If men are justified by faith alone (Sola Fide)...?

[DRobert]

(accidental post)

 

[DRobert]

Luther was countering the then RCC belief that a person is justified by faith and good works (ie: observing the Law of Moses, which Paul said was taught to the Galatians by false apostles).

Hi Oscarr,
Do you still beat your wife? I didn't think so---you never did, right? Neither did the Catholic Church ever teach that we earn our salvation. I recommend you give this a read:

Why does the Church teach that works can obtain salvation? | Catholic Answers

The Catholic Church does not follow the law of Moses and never did.

 

[Albion]

Hi Oscarr,
Do you still beat your wife? I didn't think so---you never did, right? Neither did the Catholic Church ever teach that we earn our salvation. I recommend you give this a read:

Why does the Church teach that works can obtain salvation? | Catholic Answers

Hmm. But I read Oscarr to say that the Catholic view was/is that a person is justified by faith AND WORKS. That's seems eminently correct to say, if not the rest about the law of Moses, etc.

 

[DRobert]

I just did, Butch. There is no connection between those two sentences.


All I can think when I read anyone say that is that either 1) he hasn't read ALL of the Epistle, or else 2) he's just repeating something another person said.


'Necessary' for...what? It's whether or not the works contribute to one's chances of salvation. IOW, they're necessary but not efficacious. Any real faith will produce works. Hence, Faith Alone saves.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' willenter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

The parable of the Goats and Sheep make it very clear. "Faith alone" is unbiblical and was introduced by Luther. That's why he wanted to take out James from the Bible.

 

[DRobert]

Hmm. But I read Oscarr to say that the Catholic view was/is that a person is justified by faith AND WORKS. That's seems eminently correct to say, if not the rest about the law of Moses, etc.

Oscarr's understanding about the Catholic Church is fallible.

 

[Albion]

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' willenter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

The parable of the Goats and Sheep make it very clear. "Faith alone" is unbiblical and was introduced by Luther. That's why he wanted to take out James from the Bible.

Let's leave Luther and the "Luther wanted to" stuff out of our discussion since it doesn't bear upon the facts one way or the other.

In the passage you cite here, Jesus is saying that only those who do the will of his Father will enter the kingdom. However, doing the will is not said to be what gets you into the kingdom, only that if you do NOT do the will (however defined) of the Father, you'll be out. To me, that's essentially the same warning as was delivered by James.

 

[Albion]

Oscarr's understanding about the Catholic Church is fallible.

Everyone's understanding about the Catholic Church is fallible. That's the nature of humankind--fallibility. On that one point, though, he seems to have been correct.

 

[DRobert]

Sola Fide is not able to affirm which books belong in the Canon Of Sacred Scripture, which ironically, protestants use to prop up the doctrine of Sola Fide.

Why would you put your trust in a man who gutted the Bible and wanted to also gut the New Testament as well?

 

[DRobert]

Everyone's understanding about the Catholic Church is fallible. That's the nature of humankind--fallibility. On that one point, though, he seems to have been correct.

We are fallible; Christ's Church is infallible. The Gates Of Hell will never prevail against it and it is the pillar of spirit and truth. It is guarded by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I can think of a few reasons those who want to believe what they believe (and that's putting it mildly) would accuse others of trying to earn salvation (happens all the time) when we claim there are things required, things we must do other than just saying we have faith.

I see it this way... we are given a physical house, free of charge, one we could never earn, it's a free gift. But in order to retain the free gift, there are things we must do, pay the taxes, do the maintenance and so forth. Things that require money, labor or whatever...doing something. Still, that doesn't negate the fact it was a free gift, and what we are doing to retain it, is not earning the house.

If that doesn't cut it for some reason, maybe someone could revise it to make it a more fitting analogy.

 

[rrobsr]

There is a principle in bible research that says; if there are many clear verses on a subject, and one or two verses that seem to contradict the clear verses, then the one or two verses need to be examined to fit with the many clear verses. Either they are misunderstood, or the translation was bad.

The only other way to solve this kind of problem is to think the bible contradicts itself, in which case you might as well toss it into the trash.

I prefer the former.

 

[DRobert]

Let's leave Luther and the "Luther wanted to" stuff out of our discussion since it doesn't bear upon the facts one way or the other.

In the passage you cite here, Jesus is saying that only those who do the will of his Father will enter the kingdom. However, doing the will is not said to be what gets you into the kingdom, only that if you do NOT do the will (however defined) of the Father, you'll be out. To me, that's essentially the same warning as was delivered by James.

It's relevant; Sola Fide is unbiblical---it's a protestant tradition invented by Luther. That's the claim. Evidence for this is that Sola Fide was not a christian belief before the time of Luther. Sola Fide also gutted the Deposit Of Faith---Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture---into half. By throwing Sacred Tradition, Luther became
his own pope, deciding by his own authority what canonized books belong in the Bible and which don't. He inserted the word "alone" into his german translation of the Bible for "saved by faith" and upsurped the Pillar Of Spirit And Truth with himself and his interpretation of "sola fide" as the pillar of truth that the Reformation stands or falls on. You can cite from Sacred Scripture to support your belief, but you know who else did that? The heretics which the Catholic Church guarded against to preserve the Bible and christian beliefs that you currently hold to this day.

1. Jesus said we must do the will of the Father.
2. Faith alone did not save the goats; Jesus said he never knew them.
3. James says faith without works is dead.

It's clear---very clear---Luther twisted Sacred Scripture to his own destruction by introducing a tradition called Sola Fide. It led to the splintering of christiandom, where 40,000+ denominations exist today that can't agree with their interpretations about how to be saved. Sola Fide has even led to the christian faith being reduced to a Sinner's Prayer where all you need to do is ask Jesus into your heart to be saved.

Understanding Church History and Luther's involvement with Sola Fide and the consequence the doctrine has had is very important in his discussion.

 

[TheSeabass]

I can think of a few reasons those who want to believe what they believe (and that's putting it mildly) would accuse others of trying to earn salvation (happens all the time) when we claim there are things required, things we must do other than just saying we have faith.

I see it this way... we are given a physical house, free of charge, one we could never earn, it's a free gift. But in order to retain the free gift, there are things we must do, pay the taxes, do the maintenance and so forth. Things that require money, labor or whatever...doing something. Still, that doesn't negate the fact it was a free gift, and what we are doing to retain it, is not earning the house.

If that doesn't cut it for some reason, maybe someone could revise it to make it a more fitting analogy.

It's been my experience that those who think faith only save dismiss the simple truth that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions does NOT earn the free gift. THey seem to think that if you do ANY work then you are trying to earn the free gift.

It was a free gift of grace God rained down manna to Israel in the wilderness so they would have food to eat, yet God still required them to do the work of gathering the manna. Not meeting this condition of gather would leave them to starve. Yet doing this work of gathering was meeting a condition on God's free gift, not earning it.

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus said to work for the meat that endure unto everlasting life which He gives. He GIVES everlasting life so it is free, so why LABOUR? For everlasting life is a free gift that comes with conditi

 

[Albion]

It's relevant; Sola Fide is unbiblical---it's a protestant tradition invented by Luther. That's the claim.

Yes, that's the claim but it's false. Justification by Faith is Biblical.

Evidence for this is that Sola Fide was not a christian belief before the time of Luther.

That appears not to be entirely correct, if we consider the Church Fathers. But BTW, transubstantiation and Purgatory were never part of the faith until well into the Middle Ages and I never see Christians who believe in either of them making this argument. I guess it only matters when they go after reformed Christians.

 

[Thursday]

No. But I don't know anyone who says that it will, so I don't see any reason for people to go on and on about the point. It's really a strawman issue.

It is not a straw man, it goes to the core issue. If your faith doesn't move you to action then you won't be going to heaven.

We will be judged by our works and our faith.

 

[zoidar]

If men are justified by faith alone (Sola Fide) then what does James 2:24mean when it says, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”?

"Martin Luther ADDED words to the Bible that were not there. When he was confronted with this sin of adding to the Bible he replied: "Bacause Dr. Martin Luther will have it so!"

"faith Alone" (Sola Fide) Should we believe in Martin Luther a man who admitted to adding the word "Alone" in Scripture which no man can add or subtract? or should we Listen to James 2:24?

Who do you and your church listen to, Martin Luther or James 2:24?

I think that faith and works come together. If you don't have works you don't have faith, and if you don't have faith then you don't have works. Works as I see it is serving God by doing good stuff. If you don't have faith, you can't really serve God, and if you don't serve God, it shows that you don't have genuine faith.

 

[Albion]

It is not a straw man, it goes to the core issue. If your faith doesn't move you to action then you won't be going to heaven.

I called it a strawman argument for good reason. No one says that a dead faith saves--not Luther, not the Reformation, not anyone posting on this thread, no one.

So knock that idea down if you wish, but there's almost no one to be refuted by it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's been my experience that those who think faith only save dismiss the simple truth that free gifts can come with conditions and meeting the conditions does NOT earn the free gift. THey seem to think that if you do ANY work then you are trying to earn the free gift.

It was a free gift of grace God rained down manna to Israel in the wilderness so they would have food to eat, yet God still required them to do the work of gathering the manna. Not meeting this condition of gather would leave them to starve. Yet doing this work of gathering was meeting a condition on God's free gift, not earning it.

John 6:27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus said to work for the meat that endure unto everlasting life which He gives. He GIVES everlasting life so it is free, so why LABOUR? For everlasting life is a free gift that comes with conditi

Good explanations.

To me there was never any question, the overall expectations were just clear. However I was never exposed to the other side at all...maybe one of the advantages of being a recluse at the time, who attended no church.

 

[DRobert]

Yes, that's the claim but it's false. Justification by Faith is Biblical.

Justification by faith does not equate justification by faith alone.

That appears not to be entirely correct, if we consider the Church Fathers. But BTW, transubstantiation and Purgatory were never part of the faith until well into the Middle Ages and I never see Christians who believe in either of them making this argument. I guess it only matters when they go after reformed Christians.

argumentum ad ignorantiam:

Lack of evidence for the labels "transubstantiation" and "purgatory" does not prove your position.

Here I quote evidence to support my position:
""Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

You can find more evidence here concerning the Early Church Fathers in support of the Catholic teaching:
The Real Presence | Catholic Answers


"The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45)."

You can read more about it here:
The Roots of Purgatory | Catholic Answers

 

[DRobert]

This should be worth looking at on Catholics and Lutherans making a joint statement on justification:

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification