If man evolved, where does God fit into the equation?

[er72]

So according to that logic why do you believe God is good? Sin and death consumes this world, even if evolution is false.

I have many reasons for believing as I do.

What are your reasons?

Mine do not lie in simply following a religion because I was taught to.

Sin and death do tarnish our world, correct. But God is not the author of sin (contrary to certain Christian sects which teach such things). Neither is God the author of death. Hebrews tells us that the devil is the one who held the power of death. He is also called the god of this world or age.

 

[elopez]

I have many reasons for believing as I do.

What are your reasons?

Mine do not lie in simply following a religion because I was taught to.

Sin and death do tarnish our world, correct. But God is not the author of sin (contrary to certain Christian sects which teach such things). Neither is God the author of death. Hebrews tells us that the devil is the one who held the power of death. He is also called the god of this world or age.

I agree that God is not the author of sin and also believe in evolution. I was just wondering because you said earlier that "If evolution is true, then I would wager almost certainly that (orthodox, anyway) Christianity is false. There is no compatibility between a world of death and sin and a good, loving Creator." Obviously there is compatibility between a world of death and sin and a loving, good Creator even if evolution is true.

 

[er72]

I agree that God is not the author of sin and also believe in evolution. I was just wondering because you said earlier that "If evolution is true, then I would wager almost certainly that (orthodox, anyway) Christianity is false. There is no compatibility between a world of death and sin and a good, loving Creator." Obviously there is compatibility between a world of death and sin and a loving, good Creator even if evolution is true.

How so?

You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

the devil has the upper hand over God?

How does he have the "upper hand"?

God did not want death and desctruction, but the devil did. Death and destruction is everywhere. Sooo ... the devil got what he wanted?

You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.

I wouldn't exactly take Dawkin's word on the nature of God. He admitted he doesn't even bother to look at arguments for his existance.
God made the natural laws, but as I said earlier they work indepenantly of him. He made the process but the process is blind. The 'savagery of nature' is not a good example either. Animals do what they do because it works, it's wrong to think of them as bad or cruel just because humans find it offensive.

 

[elopez]

How so?

You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.

Actually I don't think I have asserted God made the world flawed and imperfect, and if I did I don't remember, so could you maybe point that out? While you brought it up though, why do you assume that the world is created or can be created perfect? Only God is perfect, and what He creates is not God and thus not perfect. So either way you put it the world is flawed and imperfect, but is that really God's fault? No, it is mans.

 

[er72]

God did not want death and desctruction, but the devil did. Death and destruction is everywhere. Sooo ... the devil got what he wanted?

I would say the devil got what he wanted, yes.

People die everyday and burn in hell, which is very much his plan, so he's doing pretty well at deceiving the world I'd say.

 

[er72]

Actually I don't think I have asserted God made the world flawed and imperfect, and if I did I don't remember, so could you maybe point that out? While you brought it up though, why do you assume that the world is created or can be created perfect? Only God is perfect, and what He creates is not God and thus not perfect. So either way you put it the world is flawed and imperfect, but is that really God's fault? No, it is mans.

Well, that's false.

Ezekiel 28 tells us satan was perfect until he sinned. So God can and does create perfection.

I believe God is good and perfect and therefore, anything He does is the same. The expression goes, "God don't make junk."

That said, He made the world perfect, along with humanity and everything else. It all declares His glory and perfection. Until man sinned, that is.

BTW, if man evolved to be a sinner, by God's design, why is man to blame and not God?

 

[Fencerguy]

Ignoring the fact that we do know of mechanisms that increase complexity, what makes macroevolution any more atheistic than microevolution?

What., pray tell, are these mechanisms that can increase complexity? How does a simply organism acquire new genetic information that it does not previously possess?

The supposition of macroevolution that all organisms are descended from a single ancestor is not congruent with what we find related in Scripture. For a Christian, Scripture is authoritative (does it explain everything? obviously no). Scripture relates that God created several types of organisms, and that they were to reproduce after their own kind....so the idea that all organisms came from a single ancestor is necessarily atheistic....
Microevolution is not atheistic at all.....When properly integrated with a Christian perspective, there is no issue with microevolution

 

[er72]

I believe fully in adaptation within a species, but I don't believe that one species can transmutate into an entirely new species. Birds are the former dinosaurs? Really? I have trouble buying that.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I would say the devil got what he wanted, yes.

People die everyday and burn in hell, which is very much his plan, so he's doing pretty well at deceiving the world I'd say.

Devil is greater than God? Doesn't it seem rather sad that a Christian should portray God as so powerless and / or indifferent? You're also overlooking the many good things which go on in the world.

 

[er72]

Devil is greater than God? Doesn't it seem rather sad that a Christian should portray God as so powerless and / or indifferent? You're also overlooking the many good things which go on in the world.

I think it's sad that Christians attempt to raise God's "sovereignty" over His love. My Bible says God is love, not God is sovereignty.

I overlook nothing. The good is from God. James tells us all perfect and good gifts come down from the Father of Lights.

Death, sin and survival of the fittest, however, are not good or perfect gifts. They do not come from God.

 

[elopez]

Well, that's false.

Ezekiel 28 tells us satan was perfect until he sinned. So God can and does create perfection.

I believe God is good and perfect and therefore, anything He does is the same. The expression goes, "God don't make junk."

That said, He made the world perfect, along with humanity and everything else. It all declares His glory and perfection. Until man sinned, that is.

BTW, if man evolved to be a sinner, by God's design, why is man to blame and not God?

Not the same perfection found in God, as there is no sin or iniquity found in Him. Satan was not perfect as God was, or was do you think so? Again only God is perfect and no other other can compare to God's perfection and thus no other thing is truly perfect. If you want to ignore that then that is up to you, it would just be denying the perfection of God.

So neither was humanity perfect as they sinned and had the desire to sin. We we inherently good. The world and other creation was deemed "good," not "perfect." We actually didn't 'evolve' to be sinners. We were meant to be in everlasting fellowship with God, but the first couple choose death instead. That is his fault, not God's.

 

[er72]

Not the same perfection found in God, as there is no sin or iniquity found in Him. Satan was not perfect as God was, or was do you think so? Again only God is perfect and no other other can compare to God's perfection and thus no other thing is truly perfect. If you want to ignore that then that is up to you, it would just be denying the perfection of God.

So neither was humanity perfect as they sinned and had the desire to sin. We we inherently good. The world and other creation was deemed "good," not "perfect." We actually didn't 'evolve' to be sinners. We were meant to be in everlasting fellowship with God, but the first couple choose death instead. That is his fault, not God's.

There was no sin or iniquity in Lucifer until he fell either. Read Ezekiel 28:15.

There aren't different degrees of "perfect". Either something is perfect or it's not. Anything short of 'perfect' is therefore, imperfect. God is not "more perfect" than everything else. He is perfect. As are all His works - including Creation. A flawed, imperfect creation could not have come from a perfect God.

How did they choose death when everything died long before them anyway?

 

[Fencerguy]

How so?

You assert that God made the world flawed and imperfect. Such is not the handiwork of a good, loving, PERFECT God. Such is the work of a blind, incompetent, uncaring, cruel God who merely uses natural processes to do everything. Even Richard Dawkins can recognize that the savagery of nature and its inherent cruelty would call a 'loving God' into question.

God did create the world as perfect originally...What other connotation can we have of a perfect Creator calling His creation "very good?"
Within that perfect original state, imagine what microevolution would have been like, as more generations of animals were born and raised how they could have adapted and changed without the curse of death or harmful mutations. It would have been something to see how microevolution worked in a perfect sinless world.....

God made the natural laws, but as I said earlier they work indepenantly of him. He made the process but the process is blind. The 'savagery of nature' is not a good example either. Animals do what they do because it works, it's wrong to think of them as bad or cruel just because humans find it offensive.

I would go even farther and say that God works above the laws of nature. Not necessarily independent of them, but in ways that are above them. The plagues on Egypt would be a prime example in my mind of God taking natural processes (populations of frogs, flies, diseases, etc) and tweaking them at that instance to suit His purposes....

And also along with your point about not calling animals savage or cruel, I would say that since humans are the only species that has been set apart by being created in God's Image, we should not use our sense of morality or ethics to judge the ways that organisms who are not created in God's image utilize to ensure survival....

 

[elopez]

There was no sin or iniquity in Lucifer until he fell either. Read Ezekiel 28:15.

The point is iniquity was in Lucifer at some point. At no point is iniquity found in God.

There aren't different degrees of "perfect". Either something is perfect or it's not. Anything short of 'perfect' is therefore, imperfect. God is not "more perfect" than everything else. He is perfect. As are all His works - including Creation. A flawed, imperfect creation could not have come from a perfect God.

Of course there isn't. I am saying that Lucifer obviously wasn't perfect and that God is solely perfect. Lucifer is not perfect we were not perfect and nor was the world perfect. Only God was perfect and always will be. God doesn't succumb to sin and that's what it means to be perfect, since giving into sin is short of perfect, or is it not?

How did they choose death when everything died long before them anyway?

Because it was a death that was different from all the rest of the animals and previous life forms as they did not contain souls that first was infused with.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I would go even farther and say that God works above the laws of nature. Not necessarily independent of them, but in ways that are above them. The plagues on Egypt would be a prime example in my mind of God taking natural processes (populations of frogs, flies, diseases, etc) and tweaking them at that instance to suit His purposes....

And also along with your point about not calling animals savage or cruel, I would say that since humans are the only species that has been set apart by being created in God's Image, we should not use our sense of morality or ethics to judge the ways that organisms who are not created in God's image utilize to ensure survival....

Yes, I agree.

There aren't different degrees of "perfect". Either something is perfect or it's not. Anything short of 'perfect' is therefore, imperfect. God is not "more perfect" than everything else. He is perfect. As are all His works - including Creation. A flawed, imperfect creation could not have come from a perfect God.

If we're getting technical then if something was 'perfect' then it would be capable of becoming 'imperfect' in the first place. It would be free from flaws and the ability to become flawed. God saw the world as 'very good' (which it is), not 'unable to go wrong'.

 

[er72]

The point is iniquity was in Lucifer at some point. At no point is iniquity found in God.

(Contrary to what a lot of religious people teach - God breaking His own laws. As if.)

The point is that Lucifer was perfect until he fell. So God does create perfection. It's all He does.

Of course there isn't. I am saying that Lucifer obviously wasn't perfect and that God is solely perfect. Lucifer is not perfect we were not perfect and nor was the world perfect. Only God was perfect and always will be. God doesn't succumb to sin and that's what it means to be perfect, since giving into sin is short of perfect, or is it not?

The Bible would disagree with you then. It says clearly that he was created perfect UNTIL iniquity was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15. Look it up.

Man was perfect until he sinned too. Our goal is perfection and to become like God. Jesus even taught this.

Because it was a death that was different from all the rest of the animals and previous life forms as they did not contain souls that first was infused with.

So it was only spiritual? I don't buy that.

Then maybe Jesus was only "spiritually" resurrected, to defeat "spiritual" death?

This metaphor business can lead to many ditches, you know.

But 'every man is right in his own eyes'.

 

[er72]

If we're getting technical then if something was 'perfect' then it would be capable of becoming 'imperfect' in the first place. It would be free from flaws and the ability to become flawed. God saw the world as 'very good' (which it is), not 'unable to go wrong'.

Then obviously God's definition is different than yours.

That's false. That is the atheist's argument: "God should've created a world WITH free will and man who would never break His laws." That is impossibly ridiculous and ridiculously impossible! The very concept of a soul and cognition must allow for the ability to choose NOT to follow God. That is hardly an imperfection.

One would think that a being without such cognition would be lacking in perfection, I'd say.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

That's false. That is the atheist's argument: "God should've created a world WITH free will and man who would never break His laws." That is impossibly ridiculous and ridiculously impossible! The very concept of a soul and cognition must allow for the ability to choose NOT to follow God. That is hardly an imperfection.

Hm. So a perfect being which is capable of making it's own choices (even bad ones) is still perfect. Yes, fair enough. In which case I could argue that the world is still perfect, but it frequently makes bad choices. To clarify, if the ability to go wrong does not make something imperfect, then what does?

 

[elopez]

So it was only spiritual? I don't buy that.

Then maybe Jesus was only "spiritually" resurrected, to defeat "spiritual" death?

This metaphor business can lead to many ditches, you know.

But 'every man is right in his own eyes'.

I believe it was both spiritual and physical.

Plus the Bible never says man was created perfect and the same for the rest of creation. It says "good," which does not mean perfect.