If life begins at conception, why doesn’t citizenship in the US begin at conception?

[lsume]

The 14th Amendment of the US Constitution provides that “[a]ll persons born...in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” So, if life begins at conception, why doesn’t citizenship begin at conception?

 

[lsume]

Sorry, I needed to pray before posting. Prayerfully I removed it in time.

 

[RaymondG]

It is in my opinion.

Is self defense and the death penalty, murder, in your opinion? It is ok to use terms are they are defined by law, or should everyone talk based only on personal opinions. How productive can any conversation be we no one know when we are speaking opinions or legal facts?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

life support.

Who would pull a healthy body off life support?
M

 

[Arc F1]

Is self defense and the death penalty, murder, in your opinion? It is ok to use terms are they are defined by law, or should everyone talk based only on personal opinions. How productive can any conversation be we no one know when we are speaking opinions or legal facts?

Self Defense, I would have to say no. Death penalty, yes because you took another's life without cause. Better to send the flesh to hell. Opinions or legal facts? I stated "my opinion."

 

[RaymondG]

Who would pull a healthy body off life support?
M

One fact, seldom remembered in discussions like these, is that God is the giver and taker of all life. And His support is not, so easily, pulled by man.

 

[SPF]

Self Defense, I would have to say no. Death penalty, yes because you took another's life without cause. Better to send the flesh to hell. Opinions or legal facts? I stated "my opinion."

You might not agree with the cause that resulted in the death penalty, but surely you don't actually believe that people who receive the death penalty are doing so without cause.

 

[Arc F1]

You might not agree with the cause that resulted in the death penalty, but surely you don't actually believe that people who receive the death penalty are doing so without cause.

The death penalty is a hard thing to answer. It's easy to give an opinion but a whole different story if faced with the reality of it.

 

[RaymondG]

You need to put forth a working definition of "murder". Then, we can look at the definition, and see what situations the term can be applied to. It isn't actually that difficult. Would you like to put forth a working definition of murder for us?

When I hear murder..... I think of gang violence.....a drunk driver killing an innocent bystander....armed robberies...and a host of other things....When I hear abortion, I think only of the termination of the unborn. Only them.

Now what would be the motives behind changing the term used to describe their situation, to a general term that apply to a host of other people and situations? Why should their plight get lost in a bigger category because you just dont feel like using the word created for them?

How does it help them to say that the same thing that happened to a criminal, executed for his crimes, happens to the unborn?

Forgive me if I wish for no one to be confused when I discuss the termination of the unborn. Forgive me if I choose to use the word created for them, which cannot be applied to any other form of death.... For this topic is just that important to me.

 

[RaymondG]

Self Defense, I would have to say no. Death penalty, yes because you took another's life without cause. Better to send the flesh to hell.

Yes, opinions on what is and isnt murder will vary from person to person. This is why have different terms (like abortion, self defense, execution, vehicular manslaughter etc..) to intelligently talk about each situation without having to alway ask for extra details.

There is nothing wrong with calling abortion, abortion.

Opinions or legal facts? I stated "my opinion."

When people, like me, use abortion in these threads, we are stating the legal definition, without personal opinions and feelings added.

 

[RaymondG]

You might not agree with the cause that resulted in the death penalty, but surely you don't actually believe that people who receive the death penalty are doing so without cause.

Have you never heard of cases of exoneration for people who were once on death row? Had they gone on the die, it would had been without cause.

There is no better example of premeditated ending of life, than the death penalty. Dates are set, and the termination carried out just like with abortion.

Why is it hard to separate the two acts with the terms created for them, instead of putting them both in the same category of murder?

 

[Arc F1]

Yes, opinions on what is and isnt murder will vary from person to person. This is why why have different terms (like abortion, self defense, execution, vehicular manslaughter etc..) to intelligently talk about each situation without having to alway ask for extra details.

There is nothing wrong with calling abortion, abortion.


When people, like me, use abortion in these threads, we are stating the legal definition, without personal opinions and feelings added.

I agree legally abortion is abortion if it is legal in that state. If it isn't its a form of murder. Even that can be argued because then its a legal matter of when life begins.
personally, I'm against abortion.

 

[RaymondG]

I agree legally abortion is abortion if it is legal in that state. If it isn't its a form of murder. Even that can be argued because then its a legal matter of when life begins.

I disagree. Abortion is a term created to describe the termination of an unborn child...and is unrelated to the legality of the act. It will be considered abortion, whether or not it is legal to do it.....and whether or not i, personally, liken it to murder.

personally, I'm against abortion.

I have not met one person who was for abortion. Have you?

DO you feel that those who prefer to use the legal term, so that the topic of conversation is understood, are for abortion?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Proof of this please. I am a lawyer and I have never heard of a state having jurisdiction simply because a child was conceived there.

This isn't a state but when I was in the army I became pregnant with my 1st child. The post I was stationed at had some crude ranking leaders there and they would order me to perform things that were harmful to me and the baby...my husband came and spoke with company commander and informed him that the child I was carrying was a ward of the government because of her native heritage and that if any harm came to her the Pawnee Nation would bring charges against them.
Funny how the next day I was released for maternity leave.
That was back in the early 80's during a time when the Native Americans formed an organization that protected its citizens from discrimination and governing laws that contradicted their natural heritage or way of life.
In fact in my home town our high school was challenged in court because of a student who refused to cut his hair and be in compliance with the dress code.
The student won his case.

 

[Arc F1]

I disagree. Abortion is a term created to describe the termination of an unborn child...and is unrelated to the legality of the act. It will be considered abortion, whether or not it is legal to do it.....and whether or not i, personally, liken it to murder.

I have not met one person who was for abortion. Have you?

DO you feel that those who prefer to use the legal term, so that the topic of conversation is understood, are for abortion?

No, I don't think those using the legal definition are for abortion. I hope I didn't imply that. I have met lots of people who are pro-abortion. Of course, they like to say women's rights. It's not the words that bother me its the end result. In society, we tend to use words to sway opinion. Women's rights sounds better than abortion etc.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then what do you call the premeditated killing of a human life?

This is a very valid point.

 

[JacksBratt]

The advantage the poster is considering for the baby by being considered a citizen at conception is that no one would have the right to kill it before it was born. The problem with the argument the OP is proposing does not are rise form the fact babies die before they are born it arises from the fact that we cannot legally murder non citizens any more than we can legally murder citizens. Therefore it is not a lack of citizenship that is the basis for abortion being legal.

Well done.

 

[redleghunter]

The advantage the poster is considering for the baby by being considered a citizen at conception is that no one would have the right to kill it before it was born. The problem with the argument the OP is proposing does not are rise form the fact babies die before they are born it arises from the fact that we cannot legally murder non citizens any more than we can legally murder citizens. Therefore it is not a lack of citizenship that is the basis for abortion being legal.

Actually he is pro abortion and believes only life is protected after birth.

He’s being clever to show people that since a human being in the womb is not a citizen we can do whatever we want with them.

If that is the case it would be just as fine to invoke the 14th Amendment to deny legal and illegal immigrants life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

He’s trying to catch folks in a quandary.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Because that would require the country to legally protect Americans during the first nine months of their lives, and congressmen are scared silly of what would happen to them if they did what is morally right in this case. How do they explain that a child born at 7 months is a human being, yet a child unborn at 9 months is not? Can a change of location cause a change in who or what someone is?

 

[RaymondG]

This is a very valid point.

Is not the execution of a person for crime committed, the "premeditated killing of a human life?"

ARe you saying that it is valid to just call this murder instead of the name given to this act?