

[GailMc]

Hello MamaZ.

You state this:

Read the account.. They came to Jesus and told Him that His mother and brothers were asking for Him.. He answered them and said who is my mother and brothers.. Therefore setting the presidence that no one is above the other, even His earthly mother and brothers..

I am very familiar with the passage. In it God speaks, but not to confirm that there actually is any of the persons mentioned by someone other than the Lord outside the room where He is with His disciples. Please note well: the person claiming that Mary and her other children are outside the room is NOT GOD!

This event is actually mentioned 3 times in the Gospels, Matthew, Mark and Luke. You'd think between the three Apostles giving this account, at least one of them would've confirmed the facts about Mary having other children IF there were any. So what is the point? It's about obedience and what it means to be a disciple of the Lord. If His Mother was truely outside that room, I'm very sure He would've asked them to send her in! Jesus isn't about disrepecting His mother as some suppose. He never had any brothers because Mary only gave birth to ONE, the Lord, Jesus Christ!


Peace and all good,

Gail