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thereselittleflower

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Jig said:
I see several religious institutes giving this falsely heightened regard for Mary, that we just don't see in Scriptures.

Jig, when were the books of the NT written in relationship to Mary's life and death?

Why would you expect to see this heightened regard of Mary while she was stlll alive?

In the only book known to be written after her death, we see her in heaven as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, the crown of 12 stars. . ..

That's a pretty lofty description of Mary.



It's highly odd that a woman of such importance (at least to the degree of veneration) would be absent from the epstiles of the NT and hold absolutely no part in the early Church (at least this is what it appears given the inspired writings we have).

Why?





You left out a word . . . an important word . .. "YEA". . ..

Actually, if you understand Hebrew idioms, Jesus was saying "YEA, indeed" . . look again:
G3304
μενοῦνγε
menounge
men-oon'-geh
From G3303 and G3767 and G1065; so then at least: - nay but, yea doubtless (rather, verily).
The translation rendered thusly:
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

This makes Mary DOUBLY BLESSED as not only is she blessed because she is His mother in actuallity, literally, she is ALSO blessed because she heard the word of God and KEPT IT.


So rather than being dismissal of what the woman said, Jesus AFFIRMED it and then gave it even more importance, whch applied to Mary foremost of all who heard and obeyed God in her perfect submission to His will "May it be done unto me according to thy word.".



Peace
 
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thereselittleflower

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Jig said:
I'm thinking this was the pattern of thinking the Pharisees used. Did you know they traced their roots back to Moses?

The Pharisees came into existance only a few hundred years before Christ. Did you know that? hundreds and hundreds of years after Moses ..

Which groups here came into existance hundreds and hundreds of years after the Apostles? The Catholics? No . . . . .



Your implied comparison is faulty


God had a hard time with the majority of Israel (His chosen people) believing correctly...only a small fraction withstood. History has the tendency to repeat itself.

Lotical Fallacy - Non Sequitur . . does not follow . . no facts to make any logical connection have been provided.



Peace
 
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Jig

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thereselittleflower said:
Jig, when were the books of the NT written in relationship to Mary's life and death?

Why would you expect to see this heightened regard of Mary while she was stlll alive?

Why would you not? Would she not carry an important role/part in the early Church, if she indeed was so special and unique amoung the other Christians? I would expect her to be in a position higher that any apostle, if the RCC position in regards to her was true.

We don't see this in Acts.

In the only book known to be written after her death, we see her in heaven as the woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, the crown of 12 stars. . ..

That depends on institutional affiliation. Your Church teaches that intereptation. Which many believe comes from a fallacious understanding of Scripture.

That's a pretty lofty description of Mary.

Or a dead on description of Israel.




Why not?




I would expect Catholic scholars and translators to catch that one, however, in pro-Catholic translations, such as the NAB...we don't see that rendered that way. I would hope they would have a better understanding of Greek (not Hebrew) then you. Hmmm...

If an infallable teaching Magisterium is needed to overcome the conflicting interpretations of Scripture, how are we supposed to overcome the conflicting interpretations amoung Roman Catholics (by, for example, Jesuits, Franciscans, and Dominicans) regarding what the pronouncements of the Magisterium mean?
 
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BigChrisfilm

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Was she sinless or not? Answer that
 
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Benedicta00

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Chris,

Mary was an observant Jew. She was a good Jew. She was an obedient Jew. She was raised and taught Judaism and practiced and observed her faith because this is how one loved, served, and obeyed their God.

She also was profoundly humble, probably why the bible does not come out and say all that Mary was/is. It is because of something called humility.

Why don’t you take what is said about her in the bible and mediate on it. Consider all the things scripture does say she did and you will find a sinless women in there if you know how to look. Mary was very humble, so you will have to look deep.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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You mean I need to think about it long and hard. Then after awhile, I will have brainwashed myself into thinking something that isn't in scripture? The last thing I need to do is sit and ponder on something, if you knew the true capability of man to corrupt, twist and turn, and add to scripture with man's greatest idol (the mind) you would know that I can't trust myself on anything.
 
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Jig

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I can say the same about John the Baptist. Surely, the RCC doesn't see him as being sinless. No? Yet, we see him in the same light as Mary is within Scriptural evidences of "sinless" lifestyle and godliness.
 
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Benedicta00

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BigChrisfilm said:
Really, I thought it was just the Roman Catholics. Who else believes that?
Chris,

You do have so much to learn about the history of Christianity. It's only been in the last 100 or so years we see this departure, degradation and denial of Mary.

Read below carefully. It's the reformers speaking about Mary. Quotes taken from various published works of theirs.

When they broke from the Church, it wasn’t over Marian doctrine but rather extream Marian devotion.


THE PROTESTANT REFORMERS ON MARY

 
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Jig

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I'm non-denominational. I'm not interested in what other fallable people had to say. That does not prove your position right or wrong and seems unwarranted.

Denial of Mary? You seem to have the same position towards our intentions as thereselittleflower does...

I will repeat what I told her:
---
You try to turn these debates around and make it seem like we are attacking Mary. I don't think negativly about Mary. All I am debating (or what you call attacking) is specific doctrine I'm having trouble grasping. We are to test such doctrines and see if the hold water when compared to Scripture.

Please, do not think or say I'm attacking Mary. I am not. I respect Mary, I feel she would not want to be placed on such a high pedistool. She was humble and would have hated that some Christians are directing a lot of their prayers and attention towards her and not her Son.

Your religious institution's doctrines have failed every test, and in my opinion (and I'm allowed to have one) Catholics have elevated Mary to a position she is not in or would wish to be in.
 
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Benedicta00

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Jig said:
I can say the same about John the Baptist. Surely, the RCC doesn't see him as being sinless. No? Yet, we see him in the same light as Mary is within Scriptural evidences of "sinless" lifestyle and godliness.
Jig,

Please see my post above. This Mary denial stuff is new invention of the 21st century.

But to address John the Baptist, Jesus did say none was greater. He lived like a true believer ought.


But he wasn’t conceived born sinless but he was sanctified in his mother’s womb. When? When he leaped for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice.
 
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Benedicta00

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Never said anyone was attacking her. What are you talking about?

I said this denying and degrading her dogmas is not something that was done in the early reformed churches.

Historically speaking, any intellectually honest person can not deny that only recently there has been a departure from Marian teaching.

You say you do not listen to fallible men? Then why are you a sola scripturist? That’s a man made doctrine.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
But to address John the Baptist, Jesus did say none was greater. He lived like a true believer ought.

None, greater? Surely, he was lesser than Mary, if she was truely sinless. Why would Jesus say this?
 
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aboutface

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I dunno. I thought Christianity was about Christ? Where do we get off thinking that other people were or are "sinless". If Mary was sinless then she would have been the one to die for the salvation of all, not her first born child, who by the way was conceived in a sinless manner. Scripture don't tell us Mary was born of no human father does it!! It does tell us that Jesus had no man for a genetic father, but instead was begotten by the Holy Spirit. This, and only this breaks the flesh tie to Adam, which condemns all others to being "born into sin". Come-on guys start reading your bible.Ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind to His Written Word. Don't just keep looking at what others say the bible says.
I once knew a guy who told me the bible wasn't worth reading. How do you know I asked him a little incredulously. Oh he said that is easy I read 50 other writers who all said it wasn't worth reading so of course it can't be.

Just another thought.
If one person says something foolish it is a foolish thing.
IF 2 million people say something foolish, it is still a foolish thing.
 
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Jig

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Benedicta00 said:
Never said anyone was attacking her. What are you talking about?

I told you I was merely copying what I said to thereselittleflower, surely you could distinguish what she said against what you've said.

I said this denying and degrading her dogmas is not something that was done in the early reformed churches.

Yet, you comment on this "denial of Mary" in a negitive tone, as if trying to say I (and others) are disrespecting her. If you can't see my position clearly after my last post, then you may want to reconsider how you conduct this debate with me. You'd be assuming my intentions and true stance.

Historically speaking, any intellectually honest person can not deny that only recently there has been a departure from Marian teaching.

Your lucky I see what you see in history or you'd be calling me stupid and ignorant. That would be quite rude.

You say you do not listen to fallible men? Then why are you a sola scripturist? That’s a man made doctrine.

Hmmm...you end your rebuttal with an uncalled for attack? I guess you assumed I believe in Sola Scriptura?

As for your claim, this is not the thread to discuss it.
 
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Benedicta00

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The bible does not state it explicitly but it does implicitly state it in a number of ways. See Genesis 3: 15 and read Luke and Mary at the foot of the cross. She certainly did not have the behavior of someone with sin.

These things do not point a finger towards sinfulness but rather paint a picture of sinlessness instead.

But… why are you assuming the sinlessness of Mary takes away from Christ and makes her the center? I don’t understand?

And to address some really bad error about what the Immaculate Conception is. Her parents didn’t have to be nor where they sinless also. God saved Mary at her conception the same way he saves us when we are “born again,” by applying Christ merits to her. He just did it for he in advance, her at conception before she was born into this world and he does it for us after we have been born into this world.
 
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Benedicta00

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I’m going to pass on your posts from now on because you are taking offense and reading offense where there is none.
 
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JJB

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Non-RCC can love Mary without making her out to be a sinless perpetual virgin who is Queen of Heaven, co-redeemer, dispenser of all grace, etc.

Mary herself refers to her need for a Savior (Luke 1:47), and she's sometimes rebuked by Jesus (Luke 2:48-50, John 2:3-4). Not only do we see Jesus rebuking Mary in scripture, but we also see Mary distrusting Jesus and suggesting that He did something wrong (Luke 2:41-50).
She was anxious about Him, and she asks, "Son, why have you treated us this way?" (verse 48). When Jesus explains that He had to be in His Father's house, Mary doesn't even understand so simple a statement (verse 50).

Have you got a site for the early reformers? I'm assuming it came from either a website that is RCC or an RCC book.
 
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aboutface

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I say again if one person says something foolish then it is a foolish thing.
If 2 million people say something foolish then it is still a fooloish thing.
Whom did Jesus, whom I guess all of us acknowledge as God, pray to?
How did HE direct His disciples and therefore implicitly and explicitly us to pray?
As to the virgin birth... That was Jesus not Mary, who very soon after giving birth to Jesus stopped being a virgin.
I would hesitate to say that anyone other than Jesus was sinless. The bible only says Jesus was without sin.
Yes Abraham was credited with righteousness, and so were a few others. Mary was not sinless at her birth. No human baby, begotten by the normal means of conjoining of sperm and egg neither can nor ever has been born sinless. Every new born baby (apart from Jesus) is a sinner. There are no innocents.
You, me, Mary, Joseph, Paul, Stephen Hawking, Pope John, we all need Christ as our saviour. Church dogma is not scripture. Scritpure is scripture. Read that carefully.
Read carefully. It is Christ who has the power and authority of God, no-one else.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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First of all. The Roman Catholic church WAS NOT the first church. It wasn't created until hundreds of years AFTER Christ died. The true bible believers were around, before, during, and after the Roman Catholics.
 
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