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If man evolved, where does God fit into the equation?

er72

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I'm surprised to see so many Christians who buy into the evolutionary way of thinking. Most of the believers I know in real life are ardent Creationists, holding to a literal creation - not evolution - of mankind. So it's interesting to see so many Christians hold to a different point of view.

That said, I have a question. Where does God fit into the entire process then, if man is said to have evolved from primates? If God just allowed man to run its natural course and somehow evolve into an entire new species, then how was this in any way, an act of God? It's not difficult for an atheist to disbelieve in God, seeing how the theory of evolution does not require the existence of a god in order to be true. So it's understandable how so many atheists flock to this theory, in light of that. But it's strange to find so many Christians also believing in evolution.

I have to wonder where God fits into all of this, if at all? For the ardent evolutionists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?
 
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Martingale

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I have to wonder where God fits into all of this, if at all? For the ardent evolutionists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?

as an "ardent" evolutionist and a Christian from birth ...

science doesn't speak to matters of faith, the bible isn't a science text. I believe God gave us the qualities of curiosity to wonder about and the intelligence to explore the true and full nature of His creation which is richer and than the pseudo-science that creationism masquerades as. I believe He wants us to understand physical creation, all for His greater glory.

creationists lead a barren existence of hijacking and misrepresenting science to shoehorn the bible into places it was never meant to be, as I see it. arguments over the number of animals on ye arke and where the plague bacilli lived during the flood are a dry well and a waste of my time.

take the night sky. science can explore the wonders of deep space, while at the same time, in the worlds of the psalmist, ... "the heavens declare the glory of God..."
 
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Keachian

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It's not difficult for an atheist to disbelieve in God, seeing how the theory of evolution does not require the existence of a god in order to be true. So it's understandable how so many atheists flock to this theory, in light of that. But it's strange to find so many Christians also believing in evolution.

How can we see what evolution is like without, or with God. The science is largely agnostic on matters of faith, so since I believe in a God who is both sovereign and sustainer, it only makes sense that God is present in evolution in much the same way as an atheist doesn't believe that God was present in evolution.
 
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Papias

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er72 wrote:

I have to wonder where God fits into all of this, if at all? For the ardent evolutionists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?

Biological science shows HOW God created (He did it by using evolution). This shows the glory of God - who is able to create a massively complex, interwoven, flexible and robust creative system of life. The key here is that evolution strengthens my faith, and makes me even more enamored with a God who is so astoundingly glorious!

The idea of taking it "on faith" feels to me like trying to support the idea of God as a white haired human guy in the sky, who jumps in and does miracles when it's clear that his machine isn't running like he wants it to. So in that case, we know in our hearts that no superhero like that exists, and we need props to hide that fact from ourselves, and pretend through sheer will that we believe, then call that sheer will "faith".

That's not at all how I see God. I don't need constant evidence of a "jumping in" god, when I don't see God as an interposing person who thinks like we do. I KNOW God is real in the same way that I know Gravity is real - that the whole universe is pervaded by God. Remember that evolution was, after all, mostly established by Christians, as a part of their Christian worldview, mostly for other Christians.

I understand this is different from how many Christians see God. Many Christians do see God as that guy who is super duper powerful and flies around doing miracles when he sees a place that could use one, and try to substitute denial and willpower for understanding of God's glory as revealed by science (which, after all, is studying Gods other revelation - His creation). I also apprecieate your honest and cordial post. Too often we ge angry creationists who just spout venom. So I hope my description above helps you see how some of us see God. In that light, understand how parts of your post sound to me. I don't write the below to bother you, but to help you see what I see.

**************************************
If the planets move by gravity, where does God fit into the equation?
I'm surprised to see so many Christians who buy into the gravitational way of thinking.

That said, I have a question. Where does God fit into the entire process then, if if the planets move by gravity? If God just allowed gravity to run its natural course and somehow move the planets in their orbits, then how was this in any way, an act of God? It's not difficult for an atheist to disbelieve in God, seeing how the theory of gravity does not require the existence of a god in order to be true. So it's understandable how so many atheists flock to this theory, in light of that. But it's strange to find so many Christians also believing in gravity.

I have to wonder where God fits into all of this, if at all? For the ardent gravitationalists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?
***********************************************​

The key here is that science helps show us how God works. Seeing how God works never changes that fact that it is God doing the work, even if we now know more about what He is doing. As far as evolution goes, looking into it shows that most Christians worldwide are in churches that support evolution, and more importantly, that evolution is extremely well established - it's more certain that evolution happened than, say, that the Civil War happened. Denying evolution makes us, as Christians, look as out of touch with reality as birthers and deathers.​

However our conversation leads, welcome to Christian Forums! I hope you find your time here enjoyable.​

See ya-​

Papias​
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I'm surprised to see so many Christians who buy into the evolutionary way of thinking. Most of the believers I know in real life are ardent Creationists, holding to a literal creation - not evolution - of mankind. So it's interesting to see so many Christians hold to a different point of view.

We believe in a literal creation too, God literally created the universe 14 billion years ago. That is important to keep in mind here. God is the Author of all things, the Creator, the One who sustains all things. The means by which He has done this are simply the means by which He has done this.

That said, I have a question. Where does God fit into the entire process then, if man is said to have evolved from primates? If God just allowed man to run its natural course and somehow evolve into an entire new species, then how was this in any way, an act of God? It's not difficult for an atheist to disbelieve in God, seeing how the theory of evolution does not require the existence of a god in order to be true. So it's understandable how so many atheists flock to this theory, in light of that. But it's strange to find so many Christians also believing in evolution.

Let me answer that with a question. When you were in your mother's womb you were the result of a natural process by which an egg was fertilized and it split to become a zygote, and that process continued as this zygote continued to divide and divide and through an entirely natural process that happens in every pregnancy some cells become specialized, fingers, hair, eyes, lungs, heart, and nine months later you came into the world crying and breathing. Where was God in all this? The answer is in all of it.

God is involved in everything in creation, the orbit of the planets, the nuclear forces holding atoms together, the procreation of fish, all of it. It's no different with evolution.

If we believe God has created all things and sustains the universe then every natural phenomenon we observe, study and experience is the handiwork of the Almighty.

I have to wonder where God fits into all of this, if at all? For the ardent evolutionists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?

Of course I take it on faith. That's why it's faith. The same reason I take the Incarnation on faith, the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ on faith. I confess one God, Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth of all things seen and unseen; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; and in one Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver of life who proceeds from the Father [and the Son] who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified. I confess Christ's holy Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and eternal life in the Age to Come.

My Christian faith is everything to me. Jesus Christ is Lord and God, King of kings and Lord of lords, Savior and Good Shepherd.

I also accept that the information we've learned through study of the natural world is okay, and I don't have to turn my brain off in order to follow the Lord Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mallon

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Where does God fit into the entire process then, if man is said to have evolved from primates? If God just allowed man to run its natural course and somehow evolve into an entire new species, then how was this in any way, an act of God?
Maybe you ought to ask a more pertinent question of yourself: Why do you assume that natural processes occur apart from God?
 
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gluadys

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If God just allowed man to run its natural course and somehow evolve into an entire new species, then how was this in any way, an act of God?

I second the answers of Martingale, Papias & CryptoLutheran.

Hidden in your question is a profoundly anti-Christian assumption: that God is not involved in the natural course of events.

God is involved in all natural courses of events, like reproduction, today's weather, the formation of stars and of snowflakes. God is just as much involved in natural events as in supernatural events.

Why would a Christian exclude God from a natural course of action, simply because it is natural? Why would any natural course of events not be seen, by a Christian, as an act of God?

God's role in evolution is simply the same as God's role in all of creation's natural powers. God made them, orders them, sustains them in accord with his loving purposes.





For the ardent evolutionists here, how strong is your faith in God? How do you KNOW God is real; or is it just something that you take 'on faith'?

I am always amazed at this question. The New Testament is clear on how we know God is real: through the witness of the Holy Spirit testifying in our hearts, through personal experience of the resurrected and living Christ in one's life.

I have been in evangelistic services where the preacher emphasized the importance of not relying on family tradition, correct doctrine or faithful church attendance, but on the personal experience of Jesus as living Lord and Saviour as the one and only basis of Christian knowledge of God and salvation.

You speak of taking something 'on faith' as if that were a bad thing. But isn't that the heart of Christianity? Like all Christians I know God is real because I believe in God and God is faithful to reward my belief with the grace of his presence through the Holy Spirit.
 
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er72

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If we're going to say that God is involved in the weather and natural events, then we might as well blame Him for the hurricanes and earthquakes that destroy people's homes and lives. I cannot do that. I have never been able to accept such a view and doubtfully ever will be able to.

The reason I posit that evolution does not need God to exist is because as far as the scientific community is concerned; it doesn't. If you feel it necessary or important to insert God (or a god) into the theory in order to synergize it with your faith, then by all means go ahead and do so.

The problem, though, is that Christianity teaches certain assumptions and beliefs, like the existence of sin and the origins from which that sin came from. By saying man evolved, then his 'sin' is nothing more than a natural outgrowth of his natural design. For instance, many animals kill one another for food, territory, a mate, etc. Yet humans are told not to do these things because they are "sins." But if evolution is true, why is a natural behavior suddenly deemed to be wrong? At what point did such behavior go from "survival of the fittest" to "altruism over all else?" That doesn't make much sense. It is as though God suddenly appeared on the scene and changed the rules.

It is mere presumption to say that God guides child birth (and therefore must guide child death as well; a scary thought), the weather or natural selection. Where do you obtain such information from? I would presume it would be from an attempt at synergizing science and religion. As I said, that's fine - if it works for you, but I see a conflict.

If man evolved, then science is clear - there is no need for the existence of a god or God. Evolution was not founded by Christians - Darwin walked away from his Christian faith and died a non-Christian. And that was his choice. However, the point is that science works very well with Occam's Razor or parsimony, which is clear - the simplest explanation is the best one. Top scientists and physicists have long theorized a world that can come into existence without the existence of God or a god at all. And assuming that evolution is true, then you are choosing which portions of the Bible you choose to believe and which to dismiss. Why do so? It seems like shaky ground to be playing around at which Scriptures you wish to believe and which you do not. You could easily do the same with ANY other verse or concept within the Bible, that you do not like. Is that dangerous?

I am not supposing that there is no God or the like, but I am finding it strange to see Christians compromising in areas of their faith for agreement with secular scientists who are adamant that "there is no God". Last I checked, Dawkins was NOT a Christian. ;) Brilliant man, for sure, but not a Christian. Are Christians becoming so afraid of being labeled as "stupid" that we are adopting worldly beliefs, standards and customs?

The fact is, morality has little place within evolution. Or at least, absolute morality. Within the framework of evolution, man is just another animal, one who exists merely to propagate the next generation; nothing more. To whatever accomplishes that end (be it killing, destroying or stepping over another) is entirely permissible - heck, it is encouraged, as far as evolution is concerned. After all, all animals do this and it was (apparently) designed by God to be that way. So why would man try to fight his "God-given" programming? Why would God issue two different edicts; one, a natural, evolutionary "survival of the fittest" program, the other; a moral, contradictory, altruistic edict? How can we even condemn people for "giving in to" or following their animal urges, when God supposedly put them there in the first place?

And we can't quote the Bible, because we are selecting which passages we choose to accept, and which we do not, as dictated by our culture and sciences. So where does that leave us? Apparently, no better off than the atheist evolutionists. But as I said, the problem is, that it seems many believers are believers simply because of their birth into the Christian religion, or their culture (in the West) mostly endorses Christianity. I shudder to think that Richard Dawkins may actually be right, when he says that if you were born into another culture or time, you would be worshipping Thor, Zeus, Loki or Odin. Those are scary thoughts, aren't they?

The questions of where morality came from, why God suddenly changed His mind about design versus morality, and other questions about God's existence become murky waters. Waters I would rather not dive into, as a Christian. But that's just me. It's fine if you have had personal experience with God and THAT is how you know God is real. I can accept that myself, on a personal level. But putting that part of it aside, we really have nothing to base our faith upon, since it is merely a gamble or a crapshoot into which religion is correct (if any) or which God is the real one (if any - according to evolution, that is).

I offer you these thoughts for your consideration.

And thanks for the welcome, Papias. I must say, your beliefs sound much more like deism to me than typical Christianity (especially given what you said about God not intervening in our world and such).
 
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Mallon

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er72, why are you labeling Papias as a deist when you admit that you do not view God to be a constant in the universe? How are you not a deist yourself? How do your own beliefs not contradict the teachings of the Bible concerning the constancy of God's providence (John 5:17; Heb 1:3 Matt 10:29)? It strikes me that you have a plank in your eye, my friend.
 
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er72

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er72, why are you labeling Papias as a deist when you admit that you do not view God to be a constant in the universe? How are you not a deist yourself? How do your own beliefs not contradict the teachings of the Bible (John 5:17; Heb 1:3 Matt 10:29)? It strikes me that you have a plank in your eye, by friend.

I'm lost. I'm not labeling anybody as anything. I simply stated a fact - and that was that the views expressed appear to be deistic in nature. Nothing more.

I'm very confused by what you said. I don't believe in evolution. I believe in the Bible. So, why are you throwing random scriptures at me? I point you to Genesis 1 - 3. Please tell me where in the Bible it states that never happened or where it says the creation story is merely a fable or a myth.

If you're going to throw the beginning of the Bible out the window, you might as well do so with the rest of it. Why pick and choose?
 
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Martingale

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If you're going to throw the beginning of the Bible out the window, you might as well do so with the rest of it. Why pick and choose?

strawman, a misstatement of the opposing position.

this is how creationists always argue their point on internet forums like this. there's no debate, no exchange of views in charity, only this kind of blunt assertion.

as I expected, a waste of time.
 
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er72

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strawman, a misstatement of the opposing position.

this is how creationists always argue their point on internet forums like this. there's no debate, no exchange of views in charity, only this kind of blunt assertion.

as I expected, a waste of time.

Maybe you should read the rest of my post that took the better part of an hour to type out then.

I'm not here to argue anything. I find it to be amazing to see such a synergism between religion and science. On the one hand, it's commendable. On the other, I find it puzzling and even disturbing.

I honestly see it this way - if you are going to disregard and not believe in one portion of the Bible, why accept ANY of it? Surely any rational person can understand a simple statement such as this. If God was wrong in the beginning, then why are we following any of what He is said to have written? Because we are afraid of hell? Because we were taught to believe a certain thing? Because it makes us feel better? What is it?

I don't know what you were expecting. Someone to appear here and give an amazing revelation from science on how Creation is true? How am I supposed to do that? :/
 
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Assyrian

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er72 said:
If God was wrong in the beginning
What makes you think God would have been wrong, rather than speaking to people in metaphors and pictures that could understand? That is how the Son of God loved to speak, in parables and metaphors. If the Genesis creation accounts aren't literal, maybe it isn't God who got it wrong, but the people who mistakenly interpreted it literally.
 
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er72

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What makes you think God would have been wrong, rather than speaking to people in metaphors and pictures that could understand? That is how the Son of God loved to speak, in parables and metaphors. If the Genesis creation accounts aren't literal, maybe it isn't God who got it wrong, but the people who mistakenly interpreted it literally.

So, we're using science to interpret the Bible, rather than the other way around? (I thought the Bible was God's word. If it is, then shouldn't what God says have jurisdiction over what man finds through science?)

The danger here, though, is that where do we stop at interpretting the Bible through (nothing but) metaphor? Maybe Jesus is a metaphor? Perhaps heaven and hell are metaphors? Could God be a metaphor as well? You see the problems here.
 
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Mallon

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I'm lost. I'm not labeling anybody as anything. I simply stated a fact - and that was that the views expressed appear to be deistic in nature. Nothing more.

I'm very confused by what you said. I don't believe in evolution. I believe in the Bible. So, why are you throwing random scriptures at me? I point you to Genesis 1 - 3. Please tell me where in the Bible it states that never happened or where it says the creation story is merely a fable or a myth.

If you're going to throw the beginning of the Bible out the window, you might as well do so with the rest of it. Why pick and choose?
Why are you accusing others of picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible when you yourself appear to pick and choose what to believe about it? For example, you reject those verses I cited earlier that speak of God's constant providence in nature. That's what's at issue here -- how one views God's action in the world -- not evolution. You appear to be trying to avoid that.
 
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er72

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Why are you accusing others of picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible when you yourself appear to pick and choose what to believe about it? For example, why do you reject those verses I cited earlier that speak of God's constant providence in nature. That's what's at issue here -- how one views God's action in the world -- not evolution. You appear to be trying to avoid that.

If someone can provide me with some decent answers on God's existence (as mentioned specifically within the Christian faith), how sin, morality and evolution coincide, then I would be content.

We cannot use the Bible, if we are not going to accept what it says. That is far too selective and biased. If we're just going to quote scripture to prove our arguments and suit out own needs, don't bother. That is an exercise in futility, no more.

It is mere assumption to think God intervenes in any way (since we cannot use the Bible). The atheists use evolution to demonstrate there is no God or gods. The universe can exist, they say, without deity or deities. Maybe they're right?
 
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Assyrian

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So, we're using science to interpret the Bible, rather than the other way around? (I thought the Bible was God's word. If it is, then shouldn't what God says have jurisdiction over what man finds through science?)
Nothing wrong with using reality to help us inderstand the bible, after all God created it all. But it wouldn't be the first time scientific discoveries changed the way we interpreted the bible, before Copernicus everybody thought the bible said the sun went round the earth. When science showed us this was wrong, we had to go back and find better ways to understand the bible. Worth pointing out though, science does not tell us how to interpret the bible, it just tells us if we have got our interpretation wrong.

The danger here, though, is that where do we stop at interpretting the Bible through (nothing but) metaphor? Maybe Jesus is a metaphor? Perhaps heaven and hell are metaphors? Could God be a metaphor as well? You see the problems here.
Not a problem, it is a false dichotomy. No one says we have to take everything metaphorically, and very few want to take everything literally. The bible is a mixture of literal and metaphorical and a proper understanding of scripture will have both. The only question is figuring out which is which.
 
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